My thoughts on why Echo Fox Failed as a team

PhantomGG·Jul 23, 2016·3 votes·2,429 views

So i'm probably one of the few but I myself am a major Echo Fox fan, but despite being a fan i can completely understand why this team completely crumbled and shattered, and i can break it down into three simple reasons.

1-It is a rookie team for the most part 2-Their star player while great, was never a God Tier player 3-The Sudden sky rocket in quality in NA

1-It's a Rookie Team So let us look at the roster

First to get to the root of the problem let us talk about coaches However I'm not even gonna bother listing who they were this year, this year i think Echo Fox has had 4 coach switches, all of whom were never anyone impressive or famous, no one who is like the coach of H2K who has a great focus on macro game. Or someone like Dailor from Fnatic who knows how to bring out a players strengths. All the coaches from Echo Fox were simply mediocre people who were telling the players shit they already knew, the whole point of hiring a coach, is to have someone who can look at the game with new perspective and try to get his message out into the players to teach them something new. Be it Macro, mentality, Hidden Talents, and the coaches from Echo Fox have completely failed in this aspect, its no wonder why shot calling and macro is Echo Foxes greatest weakness. Now let me tell you a little Fact, all the top 4 teams in each region, also have the most intelligent coaches. This is not a coincidence.

Top-KFO, While KFO is more than likely a great player in challenger, he however has no LCS experience, until this year, and everyone knows that if you are new player into the LCS you need to be heavily coached so you can be informed on the differences in the environment and the strategies that form with it. And being how I just talked about how Echo Fox has no real coaches, or seniors excluding Froggen, and just the fact he is korean so you KNOW communication is a issue, KFO was basically left to suffer this season.

JG- Hard, also a rookie, a great player, but he is one of those guys where if he's on a good team, he will probably look good, but the moment he is on a bad team his weakness greatly show. He has a passive style, and is basically the Santoiran 2.0 You can't expect anything good from passive farm heavy junglers when they are on lesser teams.

Mid- Froggem, Froggen, a old eu legend, but I will keep this short, for I have a whole section where I want to talk about him individually.The TLDR, he is a great player, he always does something cool every game, but fact is, he was never a faker, or a xpeke, or a febivan, or a bjergsen, he is a strong player, a consistent player, but he isn't the player who will straight up solo carry. He is a good veteran, but not the veteran a team filled with Rookies would want.

ADC- Keith, same issues I have with Kieth are the same ones I have with Froggen, he is a good player, a consistant player, but will never solo carry. He will always be mediocore and nothing more

Support-Big, probabbly the largest weak link in team Echo Fox, this guy feeds every game, he never does anything spectacular, and his champion pool is so limited. You know what he is going to pick every game, and thus can easily counter strat against him. That being said, near no LCS experience.

So here we have a team with a bunch of rookies, not bad players, just young and fresh, the oldest player is Froggen, who has a history of doing bad with Rookies, and than no real coach. The problem with this line up as a whole is the fact that Froggen never will be a leader, it's not his personality, it just won't happen, Froggen needed a solid coach or support to back him up in that role, and it simply never happened. The line up could of easily been a solid line up, but it never was given the final piece to the puzzle.

2-The star Player while great, was never a God tier player

So we have a team with a bunch of Rookies right? A team with no legitmate coach? This is a fine tactic, for in sports whenever you see a line up like this, you will see a org invest all it's money into a single individual god tier player who will save the day every game. Basically you get a bunch of cheap contracts with low tier players than get a expensive contract that you can afford for a high tier player. If you follow sports besides the LCS than you are more than likely familiar with seeing this tactic from team owners. However the problem was, they simply had the wrong star player. Froggen is great, I love him, he is a old idol of mine, but the only time he was ever a God Tier player was during season one and two, than in season three he was good but nothing spectacular, season four he was amazing again, than in season five, he completely fell off, but most people blame that due to a bad roster he was in, which has some sense of truth. However his season six is just another repeat of season five. Froggen has a limited champion pool, and struggles to learn the new OP picks, while also not having the courage to bring out his best solo q champions into the LCS. For example did you know Froggens strongest champion is actually not Aniva but Yasuo and Ahri? (he says this openly in a interview with Thorrin) Froggen struggles to learn new champions, and lacks the courage to bring out the champions he does know onto the LCS stage. Froggen is a great player, but will only shine once you give him the proper coach and the proper team where he can feel safe on. Froggen is a great player, but has yet to show that he is a god tier player.

3-The Quality in the NA LCS improved BIG TIME

This is gonna be a short section but it's also a sign of good news for NA fans. After the spring split ended, a lot of teams felt like they should of performed better than they actually did. So the result was all the teams, even Phoenix/impulse, made major changes, they all did korean boot camps, some made minor roster swaps that made major team improvements and bottom line, NA simply became a scary region through a combination of practice and roster swaps. NA went try hard to become a better region. Honestly if Echo Fox existed a year ago they would of most likely been a top 5 or 4 team. Hell if they were in EU they would probably be a mid tier team. Just fact is, NA improved by a land slide, we are the second strongest region at the moment, and hell we even create a statement in what the support meta is. Echo Fox is not a bad team, NA is simply in a state where it's either be the best or get relegated. Hell let's look at who is on the low standings

Apex- Who has the legendary support who was once hailed as the best support in NA, XSpecial, than Keane in the mid lane, both of these players who were at one point in the carreer on top tier teams

NRG-Has old school favorites like QUAS and Kiwikid, Quas once seen as the best American top laner, who was on Liquid, than Kiwikid while never a legend, has defiantly earned the respect of his peers, staying in the LCS every season since season 1. Not to mention it has legendary mid laner GBM from korea.

To put it simple, OUR LOW TIER TEAMS, have LEGENDARY players on their rosters. IF low tier teams with High tier players are struggling just to stay in the middle of the latter, than a roster with all Rookies simply does not stand a chance, unless they pull a Reignover/Huni and prove they are legends right out of nowhere.

NA is a scary region, where every roster, even ECHO fox, has a player you have to respect and fear. NA atm is be the best or get relegated

and this is why Ech Fox completely crumbled in the summer split and is most likely to get relegated.

-To many rookies -Froggen unable to step up -NA is simply to strong as a region to allow lower players a chance

14 Comments

III BAKURYU III Jul 23, 20162 votes

I can't agree more with your post and most if not all your comments.

Echo Fox are a young team that to be honest the players must have known that they couldn't really do much. Get a few wins sure get to Playoffs HELL NO.

Everyone are crying about how Froggen is never on a good team which "may" be true its far from the truth.
His Alliance days he (Hand picked) his teammates sure if he had a choice to pick all the top tier players at their roles he would have but he had a decent team that won a EU split and made it to worlds.

Froggen must have known that he wouldn't have a Top TIER team in his first season in NA, was he expecting D-Lift or Bjergsen or someone to join him?
Echo Fox is a young Company/Org/Team. This team NEEDS TO KEEP THE SAME COACH. Pick a decent coach and KEEP THEM, or the team will not grow.
Locodoco was he the Greatest Coach who ever lived for TSM (LOL-NO!) but he was good enough and he was on TSM for like 2 years and it really helped the team grow and become better as a whole.

IF Froggen wants to leave that is fine but try to keep the same players on Fox together they have a few splits under their belts and they can only get better from here on out.

Froggen was he the best Mid in EU back in 2013 no. Xpeke-BJergsen-Alex was a pretty good competition to overshadow him. Froggen just isn't a "carry" player like you said, I can't remember when he really carried a game. PLEASE don't show me a 2011-2013 Froggen game where the game is 1hr45mins long where he "carried" and had 22 kills who CAN'T CARRY A GAME that is 2 hours long?

His method of playing 2 hours and just farm up for SUPER LATE GAME method is really the PAST.
League is a 20-Min team based group early get 2-3 dragons, F8ck Farm and WIN type of game now. League use to be a farm heavy with games lasting around the 44 min mark now its a group early and Mortal KOmbat style game and Froggen just doesn't see that.

Froggen as a shoot caller is Good, but his teammates literally don't do ANYTHING without HIS say so. They ONLY protect him: they will all protect a 1-50 Froggen and not a 49-1 Keith.

He is too far in the past either he can't comprehend it or he just doesn't know how to Stop worrying about having 500 cs and just fight early.

That is why Echo Fox as a Team are doing bad

anonymous119Jul 23, 20161 votes

I don't think froggen is a bad player, but he is out of meta at the moment and has adjusted horribly to it. I think a lot of the older players don't adjust as well as new players to meta shifts.

It felt like they constantly didn't know what to be doing as a team. There was no tiered objective list that they were working towards. You see kind of the homeless shuffle where every one sat mid pacing back and forth waiting for some thing to happen so they could react.

I personally believe when a team fails at macro that is more on the organization then the individual players. That's not to say there aren't mechanical mistakes, but they as a team have a lot of fundamental problems beyond that. I see no sign of understanding win conditions, rotations and how to trade objectives to stay in the game when behind. Their wins look more like the other team making a mistake then echo fox playing well.

Replace the coaching staff before you start replacing players.

GigaPubeJul 23, 20161 votes

you're probably right, especially about the meta. when the team got their full team back towards the end of the split they climbed up to the neutral 7th spot with some impressive wins. i thought along with the new renegades turnaround, they'd both make playoffs this split but i guess we can only blame the meta for this change. It was a pretty drastic change, and even anivia is now seeing lots of play, but froggens 3:1 on it, and its probably been permabanned ever since

GigaPubeJul 23, 20161 votes

i dunno how you specifically mention you're an echo fox fan, and you blame froggen for the teams troubles at all. have you watched every single game of theirs? do you understand what the specific problems are? if you're saying froggen wasnt a "superstar", why would you say he should've stepped up, a team with 4 and a half rookies shouldnt be anywhere near playoffs, no? froggen not as good as xpeke or febiven? whys that? how are you measuring these claims? whats your basis? seriously, i dont get whats being said here, something or everything doesnt add up....

BigBellBruteJul 23, 20161 votes

Have you seen Xpeke lately? He is but a shadow of himself and his team is in complete disarray. Leaderless, rudderless and sitting 9th in a considerably weaker region. Sad to see really.

anonymous119Jul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Have you seen Xpeke lately? He is but a shadow of himself and his team is in complete disarray. Leaderless, rudderless and sitting 9th in a considerably weaker region. Sad to see really.

OG has gone through some thing like 5 coaches very recently and it just seems like a completely dysfunctional approach to management. They did a mic check with the pre-game from the current OG coach and he was practically shouting the most basic mechanics in the game to the players who clearly looked like they gave 0 fucks about what he was saying.

A coach needs to be an authority figure and when you replace them that frequently then it becomes more acceptable for players to ignore what the coach says. There was an article recently that basically described that xpeke's mother is running much of the organization with absolutely no idea what she is doing. It's a similar problem to echo fox where they have an organizational problem that's making it impossible to fix in game macro play.

PhantomGGJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

OG has gone through some thing like 5 coaches very recently and it just seems like a completely dysfunctional approach to management. They did a mic check with the pre-game from the current OG coach and he was practically shouting the most basic mechanics in the game to the players who clearly looked like they gave 0 fucks about what he was saying.

A coach needs to be an authority figure and when you replace them that frequently then it becomes more acceptable for players to ignore what the coach says. There was an article recently that basically described that xpeke's mother is running much of the organization with absolutely no idea what she is doing. It's a similar problem to echo fox where they have an organizational problem that's making it impossible to fix in game macro play.

Honestly Rick is a great guy and has nothing but love for his players, he pays his players well, and gives them a great environment, the problem was he went into this business with very little help, and failed to find the right people to do research for him in who the best coaches and analysts are. Echo Fox being relegated will be a huge loss for NA, for we will lose a ORG that actually gives a fuck about it's players. And in NA we have a HUGE history of abusive team owners whom have been banned from the LCS, probably more than any other region.

anonymous119Jul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Honestly Rick is a great guy and has nothing but love for his players, he pays his players well, and gives them a great environment, the problem was he went into this business with very little help, and failed to find the right people to do research for him in who the best coaches and analysts are. Echo Fox being relegated will be a huge loss for NA, for we will lose a ORG that actually gives a fuck about it's players. And in NA we have a HUGE history of abusive team owners whom have been banned from the LCS, probably more than any other region.

I guess I just don't understand what analysts/coaches are doing when they don't ask the most basic questions: what champions are strong, what comps works well together and how do we win with the champions we have selected?

I think that echo fox needs to clean house of its support staff regardless of the out come of the promotion tournament. By the time these organizations realize that the problem goes beyond mere growing pains it has already become too late in the season to make meaningful adjustments.

PhantomGGJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I guess I just don't understand what analysts/coaches are doing when they don't ask the most basic questions: what champions are strong, what comps works well together and how do we win with the champions we have selected?

I think that echo fox needs to clean house of its support staff regardless of the out come of the promotion tournament. By the time these organizations realize that the problem goes beyond mere growing pains it has already become too late in the season to make meaningful adjustments.

Honestly im keeping my fingers crossed that Rick gets LocoDoco since it's known allready that LocoDoco doesn't get along at all with Dardach

anonymous119Jul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Honestly im keeping my fingers crossed that Rick gets LocoDoco since it's known allready that LocoDoco doesn't get along at all with Dardach

Loco's strat/draft with tsm at worlds was just terrible, as was his draft with liquid during last seasons play offs, and his decision to bench dardach put them in a massive deficit at the start of the season. I personally am not a loco fan.

PhantomGGJul 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Have you seen Xpeke lately? He is but a shadow of himself and his team is in complete disarray. Leaderless, rudderless and sitting 9th in a considerably weaker region. Sad to see really.

XPeke only started playing baddly when he had to retire his main player spot status so he could focus on his company, hell in worlds at season five which was not even a year ago he got a penta kill and made it to third place. He only started playing baddly this season. Being relevant as a carry player for five whole seasons? That is much more than Froggen can say, same goes for Febivan who has now been seen as a world class player for two whole seasons, and than you have faker who has been relevant for 3 whole seasons, and Bjerg who has been seen as one of the worlds best mid laners since he entered TSM. Froggen has on and off moments, and even in his on moments, he was never "a top world class player" i'm a major fan of him, but facts, Froggen is great, froggen is most certainly above average, but he has yet to prove he is "world class". If anything the evidence point that he isn't. He is just another version of RYU, a super consistant mid laner, who will promise you the same above average results every game but will never give you a god tier performance.

Also this is his second or third time facing relegations, when a player finds himself this consistently at the bottom of the hole, he is part of the blame.

BigBellBruteJul 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

XPeke only started playing baddly when he had to retire his main player spot status so he could focus on his company, hell in worlds at season five which was not even a year ago he got a penta kill and made it to third place. He only started playing baddly this season. Being relevant as a carry player for five whole seasons? That is much more than Froggen can say, same goes for Febivan who has now been seen as a world class player for two whole seasons, and than you have faker who has been relevant for 3 whole seasons, and Bjerg who has been seen as one of the worlds best mid laners since he entered TSM. Froggen has on and off moments, and even in his on moments, he was never "a top world class player" i'm a major fan of him, but facts, Froggen is great, froggen is most certainly above average, but he has yet to prove he is "world class". If anything the evidence point that he isn't. He is just another version of RYU, a super consistant mid laner, who will promise you the same above average results every game but will never give you a god tier performance.

Also this is his second or third time facing relegations, when a player finds himself this consistently at the bottom of the hole, he is part of the blame.

The fact is his relevance this year is part of a treatise on how a team should not be run. It is undeniable that Origen is in complete disarray. I wonder what Power of Evil is thinking. Probably something to the effect of Wow. I thought the unicorns were going in the wrong direction. I left them for this? Ex Peke has found himself at the bottom of the hole, he is part of the blame.

C9 Scott Free Jul 23, 20161 votes

Froggen is good but not a play maker. Being good works out just fine but if you aren't a playmaker you will never be able to effectively in game lead or hard carry a whole team. Thats just the fact of the matter, whether it is solo queue or pro play.