Why does it seem that every game is a race to get Redbuff/Gunslinger?

Illabethe·Aug 11, 2019·4 votes·2,899 views

I mean...... I'd be willing to bet right now 80% of all #1 teams consist of at least 2 Gunslingers, with at least one Red buff. (Yes the title was rhetorical)

No item or champion has as much impact on the game as Red buff, and Gunslingers easily have the longest lasting advantage curve of any Trait.

Am I complaining? No. I use them too. I'm ...... just getting sick of them being a prerequisite to win...... when 5-6 other players per game are holding a lot of their cards, building the same core to their teams.

Have I won with other comps? Sure. Absolutely. In about 1 in 4 games. How often do I win when I sprinkle in Red buff/Gunslinger? In about 3 of 4 games.

I just had this team: [img]https://i.imgur.com/u7G8iyo.png[/img]

What do you see?

I see no significant synergies. The largest bonus Trait this team has is (3)

But..... I had like 7 of them.

Normally, when I Yordle, I try to go the obvious route of the Sorcerer. This game, I had two early Blademasters, so I decided to not theme.

I put Red buff + + on Tristana. I put Red Buff on Lucian. Lulu had a Frozen Heart

23 Comments

ChickDsAug 11, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I mean...... I'd be willing to bet right now 80% of all #1 teams consist of at least 2 Gunslingers, with at least one Red buff. (Yes the title was rhetorical)

You would lose this bet.

Until Diamond MMR or so you can play pretty much w/e comp and win. Once you get there you will see around 0% winning with 2+ Gunslinger and 1 or more red buffs.

No item or champion has as much impact on the game as Red buff, and Gunslingers easily have the longest lasting advantage curve of any Trait.

I would agree that red buff has the most usefulness in Gunslinger but it's a relatively weak item that builds from components of very strong items. The giant's belt is 1/2 of Morellonomicon and chain vest is 1/2 of GA.

Am I complaining? No. I use them too. I'm ...... just getting sick of them being a prerequisite to win...... when 5-6 other players per game are holding a lot of their cards, building the same core to their teams.

There's only two people that went gunslinger in the image you displayed?

Have I won with other comps? Sure. Absolutely. In about 1 in 4 games. How often do I win when I sprinkle in Red buff/Gunslinger? In about 3 of 4 games.

Citation? This is somewhere between slightly off and really really really off.

I just had this team: [img]https://i.imgur.com/u7G8iyo.png[/img]

What do you see?

I see a lot of people that have no idea what they're doing.

I see no significant synergies. The largest bonus Trait this team has is (3)

But..... I had like 7 of them.

Normally, when I Yordle, I try to go the obvious route of the Sorcerer. This game, I had two early Blademasters, so I decided to not theme.

I put Red buff + + on Tristana. I put Red Buff on Lucian. Lulu had a Frozen Heart

A few things:

Red buffs don't stack unless they're attacking different targets.
Your two gunslingers aren't the main reason you're winning fights. You have a 3 star lulu and 3 blademaster with a 2 star Draven.
Red buff isn't a very efficient item on Tristana because she's a back line unit that doesn't really benefit much from health or armor.
If you're going to run gunslinger with blademaster you should always be playing Gangplank. Dude is actually a monster as a 2 star in 3 blademaster / 2 gunslinger with the right 3 items(GA,Morellos,Hush).

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

I have 3 current ranked TFT accounts. One is Gold, one is Plat, and one is Diamond.
Morellonomicon is champ specific, countered by Hush, and generally uses up a Staff that you need for Sorcerer, etc. There are only about 3 champions that thrive with Morello: Karthus, Ahri, and Cho Gath.

GA really doesn't do much in TFT and is a rather niche item, that is countered by Grievous wounds. The only reason to put a GA on a champ is literally to " De-Aggro" and then revive without aggro attached to pull off a later skill.

Sidebars/Sales....... Originally 5-6 of them were making Gunslingers.
You're omitting what I said about having at least 2 Gunslingers. Gunslingers don't need 2-3 Extra targets. 1 extra is enough to make Red buff melt teams. Most winning teams have at least 2 Gunslingers and some other core comp to protect them. Ie Gunslinger + Glacial or Gunslinger + Yordle or Gunslinger + Noble.
Lucian and Tristana by default will attack different targets..... Before I had 2 Red buffs, I generally was falling short on killing 2-3 units in quite a few matches. After I had it, at least 4-5 targets were burning at a time, which was important because of the Kayles/Brawlers/Knights in the final comps. Keep in mind Tristana had a Runaan's, which allows her (with Gunslinger buff) to actually hit up to 3 targets per hit with just the (2) Gunslinger buff, and each attack randomizes at least 2 of those hits.

No. The Gunslingers did about 4 times the damage of the Blademasters. Lulu only got off ~2 skills per fight and her HP was never needed to survive.

It's extremely useful on Tristana, BECAUSE she's a back line unit. Assassins and Blitz generally will target her and erase a squish front loaded one. Furthermore, this build is comparable in damage to the squishy builds.

Gunslinger in my comps is about the range and multi hit, NOT being able to survive front line. GP rarely drops enough cards to compete with Lucian/Trist, and I started this match with the Shen/Fiora, so I was really just working with what the system gave me. If I do 4 Gunslinger, I normally go Trist/Lucian/GP/MF, and drop the Graves. In this game I was only trying to round out what I had; Shen and Fiora sidebar? Can I get to (3) Blademaster and have a tankier team than a (4) Gunslinger? Oh. Alright let's do that. Oh Hey. Store is giving me 3 Dravens? Why not add that into the team?

ChickDsAug 11, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I have 3 current ranked TFT accounts. One is Gold, one is Plat, and one is Diamond.

Pretty unlikely.

citations of the accounts =

Morellonomicon is champ specific, countered by Hush, and generally uses up a Staff that you need for Sorcerer, etc. There are only about 3 champions that thrive with Morello: Karthus, Ahri, and Cho Gath.

4 gunslinger comps and 2 gunslinger with GP carry may be soft counters but the match up isn't unwinnable. Also, neither sees a high play rate at diamond+ because its very inconsistent and item reliant.

You missed: Kennen Garen

And to a lesser degree: Darius Lucian Yasuo MissFortune AurelionSol

GA really doesn't do much in TFT and is a rather niche item, that is countered by Grievous wounds. The only reason to put a GA on a champ is literally to " De-Aggro" and then revive without aggro attached to pull off a later skill.

It's not a niche item. It's core on all the comps that aren't void/sorc/brawler; So you either play that and get 3 recurves(not that GA is a bad item in this comp either) or you need those at least one item 3026 & item 3165 or you're very unlikely to make top 4 in a diamond+ game.

Sidebars/Sales....... Originally 5-6 of them were making Gunslingers.

Okay. Maybe patches ago before shrink was nerfed...

You're omitting what I said about having at least 2 Gunslingers. Gunslingers don't need 2-3 Extra targets. 1 extra is enough to make Red buff melt teams. Most winning teams have at least 2 Gunslingers and some other core comp to protect them. Ie Gunslinger + Glacial or Gunslinger + Yordle or Gunslinger + Noble.

No. Nobody is going this. If you go gunslinger you go either re-roll 0 eco with pirates or you build the super GP comp I already discussed.

Lucian and Tristana by default will attack different targets..... Before I had 2 Red buffs, I generally was falling short on killing 2-3 units in quite a few matches. After I had it, at least 4-5 targets were burning at a time, which was important because of the Kayles/Brawlers/Knights in the final comps. Keep in mind Tristana had a Runaan's, which allows her (with Gunslinger buff) to actually hit up to 3 targets per hit with just the (2) Gunslinger buff, and each attack randomizes at least 2 of those hits.

Just no. Multiple red buffs aren't good. You're completely omitting the fact that it only "randomly attacks" targets in range. Additionally, your comp is basically toast cause it has no real front line and its back line relies on a lot of DOT damage.

No. The Gunslingers did about 4 times the damage of the Blademasters. Lulu only got off ~2 skills per fight and her HP was never needed to survive.

Sure and you win 75% of your games you go gunslinger. Just stop...unless you're going to provide citations.

Also, 3 star Lulu getting off 2 skills per fight should be a won fight regardless.

It's extremely useful on Tristana, BECAUSE she's a back line unit. Assassins and Blitz generally will target her and erase a squish front loaded one. Furthermore, this build is comparable in damage to the squishy builds.

20 extra armor and 200 extra health on a squishy unit isn't going to save it from Assassins or Blitz. Just learn how to properly position your backline DPS units.

Gunslinger in my comps is about the range and multi hit, NOT being able to survive front line. GP rarely drops enough cards to compete with Lucian/Trist, and I started this match with the Shen/Fiora, so I was really just working with what the system gave me. If I do 4 Gunslinger, I normally go Trist/Lucian/GP/MF, and drop the Graves. In this game I was only trying to round out what I had; Shen and Fiora sidebar? Can I get to (3) Blademaster and have a tankier team than a (4) Gunslinger? Oh. Alright let's do that. Oh Hey. Store is giving me 3 Dravens? Why not add that into the team?

The fact that you're building a blademaster and gunslinger team and not including a unit which is a blademaster and a gunslinger is very telling.

CräftyAug 11, 20192 votes

Although I agree that every comp, nowadays, needs at least one Red Buff or Morello, I don't agree about Gunslingers being a top tier comp in this meta. I'm D4, and around this high elo, Gunslingers are practically non existent. Heck, people even say that going GS is a death sentence in high elo, since the high-rerolling aspect of GS comp is really disadvantageous in this meta.

Yes, you can still go GS and win a game, but you need an incredible amount of luck to pull it off. Not only you need to 3 star your units, especially Tristana and Graves, but also you need Blademaster spatula item on trist + Red buff + on-hit items... GS are too items relyant atm, and they're really risky to play in high elo since there are more reliable and easier comps in the meta that can win you games more consistently!

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

I only prioritize up to 2 Gunslingers when I do it.

If I try a Sorcerer comp, there's simply no front line, and aoe meta erases you.

If you try Noble core comp, you generally get erased by sorcerers or other noble comps.

If you try Demon, you lose to on hit comps.

If you Glacial, you lose to burn builds with a tanky front line.

If you Void, you lose to comps that early game load damage and destroy them before they become active.

I'm finding that combined comps have a MUCH better chance to win than comps that do not.

I mean..... I wish I could get Katarina with Yuumi item 3040 item 3161 every game, and insta pop her skill every 1-2 seconds, but that just doesn't happen, and 15 rounds in, someone discovers how to counter it.

ChickDsAug 11, 20191 votes

{quoted} I'm finding that combined comps have a MUCH better chance to win than comps that do not.

Yeah, this part is okay but I would have assumed you already knew how to do that.

Gunslingers in the current meta are only viable in niche circumstances like:

early 2 star with GA can do work in early stages of games
two gunslinger with with nobles early(when you have 4/5 units)
3 item GP( & hush) 2gunslinger/3blademaster comps
high roll 3star all in 0eco on pirate gunslinger; which is a fun comp to play but I lost about 2 divisions on a smurf around D4 elo trying to make it work. Spoilers: it doesn't.

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

I sent you a friend request on the account I use for most TFT illustrations.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 11, 20191 votes

I'd still arguably say that RFC is one of the most game-deciding items there are. Sure, red buff is strong and all, but when 2 items can give you 4x the range...

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

4X the range is weak and situational versus today's end game comps.

Kennen/Cho/Karthus teams with a 4 second win generally trump RFC every day of the week.

Also, take into consideration RFC only counters 1 trait, and many of its users already almost have a map-wide range of attack.... (Gunslingers can attack 3/4 of the map away, particularly Tristana, and their splash has no limits on range)

It's primarily a melee range booster item, unless you have a leading Yordle comp.

FireDrizzleAug 11, 20191 votes

No item or champion has as much impact on the game as Red buff Yuumi item 3022 item 3153 item 3124

The teams you faced there were weak, the 2 spent 100 gold getting Gold Warwick and Ahri so he ended at level 6 and the 3rd place player had no Golds.

HarrowïngAug 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No item or champion has as much impact on the game as Red buff

The teams you faced there were weak, the 2 spent 100 gold getting Gold Warwick and Ahri so he ended at level 6 and the 3rd place player had no Golds.

Kinda disagree with the rageblade. It's cool early, but late game your champ who has it is almost never alive long enough to see a decent use.

ChickDsAug 11, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akashic Torment,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=mj8luq6T,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-11T13:05:42.972+0000)

Kinda disagree with the rageblade. It's cool early, but late game your champ who has it is almost never alive long enough to see a decent use.

item 3124 is very useful at all points in the game. But, to be great late game, you need to put it on a back line carry: AurelionSol Draven Volibear with a item 3094

These are the premium items IMO: item 3026 item 3165 item 3124 item 3094

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

In late game you generally don't have a back line to rely on in high elo strong comps. Global AOE comps are generally the winning teams right now, and they wipe out back lines in the first 3-4 seconds of combat. Meaning, the Guinsoo's rarely gets used.

The only instance where I see Guinsoo's actually have a better benefit is when Lulu has it and an SoS, which results in a survival mechanism which allows it to stack up.

ChickDsAug 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In late game you generally don't have a back line to rely on in high elo strong comps. Global AOE comps are generally the winning teams right now, and they wipe out back lines in the first 3-4 seconds of combat. Meaning, the Guinsoo's rarely gets used.

So they wipe out your back line in the first 3 to 4 seconds of combat and your solution to the problem is to build DOT gunslingers? Lol what?!?!

The only instance where I see Guinsoo's actually have a better benefit is when Lulu has it and an SoS, which results in a survival mechanism which allows it to stack up.

item 3124 is core in the main sorc/void/brawler comp. You put it on Ahri with item 3094 then you switch it to preferably AurelionSol but possibly Draven or Volibear later.

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

DoT that burns 3-5 targets at once, is supplemented by Lulu, Shen, Kayle, and still has fast attack speed, higher HP, and survives a lot of those global aoes.

ChickDsAug 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

DoT that burns 3-5 targets at once, is supplemented by Lulu, Shen, Kayle, and still has fast attack speed, higher HP, and survives a lot of those global aoes.

So you're burning 3-5 targets for 5 seconds which amounts to 13% of their health for that 5 seconds...good job giving the Sorc team a little extra mana. Not that they needed it to kill you.

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

You're doing on hit damage as well, and the burn is recurring..... And they can't use any healing items or effects from skills/traits.....

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

Sorcerer has an impact but not near as much as Red buff. Also comp specific.

Blademaster is generally a weak trait beyond lower levels. Specializing and shooting for (6) or (9) Generally gets you directly countered by a Noble comp and more specifically, Kayle/Kindred.

Glacial Trait item is pretty niche..... and doesn't offer as much as Sorcerer for consuming a Spatula.

Kei143Aug 11, 20191 votes

So is the problem gunner red buff? Or the partial synergies are too strong?

Ryan Here YTAug 11, 20191 votes

The higher elo you get the less you'll see gunslinger comps. But red buff and morello are extremely strong right now.

IllabetheAug 11, 20191 votes

I disagree. In High elo you see people diversify their choices. You'll see less 4 players chasing Gunslinger, but one team will still prioritize Gunslinger, because that's what's open and not using someone else's card pool. I usually don't chase 4 Gunslingers, because having multiple defensive layers vs Aoe comp is HUGE in high elo.

ComicmanAug 11, 20191 votes

If you want a nice gunslinger for higher elo go for MissFortune with Yuumi item 3040 item 3165 in sorc comp, if you position her well its really funny build she destroys the whole board in few secs, however, if you position her wrong she is pretty useless