Bench Svenskeren or teach him to communicate.

JavelinJoe·Mar 21, 2016·4 votes·2,178 views

Why is he diving 1v5 as an initiator when no one can even help him escape or follow up on is engage. He does it multiple times as well. He has the right mindset as what he needs to do and how to do it. But he has no idea of when. He seems to be lacking in communication or patience because no one seems ready for his engages, mostly on the side of TSM.

On a separate note, objectively,TSM seems to think Baron, the most damaging and tanky neutral objective in the game, is a requirement to win. Baron throws more games than it help to secure a win. So unless you have full vision control, and know that there is no way that it can be contested, dont fight it, especially if you will want to fight if it does gets contested.

46 Comments

YCitizenSnipsYMar 21, 20162 votes

Lol get rid of him. He was the jungler of a regulated team in EU. He was never good to begin with and is even worse now than he used to be. Not worth 5.5 fucking K, or a spot on any team.

Ale non è maleMar 21, 20162 votes

{quoted} **He was never good to begin with **

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

YCitizenSnipsYMar 21, 20161 votes

He doesn't belong in a top 5 or top 10 list of junglers form the last 3 years. Just a shitty junlger from a shitty region. I mean I guess he was maybe good in EU, who's only claim to fame in the jungle role is Daimond. But he sucks compared to real junglers.

Ale non è maleMar 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

He doesn't belong in a top 5 or top 10 list of junglers form the last 3 years. Just a shitty junlger from a shitty region. I mean I guess he was maybe good in EU, who's only claim to fame in the jungle role is Daimond. But he sucks compared to real junglers.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH From start of S4 to Spring S5 he was top 3 Western jungler in every single split. Summer S5 he got caught into the whole SK mess (SK that kept falling down and now is out of CS too) This is the first split when he is truly disappointing, but the entire TSM roster is disappointing, as everyone is playing below their potential, and this includes guys world class/potentially world class level like Bjergsen, Doublelift, Yellowstar

Keep your facts straight. This is the third straight jungler that underperforms under TSM banner Since Bjergsen joined NA, no TSM jungler has played up to his potential, and we are at 3 different junglers (including the jungler he played together with in EU) + OddOne for which we won't know since he was yet on his way for retirement. Until Bjergsen was dominating mid lane enough to make it worthy, it was acceptable, but now that even NA mid lane competition has catched up to Bjergsen, you got to question if he is really the true problem here.

YCitizenSnipsYMar 26, 20161 votes

"Top three western jungler" is trash. This split in both EU and NA KR import junglers got MVP. Western junglers are trash. Hell even the two SKT subs from last year to now, Tom and Blank, look better than he ever did.

Ale non è maleMar 27, 20161 votes

AHAHAHAH Nice way to change argument when you got to the canvas and can't answer anymore after being caught on your bullcrap To say that Sven has never good to begin with was just plain wrong. He was as good as the other guys in TSM roster are compared to the scene they belong, and I don't see you questioning them, so why are you focusing on just one guy? It's the same thing you had with incarnati0n last season, put all the blame on the new guy for what were team problems, and then you got proved wrong when C9 solved their internal problems

YCitizenSnipsYMar 28, 20161 votes

Never changed my argument. I said Sven was never a good jungler. You replied that he was top 3 in the west. Thats what I said, not a good jungler. Top 3 western jungler is trash.

Incarnation hasn't proven a thing yet. They got dicked at their only international tournament they prepared a month for, while H2K was a 2 day old team. And Ryu demolished Incarnation/Jensen. I don't care how good he looks in shitty NA. I've said it before and I'll say it again, C9 will never have the same international success they have had with the original roster.

Ale non è maleMar 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Never changed my argument. I said Sven was never a good jungler. You replied that he was top 3 in the west. Thats what I said, not a good jungler. Top 3 western jungler is trash.

Except this IS changing argument, or being just really dumb Bjegrsen was worse among Western players than what Sven has been in the same time span. He has made his junglers perform worse than what they could in all his TSM splits. Why you are not giving him flak but you are giving Sven flak? To clarify, these are team wide synergy problems. When a guy ike Yellowstar who has had success with multiple line-ups and metas in his career is having mot mechanic but synergy problems these are not issues of a single player performance, because all the TSM members have more than enough talent to do great in NA and Western scene, which they are sturggling in right now

Incarnation hasn't proven a thing yet. They got dicked at their only international tournament they prepared a month for, while H2K was a 2 day old team. And Ryu demolished Incarnation/Jensen. I don't care how good he looks in shitty NA. I've said it before and I'll say it again, C9 will never have the same international success they have had with the original roster.

Incarnati0n has proven he was NOT the C9 problem. Which prove you wrong about him Jin Air was dicked by CLG in a pre season tournament doing far worse than what C9 did vs H2k , do this say that they are terrible? This is full of non-sense Incarnati0n appear to be a very good Western midlaner, and capable of doing well in teams C9 original roster couldn't replace anymore thier success because their guys got older and far worse than what they were in S4 when they had their peak performance (and really NA all-time peak performance), to the point that Lemon decided to retire, Meteos is basically retired, Hai had to shift to less mechanically proving roles and had to be recalled while he is actually planning to retire when C9 replacement at support will be ready, and Balls is holding on cause C9 has no valuable replacement for him in a really bad NA top laner scene, and in Spring S5 they showed just that being really bad and managing to get 2nd place only cause NA was terribad back then, so you were just SUUUUPER delusional they replaced some members on the original roster and put the blame on "the new EU guy that ruin the All-American team success", which is just proving to be wrong

YCitizenSnipsYMar 30, 20161 votes

Two imported KR junlgers just took MVP of both western regions this split, and you think me calling western junglers trash is dumb? Ok.

Incarnation only looks good with Hai. How quick you are to forget that both of the games Hai didn't play at the beginning of the split were losses. C9 without Hai cant even win domestically, back in all stars 2014 they didn't have Hai and still had a good run. C9 could win more games without Incarnation than without Hai. I promise you if they subbed Hai in the mid and put bunny at support they would still have the record they do.

Also I wouldn't call Jin Air trash because they didn't pass on the first IEM like C9 did and played with a new roster. They also went on to be currently 2nd in the strongest region in the world. C9 had a month to prepare for IEM, H2K was two days old. Ryu > Incarnation on two days practice.

Ale non è maleMar 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Two imported KR junlgers just took MVP of both western regions this split, and you think me calling western junglers trash is dumb? Ok

Uhm yes? Because some western junglers are trash compared to top international competition, some are good, just like in any other role In S5 Amazing at Worlds with OG was able to compete fairly well with the junglers of the rest of the world, so generally the top Western junglers can old their own vs the top international competition, exactly like what happen in the other roles, and Sven was undoubtely in the time span mentioned before a top Western jungler, and heck, at S4 Worlds after his ban ended he performed fairly well

Incarnation only looks good with Hai. How quick you are to forget that both of the games Hai didn't play at the beginning of the split were losses. C9 without Hai cant even win domestically, back in all stars 2014 they didn't have Hai and still had a good run. C9 could win more games without Incarnation than without Hai. I promise you if they subbed Hai in the mid and put bunny at support they would still have the record they do.

This happened because of two reasons: _Hai has never been that good mechanically

They subbed Hai with Link who had basically the same kind of role in his CLG squad

C9 basically went at All-Stars 2014 with a guy that could substitute Hai role (obviously with less synergy, but he had maybe 1 week to prepare with the team), and probably even be an upgrade mechanically

Hech, you are even contraddicting yourself mentioning those 2014 All-Stars, because C9 even with their historic roster could win vs very strong teams WITHOUT Hai, as long as they had osmeone who could fill his role (in that case Link)

There is no doubt that as individual player incarnati0n is a far better mid laner right now than what HAi would even be, so you are utterly delusional in claiming that with Hai mid and Bunny support C9 would actually win more games Lokking ahead, C9 needs to swap out some of the guys that do not contribute at all with the information flow when doing the shotcalling and istant decision making to allow Hai to finally step down, and looking at the hint given by previous interviews, the moment where they could find a replacement for Balls (him and Sneaky are the ones that talk less, and Sneaky is more talented and in a role that require less shotcalling abilities), they could finally put in Bunny and allow Hai to retire as the most successful NA player to date

Also I wouldn't call Jin Air trash because they didn't pass on the first IEM like C9 did and played with a new roster. They also went on to be currently 2nd in the strongest region in the world. C9 had a month to prepare for IEM, H2K was two days old. Ryu > Incarnation on two days practice.

No, ti was H2K > C9. And mid-adc were the rolse when you could see the least difference in talent between the teams, so once again using YOUR own logic, incarnation looked good and you look dumb now

YCitizenSnipsYMar 31, 20161 votes

No the top western junglers don't match up to top KR ones internationally. Amazing didn't do shit compared to Bengi at worlds, which is why they lost 3-0 to an SKIT that didn't even start their best player the first two games. They have never stacked up to KR junglers, in fact to use your own example, Amazing is also blamed for the loss to SSW in season 4. I'll say it again two KR imports are the best two junglers in the western region right now, and KR junglers have been undeniably better than western junglers for 3 years now.

Tell me how many games C9 has won starting Incarnation without Hai in the line up, is it 2/10 right now. Your just an EU fanboy that hates to hear how bad EU players really are, Incarantion got shit on by Ryu with two days to practice with his team. But hey you should be used to KR imports shitting on western players by now. And he still will never be good enough to challenge KR teams I mean at least the old C9 team put up a fight against SSB. C9 would have looked worse than OG or FNC, had they had to play SKT or KOO in a Bo5.

Ale non è maleApr 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No the top western junglers don't match up to top KR ones internationally. Amazing didn't do shit compared to Bengi at worlds, which is why they lost 3-0 to an SKIT that didn't even start their best player the first two games. They have never stacked up to KR junglers, in fact to use your own example, Amazing is also blamed for the loss to SSW in season 4. I'll say it again two KR imports are the best two junglers in the western region right now, and KR junglers have been undeniably better than western junglers for 3 years now.

They don't match with the top 3-4, they match up with the others. Bengi was THE top jungler at the Worlds, so it's like arguing that Huni doesn't keep up with top international top laners because he got destroyed by Smeb In S4 the whole TSm roster didn't stand a chance against the Samsung win, and the only agme they won was a blatantly tropp pick/ban by SSW Kr junglers have been undeniably better than western jungler, no one is arguing that, but top western jungle can match up the mid of the pack KR players

Tell me how many games C9 has won starting Incarnation without Hai in the line up, is it 2/10 right now. Your just an EU fanboy that hates to hear how bad EU players really are, Incarantion got shit on by Ryu with two days to practice with his team. But hey you should be used to KR imports shitting on western players by now. And he still will never be good enough to challenge KR teams I mean at least the old C9 team put up a fight against SSB. C9 would have looked worse than OG or FNC, had they had to play SKT or KOO in a Bo5.

Tell me how many game Balls and Sneaky have won without Hai in the line up Surprise suprise, it is the same number of game of Incarnati0n because they are the reason why C9 is so dependent on Hai about communications (you will find interviews over interviews when C9 players and staff says that Balls and Sneaky almost don't speak at all during gamesand so they need HAiIto shotcall for them all and to keep asking question to have the bare minimum of information needed for the team) Incarnati0n shit twice on GBM this season, a good, not washed up Korean import in NA. So "you should be used to KR imports shitting on western players by now." is...well.. not always true, obviously? The old C9 put up a fight against SSB, BUT, 4/5 OF THOSE PLAYERS HAVE REGRESSED. Stop pretending that if you put now the old C9 lineup they could do anything vs korean teams. 2 guys are retired, HAi had to shift to less stressing mechanical roles, and Balls had the peak of his career in 4$ and is now worse than at the time (and he is better now than in S5, eh) "C9 would have looked worse than OG or FNC, had they had to play SKT or KOO in a Bo5." Because no team in the world except Korean teams was on OG or FNC level in S5? And this not only looking at 9, but to the Chinese, LMS, NA, EU, Wildcard, non qualified to World Korean teams?

CroaninApr 2, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=npft71QG,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-02T22:52:40.029+0000)

They don't match with the top 3-4, they match up with the others. Bengi was THE top jungler at the Worlds, so it's like arguing that Huni doesn't keep up with top international top laners because he got destroyed by Smeb In S4 the whole TSm roster didn't stand a chance against the Samsung win, and the only agme they won was a blatantly tropp pick/ban by SSW Kr junglers have been undeniably better than western jungler, no one is arguing that, but top western jungle can match up the mid of the pack KR players

Tell me how many game Balls and Sneaky have won without Hai in the line up Surprise suprise, it is the same number of game of Incarnati0n because they are the reason why C9 is so dependent on Hai about communications (you will find interviews over interviews when C9 players and staff says that Balls and Sneaky almost don't speak at all during gamesand so they need HAiIto shotcall for them all and to keep asking question to have the bare minimum of information needed for the team) Incarnati0n shit twice on GBM this season, a good, not washed up Korean import in NA. So "you should be used to KR imports shitting on western players by now." is...well.. not always true, obviously? The old C9 put up a fight against SSB, BUT, 4/5 OF THOSE PLAYERS HAVE REGRESSED. Stop pretending that if you put now the old C9 lineup they could do anything vs korean teams. 2 guys are retired, HAi had to shift to less stressing mechanical roles, and Balls had the peak of his career in 4$ and is now worse than at the time (and he is better now than in S5, eh) "C9 would have looked worse than OG or FNC, had they had to play SKT or KOO in a Bo5." Because no team in the world except Korean teams was on OG or FNC level in S5? And this not only looking at 9, but to the Chinese, LMS, NA, EU, Wildcard, non qualified to World Korean teams?

I'd like to see Meteos back in the line up, I feel like he and Hai just work so well together as teammates. And yeah Balls needs to retire, he was great S3 against the likes of Dyrus, but against people like Huni, no.

And I'm sorry but as long as C9 has Hai I will always be C9>TSM. I'm personally fed up with TSM entirely, tell what is the only team to qualify for every single World Championship? TSM! FNC being second only having missed Season 2. Yet unlike FNC everytime TSM go to Worlds they get RoFL stomped and make NA look like a joke. Post Season 1 they only made it out of groups once in S4 and got annihilated by Samsung. C9 at least put on a good show in S4 to make NA proud. And how far they got as underdogs in Season 5 was poetic.

Kudos to TSM though winning against C9, I expecting C9 to take it but Rush played like crap and their drafting was rather poor. (Stop playing Kindred ffs!) I wouldn't even be suprised to see TSM win the split, again. But that's just the story of TSM after their organization's coaches and anaylst figure out the meta and their oppenents TSM become dominate in their region. But they can't to adapt to the international meta on the fly which is required at Worlds and just get crushed.

Ale non è maleApr 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to see Meteos back in the line up, I feel like he and Hai just work so well together as teammates. And yeah Balls needs to retire, he was great S3 against the likes of Dyrus, but against people like Huni, no.

Meteos-Hai work really well together, but they have both problems that don't allow them to play effectively the position like they did at the peak moment of C9, when in S4 they were a world class team Hai, of course, is not good enough mechanically any more. He was never special to begin with, but with injuries, wear and tear, and new generations of upcoming midlaner he can't keep up mechanically any more as mid laner Meteos does only 1 thing in an excellent way, and it is farming the jungle. He was world class level only in S4 when farming in the jungler was at the most difficult point ever in LCS era, and so his super farming mechanics allowed him to use the advantage he got to overpower enemy jungler by the pure force of level/gold/item advantage. In all the other season, he has never been any good at international level because he doesn't excel in anything else really...and those times in farming the jungle won't return any more, so i don't see how meteos could rebound to those S4 level, indipendently from team problems To say that Balls great in S3 is really laughable. Balls sucked hard compared to Eu top laners S3, he beat Dyrus, but Dyrus got shit on too in S3. Heck, sOAZ won All-Star 1vs1 top laner competition in S3, and NA top laners in S3 were really terrble Balls's peak was in S4, when those mid range AP champs ala Rumble/Lulu/Ryze/Kayle domnated the top lane, and he is really proficient on those champs. It has never been good outside that season internationally

S4 was like a perfect storm for C9, where all the conditions aligned to have all the players at a good enough level to be competitive internationally - heck, probably Hai was the weakness in that lineup in S4 -, but those conditions can't be repeated now, so C9 need to move forward Balls need to retire not because he is so bad right now (he was in S5 but has rebounded some in S6, he is still bad but not a disgrace right now), but because his lack of communication force to keep Hai, who is another guy that at this point keep losing mechanical skills every moment it pass, and doesn't allow Bunny or another young support to step in

Kudos to TSM though winning against C9, I expecting C9 to take it but Rush played like crap and their drafting was rather poor. (Stop playing Kindred ffs!) I wouldn't even be suprised to see TSM win the split, again. But that's just the story of TSM after their organization's coaches and anaylst figure out the meta and their oppenents TSM become dominate in their region. But they can't to adapt to the international meta on the fly which is required at Worlds and just get crushed.

The problem of TSM at international level has net been only adaptation to meta, has been lack of raw talent compared to the top team out there too The meta problems surfaced because TSM was too good for NA competition, and was not forced to keep developping their strategy and their players skills to win In 2015 MSI, TSM was completely behind in meta, but Santorin too proved to be utterly bad compared to international competition and that he had not developped at all in TSM like he could/should have Dyrus has always been thought as the best NA hope to compete on top lane, and he got trashed by Eu top laners even season except S4 when Eu top laners weree at they worse (and he got stomped by Balls too) So, even if TSM could adapt to meta, they still retained a general problem of lack of talent

CroaninApr 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=npft71QG,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-02T23:35:33.794+0000)

Meteos-Hai work really well together, but they have both problems that don't allow them to play effectively the position like they did at the peak moment of C9, when in S4 they were a world class team Hai, of course, is not good enough mechanically any more. He was never special to begin with, but with injuries, wear and tear, and new generations of upcoming midlaner he can't keep up mechanically any more as mid laner Meteos does only 1 thing in an excellent way, and it is farming the jungle. He was world class level only in S4 when farming in the jungler was at the most difficult point ever in LCS era, and so his super farming mechanics allowed him to use the advantage he got to overpower enemy jungler by the pure force of level/gold/item advantage. In all the other season, he has never been any good at international level because he doesn't excel in anything else really...and those times in farming the jungle won't return any more, so i don't see how meteos could rebound to those S4 level, indipendently from team problems To say that Balls great in S3 is really laughable. Balls sucked hard compared to Eu top laners S3, he beat Dyrus, but Dyrus got shit on too in S3. Heck, sOAZ won All-Star 1vs1 top laner competition in S3, and NA top laners in S3 were really terrble Balls's peak was in S4, when those mid range AP champs ala Rumble/Lulu/Ryze/Kayle domnated the top lane, and he is really proficient on those champs. It has never been good outside that season internationally

S4 was like a perfect storm for C9, where all the conditions aligned to have all the players at a good enough level to be competitive internationally - heck, probably Hai was the weakness in that lineup in S4 -, but those conditions can't be repeated now, so C9 need to move forward Balls need to retire not because he is so bad right now (he was in S5 but has rebounded some in S6, he is still bad but not a disgrace right now), but because his lack of communication force to keep Hai, who is another guy that at this point keep losing mechanical skills every moment it pass, and doesn't allow Bunny or another young support to step in

The problem of TSM at international level has net been only adaptation to meta, has been lack of raw talent compared to the top team out there too The meta problems surfaced because TSM was too good for NA competition, and was not forced to keep developping their strategy and their players skills to win In 2015 MSI, TSM was completely behind in meta, but Santorin too proved to be utterly bad compared to international competition and that he had not developped at all in TSM like he could/should have Dyrus has always been thought as the best NA hope to compete on top lane, and he got trashed by Eu top laners even season except S4 when Eu top laners weree at they worse (and he got stomped by Balls too) So, even if TSM could adapt to meta, they still retained a general problem of lack of talent

Lack of raw talent is probably a thing, but that applies to NA as a whole. Yet C9 can still give teams a run for their money at the international level. They remind me a lot of the old M5 as a team that wasn't the strongest globally but warranted global respect. TSM's only prime player is Bjergsen, but when all other mid laners are amazing also it kind of nullifies him and other laners can't pick up.

But I don't know historically it just seems TSM has always had a weak jungler once they hit the international stage. I think it's something with the org. I mean Amazing was fine on FNC but seemed invisibile at S4 worlds

Ale non è maleApr 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lack of raw talent is probably a thing, but that applies to NA as a whole. Yet C9 can still give teams a run for their money at the international level. They remind me a lot of the old M5 as a team that wasn't the strongest globally but warranted global respect. TSM's only prime player is Bjergsen, but when all other mid laners are amazing also it kind of nullifies him and other laners can't pick up.

But I don't know historically it just seems TSM has always had a weak jungler once they hit the international stage. I think it's something with the org. I mean Amazing was fine on FNC but seemed invisibile at S4 worlds

It applies to Western regions as a whole, just apply to NA much more than EU where the dip in talent pool isn't as big as it is in NA between the best players in the region and the others and thus push the entire scene to be better C9 has never been like the old M5, it is just that they managed to have no significant liabilities (at least compared to the team in NA scene) when their histroic line-up was at their peak and so they could also going to compete with decent results internationally

TSM just doesn't seem to have their jungler to perform consistently when they have so dominant influence of mid position in their team, the shotcalling just go conflicting so the junglers performance are shaky, regardless of the jungler and his style

foinhasMar 21, 20162 votes

I'd rather blame double lift. in all teamfights TSM lost, db was in the wrong place. Hauntzer also played terrible this game.

Yordle XayahMar 21, 20162 votes

I mean... there's a reason why Doublelift was kicked off CLG. The dude plays for himself and his Pentakills, not for the team. Did you see him soloing Dragon for NO REASON when TSM had no vision control over Baron? NRG just walked up to it and took it.

Forg1ven used to be like him in SK, but then he moved to Gambit and learned to play for the team, and is now kicking ass in H2K, not playing just for himself. Doublelift is the exact same he was 2 years ago. I honestly feel people don't notice (or don't want to notice) the real big problem with DL... but George and Aphro sure did.

JavelinJoeMar 21, 20161 votes

Yeah DL isn't great when it comes to the word "team", but at least he is reliable to do good, where as Sven is not. 2 times that last game he went over the baron pit wall only to be killed by NRG before TSM could follow up. At least DL got the dragon.

Yordle XayahMar 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

but at least he is reliable to do good, where as Sven is not

While there's a great deal of truth to that... high mechanics alone (DL's Mechs are insane) aren't just good enough for LCS level of play. Thus why I think TSM either has to get rid of DL, or form a team that's willing to play 100% for him, and win that way, like old CLG used to, which would also mean roster swaps.

JavelinJoeMar 21, 20161 votes

lol yeah. Sad as it is, this type of thing has almost become a staple of TSM. TSM: A world renown team whose known for their multiple NA victories, many trips to Worlds, and their ability to compleatly shit the bed when AHEAD 9-1 and an inhib while being able to win in most other not-totally-one-sided games. TSM = Totally got this! Still might got this? Maybe we dont got this?

B00B00Mar 21, 20162 votes

if he cannot be relied upon to play as a team he is by definition of competitive TEAM play not reliable.

gone are the days where mechanical ability and dominance was the be all and end all.

YumScrumptious96Mar 22, 20161 votes

He isn't the shotcaller for the team, someone told him to get Drag most likely as he has never been a shot caller and Bjerg and Yellowstar have been. He was Kalista so he could easily take it, seems like a normal call for a team that isn't communicating well.

Yordle XayahMar 22, 20162 votes

Ok so:

One: If he made the call, then he's being oblivious to the game and is playing like Solo Queue to get his Pentakills but hardly any wins. Two: If he didn't make the call, then he's being oblivious to the game, following a blind direction that made no sense when TSM had no vision control over Baron.

Either way, he isn't being a team player. Just doing what he wants, or following whatever blind derision he's told... and are you really going to tell me Doublelift would follow someone's direction blindly, knowing him? No. Of course not, and you know this to be true. That's why I'm sure he's who decided to do dragon.

I insist: There's a reason why he was kicked off CLG. He plays for himself, and the team better play for himself, cause he's Doublelift and will get a Penta and carry you... or solo Dragon while Bjerg gets killed and there's no vision in the Baron pit.

YumScrumptious96Mar 23, 20162 votes

I'm telling you that they enforce the fact that you listen to your shotcaller, otherwise bad shit happens. If someone told him to go for Drag and he did, you can't blame him for listening as he is supposed to do that and is being a good team player by doing it. Even if you don't follow the call it means your communication and order is terrible. DL was also the carry of CLG, everything was always put to getting him to win it, so he would have been the leader in terms of he can do what he wants since its him they are playing to. CLG most likely disliked this style and conflicts arose, either way, I didn't see anyone else stepping up to carry CLG like DL did. He most likely didn't make the call as he would not be a shotcaller under circumstances like these where they have veteran shotcallers. DL regardless of attitude knows to listen when needed and presumably has a better relationship with Regi and TSM than he did with CLG.

Yordle XayahMar 23, 20161 votes

I'm sorry, but if someone told him to go for Drag and he did, of course I can blame him. You may call the shot caller a fool, but who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?

If someone else made that call, he should have said "No, there's no vision control around Baron. I can't go Dragon"... but that's even implying DL would follow directions from someone else, which I don't believe.

And sorry to bust your bubble but CLG clearly doesn't need DL, as their comfortable second place and victory over Immortals clearly stand for their strength without DL.

You say TSM have veteran shot callers, but if you've watched any of the Mic Checks or conversations in TSM Legends, they are all screaming whatever and nobody follows directions, thing that adds up to my theory that he just decided to do the dragon cause he felt like doing so.

And coming back in a circle, if he was told to do it without vision around Baron and he just went off and did it without saying anything, then it's probably even worse. What a lazy excuse.

Either way, he doesn't work well in a team environment. Either get an ADC that can play for the team, or get rid of everyone else and get 4 guys that can play for DL and his pentakills so he can "carry". Because clearly that's the way to play competitive League of Legends in 2016. Like that's gonna win a game against Immortals, let alone a korean team.

Please...

YumScrumptious96Mar 23, 20161 votes

Dude, they teach you on every pro team, listen to the shot caller, the fool who follows? He's doing his job properly, blame him for TSM's shot calling, while were at it, let's blame GBM for NRG being 5th because he can't solo carry 1v9. CLG doesn't need DL now, they stopped playing like they did with him. Before DL was their carry, look at when they mirred in relegations a while ago, their strategy was named "Protect the Doublelift" because he would carry on hyper carries like Tristana. S5 he was their carry, Darshan is now their main carry. They switched strategies entirely, had they not, they would not be 2nd, as Stixxay is not as good as DL and can't hard carry like DL did. TSM does have veteran shot callers, Bjergsen and Yellowstar, you can't deny that yet you do. They do have communication issues as well, that's why its like that in Mic check and Legends. DL can follow another, you seem to have a skewed opinion on him, what's your problem with him? Seriously, he's a professional and he knows that to win games you don't fuck around with your team and not play properly. Lazy excuse? Dude you have no information what so ever on him, you didn't even know he isn't the shot caller. He does work well in a team environment, evidenced by CLG's first place in Summer, what he doesn't do is cooperate well outside of the game, as he and HotshotGG clearly had problems. He's still a pro and he knows how to play a TEAM GAME. He is an ADC that can play for the team, in fact all anyone talks about positively around TSM is DL, he's been carrying TSM for a while after Sven, Bjerg and Hauntzer have performed below expectations. Dude, seriously don't try to make an argument because you dislike one player and ignore facts, you look like an idiot.

Yordle XayahMar 23, 20161 votes

He's doing his job properly

You can't be serious on that. Every professional team knows that everyone has to feed information to the shot caller. If he can't do something as simple as saying "There's no vision control on Baron. I can't do Dragon" then I'm sorry but he's not "doing his job properly". If you watched the latest TSM Legends, you'll see how Regi is upset at the entire team after the Renegades loss, and he's also upset with DL, why cause guess what: He was not doing his job properly. Or what, you are gonna disagree with Regi too?

CLG obviously noticed that playing around a single player isn't the way to play competitively anymore. And I'm sorry, but a better player in LCS level is not necessarily the one with the most mechanics, but the one that provides the most for what the team they are in requires. Look at YellOwStar last year. His mechanics are average, but FNC got to Top 4 in the world under his leadership. Mechanics are nowhere near as important as you make them out to be at this level of play, and to that, I think Stixxay is doing as well as he could be doing in CLG, where DL is not in TSM.

And I'm sorry, but I don't think he knows how to win games. They lost to EVER in a ridiculous way at IEM. Proceed to lose to the last place of the table next week (Renegades) and then continue to lose a game with a 10K gold lead. Are those the signs of knowing how to win games to you?

As for proof, I've yet to see him play the way Forg1ven does. That is an example of someone who knows how to play for both himself, and for the team he's playing for. He used to be like DL back in his SK days, and that's what doomed that team at IEM last year. DL hasn't grown in that aspect. Just compare his performance in H2K to DL's in TSM. Even in Fantasy League Forg1ven's performance in points was higher, and without being as flashy as DL.

And I'm sorry but you have a problem. I do not dislike Doublelift for the sake of having a problem with him. I'm just stating what I think is a problem for TSM right now. Saying "He's been carrying TSM for a while now" is just missing the point. This lineup is not gonna play for DL, the only way he knows to Team Up. And because it's the only way he knows to play, he doesn't fit the team.

Either put 4 people around him that can work in that super dated "Protect the Doublelift" style and see where that takes them, or get someone who can play a different style.

And before you answer: If you expect to have a discussion with someone, don't call them insults, cause you start losing credibility. Resorting to insults is childish. And I'm not a dude.

YumScrumptious96Mar 23, 20161 votes

Dude, if the shotcaller tells him to do Baron, he doesn't argue, you aren't supposed to argue, it ruins the point of even having someone shot call. Doublelift is a good player, CLG didn't agree with having him and he was kicked, they also developed new strategies, you can't say they kicked DL out just because they wanted a new stategy while claiming something else before, before you say shit, your point infers this. They lost to Ever, then beat them later on in a best of 3. Every team has upsets happen to them, Alliance vs Kabum never should have happened, SKT vs Ever, the list goes on. Stixxay is not a better player, CLG members themselves say they are worried for him more so than anyone else on the team for playoffs. With Stixxay, they don't play around him because they simply can't. TSM in general is terrible, not just DL, he saved them when they played NRG (and later lost), Bjergsen has performed well below what's expected, Sven and Yellowstar, even Hauntzer. It takes time to adjust and TSM has not adjusted well, you can't blame one player for their whole team's faults. You think DL is TSM's only problem, you never mention anything else besides blaming him. Instead of getting someone else who isn't as good as NA's best ADC, a title given by others unto DL, get your team prepped during off-season, Yellowstar is not close to accustomed to DL aggressive win lane playstyle. TSM failed to prepare and it cost them. I will tell someone they seem like an idiot, as you call DL a fool, maybe you're a child then? You do seem like an idiot, and now you're trying to take that high-ground bullshit that you seem to think makes you a more intelligent individual, well its not working. I don't care what stance you take, you either act like an adult and stop using petty tactics while taking insults like idiot with stride like most humans do, or stop going to boards and starting arguments. As for you not being a dude, I did not make an assumption, I use the terms "dude" and "guys" as genderless, I don't think they need to have specific male connotations.

Yordle XayahMar 23, 20161 votes

https://youtu.be/lME5Irg91pA?t=13m7s

"I'm upset at all of you cause nobody stops and says Let's go and take this tower" So yeah, it's not about a single shot caller. Is about everyone doing whatever they want, like say... DL soloing a Dragon?

https://youtu.be/lME5Irg91pA?t=13m38s

"Doublelift goes mid, gives up waves" "That's like some Challenger Bronze shit"

You can say anything you want, except that DL is "doing his job properly" because if he was, his employer wouldn't have to say these things on his play.

YumScrumptious96Mar 23, 20161 votes

You know DL isn't the one who makes the calls regardless, this happened on old TSM too. Regi constantly had to tell them to make the calls, those calls are made by presumably Bjerg, or Yellowstar. As for the second one, they aren't entirely serious.

Yordle XayahMar 24, 20161 votes

Alright, I say: let's agree we don't agree.

Because while there's fair points to both sides and that can't be denied, we clearly have different ideas of what TSM need to break the curse they've been carrying during spring.

Now we'll have to see what happens for Playoffs, and even more... wonder if there'll be roster swaps at all for summer.

YumScrumptious96Mar 24, 20161 votes

Fair enough, as someone who dislikes TSM for what it is, the most popular brand that the "fans" always scream even if TSM isn't playing, which is annoying to me, I think they will for sure get a different jungler come summer.

LintheMar 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm telling you that they enforce the fact that you listen to your shotcaller, otherwise bad shit happens. If someone told him to go for Drag and he did, you can't blame him for listening as he is supposed to do that and is being a good team player by doing it. Even if you don't follow the call it means your communication and order is terrible. DL was also the carry of CLG, everything was always put to getting him to win it, so he would have been the leader in terms of he can do what he wants since its him they are playing to. CLG most likely disliked this style and conflicts arose, either way, I didn't see anyone else stepping up to carry CLG like DL did. He most likely didn't make the call as he would not be a shotcaller under circumstances like these where they have veteran shotcallers. DL regardless of attitude knows to listen when needed and presumably has a better relationship with Regi and TSM than he did with CLG.

Yea.. This...

I understand it's a little different because they have voice comms... But ever play a YoloQ game where you have 1 guy pinging baron, another drag, and a 3rd enemy inhib turret?... WTH??

Swïft HïkarïMar 22, 20161 votes

Kids shitting on DLift when he's been more team oriented than before this split. But we look at Svenskeren, who has been caught out more times than I can count on my hands, throwing away leads and losing tempo for the team, engaging without his team in 1v5 scenarios...

DLift was a problem in CLG because of his attitude around the team, and that was an ongoing thing. TSM's problem is a jungler who currently has "Rookie Rush Syndrome" where he acts before he thinks because he had a few good ults and narrow escapes and considers himself invincible.

JavelinJoeMar 22, 20161 votes

TSM's last good jungler was Amazing

Swïft HïkarïMar 22, 20161 votes

You mean the guy that threw game 4 against SSW in the QuarterFinals of Worlds 2014? >_> Sure thing.

YumScrumptious96Mar 22, 20161 votes

Impossible to throw against SSW, they just absolutely destroyed TSM. The only reason TSM won Game 3 was because SSW didn't try, in an interview, Mata said "Yeah we didn't really try that game" because they knew they would win Game 4 with ease. It was pretty much SSW having fun with the game doing what they wanted without care.

Swïft HïkarïMar 23, 20161 votes

Game 4 should not have lasted as long as it did then. TSM should not have been able to take an inhib and towers then. SSW were absolutely NOTORIOUS for getting overconfident and saying "Yeah we didn't try" is a load of shit. That was their biggest weakness in the regular season and they were bringing it on in the tournament. Go back and rewatch the end of that game. TSM had the mind game to win, but AMAZING pulled the trigger too early and hopped out when a minion wave was passing, giving SSW vision of TSM's call. Had he waited 2-3 seconds, SSW would have been pushed out far enough where they could neither recall in time nor run back to stop the nexus being taken.

Game 5 is impossible to dictate after that, but SSW showed their weakness, TSM capitalized on mistakes and bad aggression, but Amazing threw the game by not being patient.

YumScrumptious96Mar 23, 20161 votes

Wait, you responding to me or the other guy. I don't think TSM had a chance, I mean these guys 3-1'ed SHC which was way better than TSM. SSW simply new they were gonna win, they didn't play nearly as hard as they did against SSB, it was pretty much them letting it happen in knowledge they would win eventually. Why tire yourself out before the biggest match of your career?

Swïft HïkarïMar 23, 20161 votes

There is no excuse for sandbagging or dropping games in an INTERNATIONAL tournament. The more games you're forced to play, the more strategies and weaknesses you risk revealing. I'm not disagreeing that it was a 90-10 in favor of SSW, but this team was supposed to be the new SKT T1 K; they rolled easily through the regular season but still had that glaring issue of overconfidence, which costed them games.

Enter Worlds 2014. SSW is dominating, they look unstoppable. 2-0 and you say "Oh we got this guys, easy games"? No. You don't get the luxury of saying "We just know we'll win." Imp said himself he was really disappointed they dropped that game.

Why tire yourself out before the biggest match of your career?

Not sure if you've ever played in a tournament before, but playing MORE games is more exhausting than not, so you want to finish your series FASTER.

JavelinJoeMar 22, 20161 votes

Lol at least they made it to the quarter finals

SlappybiscuitMar 27, 20161 votes

How did amazing get his name? it certainly wasn't from playing league of legends.

The DeckownerMar 27, 20161 votes

nah theoddone is the last good jg in tsm

DrehirthMar 22, 20161 votes

Agreed. I don't watch all the games, but every game I have seen them in he's doing something stupid

The DeckownerMar 27, 20161 votes

the big issue with tsm is they used to revolve all around bjergson but now with doublelift and yellowstar they kinda give more resource to the adc and the support odes more shotcalling, there must have been some miscummunication in the team.