Wtf? Support items? Just wow.

Illabethe·Feb 13, 2019·135 votes·24,830 views

I'm sorry but this is just sad.

How often are both adc and support in lane at the same time long enough to actually quest?

What are they trying to do? take a class that often is 3-4k Gold behind anyone else and make them 6-7k behind?

This isn't just a nerf. This is a 25--30% of the game utter destruction of gold income.

Furthermore, post lane phase, supports will more or less have NO INCOME because they can't reliably CS, and teammates are always on the move, where there's not always an opportunity to follow them.

Just ...... Wow.

For the record: No CS top lane had legitimate drawbacks: If you were ganked, or if the opposing laner got aggressive, it almost always sabotaged the attempt to 0 CS and gave free lane control to the other laner.

224 Comments

G0blinSlay3rFeb 13, 201935 votes

he is 100% right. and he was down voted.

BoltonatorFeb 13, 201917 votes

{quoted}

he is 100% right. and he was down voted.

A downvote-worthy post will continue to be downvoted. This post is not one of them.

While I don’t share in the “doom-n-gloom” mindset running rampant I think this could be a potentially large setback for supports going forward. Only time will tell.

rtbf221651412Feb 13, 20199 votes

{quoted}

A downvote-worthy post will continue to be downvoted. This post is not one of them.

While I don’t share in the “doom-n-gloom” mindset running rampant I think this could be a potentially large setback for supports going forward. Only time will tell.

Jungle and Supports. Riot demands the need for another 'supportive and team oriented based' class nerfed next cause Rito. Good thing we have autofill. **That definitely won't piss off people and make them leave with this change. ** Oh wait.

BoltonatorFeb 13, 20197 votes

{quoted}

Jungle and Supports. Riot demands the need for another 'supportive and team oriented based' class nerfed next cause Rito.

I will still continue to garner enjoyment out of playing Support, so long as I feel like I am able to fully utilize the kit my champion has. The hardcore support players will undoubtedly continue to push through the nerf bat as well...

Now if they decide to revert Supports back to walking ward droppers and remove any incentive to spend gold to enhance their abilities then you would see a noticeable drop off. I played during S1 and I absolutely hated playing support when half of my item slots were wards.

rtbf221651412Feb 13, 201917 votes

{quoted}

I will still continue to garner enjoyment out of playing Support, so long as I feel like I am able to fully utilize the kit my champion has. The hardcore support players will undoubtedly continue to push through the nerf bat as well...

Now if they decide to revert Supports back to walking ward droppers and remove any incentive to spend gold to enhance their abilities then you would see a noticeable drop off. I played during S1 and I absolutely hated playing support when half of my item slots were wards.

The point of support is to support your team. Riot has done everything to make it everything but that.

Janna Now has more damage. Less movement speed to catch up with allies and a worser version of a shield including item nerfs. Feels like she has to un-counter herself like Soraka. She used to have a 56% winrate. Now she's lower. Good... IF SHE WORKED THE WAY SHE WAS INTENDED TO BE PLAYED.

Malzahar is kinda useless now. Sorry not sorry. He used to be able to block skill shots with his W. He actually had a useful ult and now you need one button to make his only cc completely useless. He can't even do jungle properly and doesn't even really have a lane anymore. Good job rito?

Soraka basically (not entirely) maxes her E first during laning phase cause fuck healing apparently unless it's to un-counter yourself. It's almost as if she was meant to heal and not do damage. But hey she is doing something right. **DOING MORE DAMAGE TO HERSELF. ** Zilean is barely even seen.

is considered a support by many because clearly he and Velkoz should be bot-lane and be considered traditional supports (lul).

God forbid Jungle and Support provide vision on A HUGE MAP in which a stealthed champion can ONE SHOT YOU. Now that would be a terrible idea.

ParoeFeb 13, 201931 votes

The support item changes arent to combat a "toxic or cancerous cheese strat top". Theyre to combat the increased amount of vision that the strategy enabled.

Just another step in their moronic war on vision.

ApocalypsicFeb 13, 20194 votes

{quoted}

The support item changes arent to combat a "toxic or cancerous cheese strat top". Theyre to combat the increased amount of vision that the strategy enabled.

Just another step in their moronic war on vision.

I need my tin foil hat.

ParoeFeb 13, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im a Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-02-13T05:01:00.416+0000)

I need my tin foil hat.

Sure, theyre over there with the Ahri and Zed mains.

Riots had a war on vision for a long, long time at this point. It started with the ward reworks and reached a fever pitch when riot removed sightstone in favor of these quests. Normally a strategy like this wouldnt be touched for awhile, but it WAS touched because it involved vision.

FragglerocFeb 13, 201919 votes

How about roaming supports like Bard? i dub thee The Bards-killing Patch.

Sewer SideFeb 13, 201912 votes

perhaps CS bounties shouldn’t be CS bounties and should just be gold lead bounties.

But what do I know?

WAZZZUP500Feb 13, 201910 votes

I'm gonna have to agree. I haven't even seen anyone take support items solo lane anyways. And what happens if the adc goes and dies or has to back? The support has to either a) starve or b) steal cs, then lose procs on items like frost queen's claim, and not fulfill the quest.

I wholeheartedly disagree with these changes, and don't really know why riot though it was a problem in the first place.

KadexeFeb 13, 20199 votes

So... basically all the support items were brought into line with Relic Shield? I don't see the problem.

TobykachuFeb 13, 20198 votes

Tbh, the alternative is 10x worse. If the spellthief's/kleptomancy build became more popular than it already had then people would be complaining about that a Hell of a lot more. It's actually really nice to see Riot getting rid of an uninteractive and antifun playstyle before it gained massive popularity.

Also, it seems to only be the on Spellthief's/Ancient Coin and after you upgrade them to Frostfang/Nomad's Medallion they seem to work like they used to.

IllabetheFeb 13, 20198 votes

It's on all tiers of the items.

TobykachuFeb 13, 20192 votes

Are you sure? I've been playing a lot today and don't really seem to notice a difference in the gold generation.

MarshbouyFeb 14, 20195 votes

that's because there isn't a difference in gold gen for supports. OP is exaggerating.

CPU LyricaFeb 13, 20196 votes

wait, what's happened? pls explain

ParoeFeb 13, 201919 votes

[{quoted}](name=CPU Lyrica,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-13T02:10:40.874+0000)

wait, what's happened? pls explain

All gold income items that did not inherently have a leash now have a leash of 1500 units. If there is not an ally within 1500 units, gold income effects will not generate gold.

IllabetheFeb 13, 201938 votes

But will still consume cooldown penalties and stacks if you bother attacking/skilling or killing minions.

If they are going to do this crap, they need to put a pause on the farming penalty when there is no ally within range as well, and not consume stacks.

ParoeFeb 13, 201917 votes

{quoted}

But will still consume cooldown penalties and stacks if you bother attacking/skilling or killing minions.

If they are going to do this crap, they need to put a pause on the farming penalty when there is no ally within range as well, and not consume stacks.

Wait, is that really true?! It will still consume the stacks but not generate anything? I get it was a hotfix because riot cant have more than 5 wards on the map apparently... But thats just asinine knee-jerk.

ChaosReynFeb 13, 20198 votes

Which is made 4x dumber by the fact that there's literally already a max of 4 wards per person (3 sight+1 control), and that max is usually never reached, even in pro play, due to the jungler taking sweeping lens, or your solo queue teammates evidently unbinding their trinket's hotkey to justify flaming the support for lack of vision and their deaths by ganks. The support items had that ward mechanic specifically so they could take Sweeper and still place wards...now their vision score will be garbage in addition to the fact that most actual supports are being largely replaced by utility mages or straight up burst mages.

Riot needs to just come out and say it publicly: "We don't care about our supports being played as support anymore, if it means the LCS gets flashier teamfights, faster game times, and more excitement from unexpected ganks."

They'd rather HARM THEIR OWN DESIGN than potentially lose a single view of the LCS...and people wonder why the LCS isn't popular anymore. It's not the pace anymore, this isn't the tank meta where every game was 45-50 minutes, and it's not the action...it's the fact that watching OUR game become THE PROS' game, and watching those monkeys follow their cookie-cutter templates to a T, isn't entertaining anymore. PLAYING THE ACTUAL GAME isn't nearly as entertaining anymore...obviously, it's still something because all of us still play it, but it's less a GAME at this point and more of a CRAFT, since all of the potential for individuality is being siphoned off for pro-tour profits.

ChaosReynFeb 13, 20198 votes

If you can't tell, their more recent philosophies irk me...I'd much rather see an unexpected PLAY than an unexpected GANK. Ganks happen all the time. Even unexpected ones. Wanna know what doesn't happen anymore in the LCS, EVER? Utility/Enchanter supports pulling off some ABSOLUTELY SICK, gamechanging outplay that results in their team turning a terrible fight into a well played winning one. That tank SOMEHOW living a 1v3 in the early stages of mid game against a huge amount of damage and walking away with SIX HEALTH and a kill or two. Heavy splitpushing, Backdoor plays, literally ANY variety in jungle strategy (because Riot killed off the "farm til 6" strategy, which murdered champs like Skarner or Shyvanna, who were already not too popular but are now unpopular AND unfit for higher level play), and probably most importantly, DoT mages. I think of all the wrongs Riot has done to their own designs, Champions like Malzahar and Fid have got it the worst. Their damage it literally laughable, because they get instantly exploded by any champion that closes on them, and none of their DoT damage gets through to the enemy, because half of them have more lifesteal than the damage it deals, and the other half probably exploded them before they even had time to cast.

At this point, it's all "that assassin jumped out and deleted that guy!" or That bruiser just went in and destroyed their entire team!" because they've got this misconception that aggressive plays + bloodshed = views, and that all other paths are obsolete. Aggressive is not always flashy. Especially when it's the ONLY thing you see. There's no strategy in it anymore.

FilDaFunkFeb 13, 20198 votes

Thye should remove the farming penalties - they are not required with the leash.

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 14, 20193 votes

the point of the changes is to stop top laners from abusing the items. if you pause the gold generation that might not be enough to dissuade them from the strategy

also aren't you blowing this way way out of proportion? how often is a support in a lane without any allies nearby? and if you are alone in a lane with no allies nearby as support... there's minions there to take. like, the impact to you should be pretty minimal.

IllabetheFeb 14, 20195 votes

Do you even know how Spellthief works? 6 CS = a 72 second cooldown on charging it. 72 second for one wave of clear. That's 72 seconds:

-You can't progress toward wards -You can't benefit from extra on hit damage, or gold gain -72 seconds your per second gold income is not occuring -Later upgrade to tier 2.

You CANNOT FARM AT ALL ON SPELLTHIEF

DeusVultFeb 13, 20195 votes

This is just the latest case of supports being on the receiving end of nerfs for a problem that was created by other lanes

Von BrohenheimFeb 13, 20195 votes

Are you actually having trouble completing quests?

You shouldn't be staggering recalls with your ADC to begin with. Forget gold items, that right there is losing you lanes and games to begin with. I suggest learning about bot lanr recall timing.

If you're trying to grab coins or poke in 1v2 situations, that's another problem. I see so many supports try to greed for this, and then end up wasting their flash, dying, or having to recall just as their ADC comes back to lane. This is actually worse than dying in a fight - now, not only are YOU missing exp and resources, but your ADC is forced to give up farm they desperately need. When you die in a 2v2, you put yourself behind. When you greed and end up staggering recalls, you put BOTH bot laners behind.

Finally, it's not like your ADC is the only person on your team. If you can't find someone half competent to stand next to, you have bigger problems than finishing your ward quest.

Try practicing these. Even with the changes, you'll have more success.

IllabetheFeb 14, 20193 votes

Except that's not what EVER happened.

By the time you got your quest done, you easily were behind your 70 CS opponent by about 1600-2000 gold. It's only AFTER you finish the quest that you have potential to recover your gold position. Until then, you are prone to pushes, prone to ganks, and itemization.

Lo4dingFeb 14, 20192 votes

What are you talking about. Do you get that both supports get a same support item nerfs. If you are cca. 1800 gold behind enemy support. It is not because support item changes. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Serika ZeroFeb 14, 20192 votes

If every minion was worth 25 gold. 25 x 70 = 1750.

Not all minions are 25g or more. But on average they are.

And you still got klepto procs to get gold. and you got frost fang procs to get gold. And you got passive gold from spell thieves. and you could still get kills, assists or turet plates for gold.

So, someone that farms. No minions VS. Someone that farms minions. the person farming would be around 1700g ahead. But when you add gold. Generation options.

Also I made the same mistake: you lose turret plates and can't assist your junglers with this strat. reality : you can auto attack minions, you just can't kill them. So, you can push the lane if you want too. and you can easily roam to help your junglers.

And if you want, you can even let the wave push into you, so that you stay under tower and not get ganked.

The only weakness is: you can't snowball in your own lane and you won't get turret plate. Oh and you will have the support item as one of your items which some might like and other not.

Wild GeeseFeb 13, 20194 votes

Honestly they should ditch the support quest items, and add back the sight stones and ordinary gold generation items at this point.

SammyDayspringFeb 14, 20194 votes

The new bounty system has been a problem since it was implemented. Typical Riot - causes a problem by not anticipating how a new system can be abused and then punishes the wrong group with their knee-jerk reactions.

General Esdeath Feb 14, 20194 votes

"Our shitty bounty system is creating a strategy where people use support items to keep up in gold and not gain a ridiculous bounty on them by avoiding any CS? Better nerf support items"

lmao

Tenshi912Feb 14, 20191 votes

The strategy is not about avoiding a CS bounty on oneself, but sticking your opponents with big CS bounties by manipulating the CS numbers to make it appear that the enemy team has way more gold than your team by virtue of having way more CS, even if the gold totals are actually the same. The strategy is essentially abusing a loophole/exploit in the way bounties are programmed, so I'm not surprised that Riot is stamping it out as soon as possible.

sphinxthelion7Feb 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

The strategy is not about avoiding a CS bounty on oneself, but sticking your opponents with big CS bounties by manipulating the CS numbers to make it appear that the enemy team has way more gold than your team by virtue of having way more CS, even if the gold totals are actually the same. The strategy is essentially abusing a loophole/exploit in the way bounties are programmed, so I'm not surprised that Riot is stamping it out as soon as possible.

Ok, so why not do the logical thing and change the bounty system and NOT the support items??!?!?!

RyzenLordFeb 13, 20193 votes

Supports don't scale like every other class. They have so much utility in their kits, that they don't need a ton of items to scale like adc or other classes. These past few years supports have been overtuned due to having access to gold, while having the cheapest items that synergize well with their kits. They don't need to be on par with laners or junglers in gold, because they scale in gold at a faster rate due to faster powerspikes.

IllabetheFeb 13, 201910 votes

Hello? Ever have a game go over 20 minutes? Are we playing the same game here? I'm sorry but your utility argument goes in the trash when they heal nothing, can soak no damage, and fights are decided in .5 seconds.

Nami's Q takes .87 seconds to land. her R has a .4 Second delay. Some serious Utility there in this meta.

You make an argument like "Supports are slaves and therefore should not be allowed to compensate or play. They should do as they are told."

Both Supports have increased income. The playing field is equal. I'm sorry you'd prefer it not be equal and every game have a subjective 5th wheel with half the gold to build even though their build is only 2-3k less gold than a laner-carry.

You really have no clue what you're talking about.

Knight of noosesFeb 15, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry but this is just sad.

How often are both adc and support in lane at the same time long enough to actually quest?

What are they trying to do? take a class that often is 3-4k Gold behind anyone else and make them 6-7k behind?

This isn't just a nerf. This is a 25--30% of the game utter destruction of gold income.

Furthermore, post lane phase, supports will more or less have NO INCOME because they can't reliably CS, and teammates are always on the move, where there's not always an opportunity to follow them.

Just ...... Wow.

For the record: No CS top lane had legitimate drawbacks: If you were ganked, or if the opposing laner got aggressive, it almost always sabotaged the attempt to 0 CS and gave free lane control to the other laner.

Most of the games i play i see the support completed their question 11-15 mins in.. Longest i seen was 18-20 mins

IllabetheFeb 15, 20191 votes

You do realize an active, accurate support can finish the quest in 7-8 minutes, or used to be able to? Now it's 11 +. Only the losing or bad supports used to get the quest done in 11-15.

ParoeFeb 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You do realize an active, accurate support can finish the quest in 7-8 minutes, or used to be able to? Now it's 11 +. Only the losing or bad supports used to get the quest done in 11-15.

Someone with easy harass like morgana can complete STE's quest in 8 minutes. But most mages take between 10 and 11 minutes. When i play Zoe support it usually takes 11~13 minutes depending on whether or not the enemy marksman doesnt learn not to position by the wall or is an ezreal.

God i hate ezreal.

Altonius AmakiirFeb 15, 20193 votes

They should be backing at the same time most the time, so there shouldn't be that many instances. Maybe try timing your backings together and manage the waves better.

GripaAviaraFeb 14, 20192 votes

I never understood why this strategy is an issue anyway. It doesn't seem overpowered, just different. Why is different bad?

Also, they could just make sure the gold is a little lower than a standard CS and done. Heck, they could've made the gold efficiency of sup items 70% only without a champion in 1500 radius, and yet they decided to go with a full bust.

LTK KoRoFeb 14, 20191 votes

I'll tell you why.

Because this "strategy" grants an unhealthy amount of vision control, which is not possible to be countered in a current state of the game. Imagine having max. 4 wards on entire map while enemy team can have 10 of them. This is the problem which this strategy brought. League since s2-s3 was lowering amount of vision, since it was too big. Current gameplay of league relies on limited vision, and this strategy basically broke it.

GripaAviaraFeb 14, 20193 votes

It's funny though because most of the times I saw this strat, it failed

Starcraft243verFeb 15, 20192 votes

How often are both adc and support in lane at the same time long enough to actually quest?

Well, about 90% of the time ? By the way, nothing prevents you to help another lane or your jungler as well.

Furthermore, post lane phase, supports will more or less have NO INCOME because they can't reliably CS, and teammates are always on the move, where there's not always an opportunity to follow them.

You are not very good at supporting are you ?

lil boxFeb 13, 20191 votes

Better hotfix the items again so the egirls can get 100 gold per proc, I'm sorry but the people complaining about this change are dumb and forget the item 3302 is the same way

IllabetheFeb 13, 201910 votes

Except it's not? Relic shield users can farm minions without putting their trinket on cooldown. It just won't execute or share gold.

Spellthief actually goes on long cooldowns if you even try to defend your lane.

Also, Relic rewards far more than Nomads in heals and Gold totals.

Tuition FeeFeb 13, 20191 votes

Sorry, can someone fill me in? What's going on?

ParoeFeb 13, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tuition Fee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tu0VzhdE,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-02-13T05:01:56.208+0000)

Sorry, can someone fill me in? What's going on?

Harass ~~top laners~~ mages were going item 3098 + klepto and not farming in order to heavily harass their opponent laner. This 100% interaction strategy is deemed 'boring and unhealthy' by bruiser mains because they can be harassed and shut down before they can do the same.

So riot gave the items a leash so that an ally had to be within 1500 units or the items wouldnt generate gold.

nelogisFeb 13, 201914 votes

Good way to absolutely ignore every point the item was actually changed for!

Good job!

~~Top Laners~~ Asswipes in top lane that shouldn't be in top lane to begin with named Zilean / Karma / Kennen / Lulu went Spellthiefs and Klepto and proceeded to ONLY harass the enemy while having 0 cs.

This did 2 things

a) The guy with 0 cs actually was equal in gold than the laner that tried to play "normal" (lol playing a normal champ in top what an idiot right?)

b) It fucked over the bounty system since it calculates with every income outside of support. But now the top laner also has "0 cs" in the eyes of the bounty system so the system gives enemies bounties so the other team can "catch up" again

Not only was it degenerate but also braindead because you no longer had to know how to play out a lane