Imagine nidalee, but instead or swapping forms you choose one permanently at the beginning of the game. Do you want to be a long-ranged artillery mage, or a close-range mobile burst assassin?
I imagine it would be a witch/wizard who chooses between a control mage and an enchanter support. Each form would have its own unique set of abilities and the character would look slightly different.
Thoughts?
Alzon3 votesWhat if we had a champion that swapped between 141 wildly different forms, and we got to choose at the start of each game?
AnAggravatedPimp2 votesSo Kayn but permanent Darkin/Shadow Assassin.
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesI think he means something with a more extreme difference between the two forms. Kayn and Rhaast's abilities are still mostly similar, with only a few differences between select abilities.
Meanwhile, if you compare Jayce's ranged and melee forms, it's entirely different. OP is wanting something in that vein, where the two different forms are something completely separate from the other (hence why the choice would be at the start of the game, as the two forms would have entirely different builds and archetypes.
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesThat's...actually the main point of a Quinn & Valor rework I've been crafting on and off for a while. At the start of the game you choose between a melee roaming assassin, or a ranged DPS
EDIT: Here's the rough draft of it, if anyone wants to see: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cNfgdh0JZyHyhYEh1P8S4lG4c1zcawGynrjRRLcz7wc/edit?usp=sharing
The ranged ult is still not complete, trying to think of some kind of team fighting buff to give.
Melee E I'm also not entirely happy about.
Alzon2 votesThat’s literally just two different champions.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesAnd ranged and melee Jayce are two different champions, just without ults or passives.
That's the entire point of the concept, as well as what OP is talking about.
The same champion, so that you have the same personality, the same story, but have vastly different playstyles that fit into two different archetypes.
That rework concept is designed to address the potential problems facing a future Quinn rework, where every person who plays Quinn plays her in a different way with a different goal. What the concept does is cover the majority of those different styles, but keeps it in a way that they aren't all stuck on one style that can become overbearing.
Alzon1 votesNo, they’re not two different champions. The abilities persist upon swapping forms, and he would be absolute trash if he were restricted to just one form. It is a single, cohesive kit with interesting interactions between the two forms. The same story applies to Nidalee and Elise as well. An argument could potentially be made for Gnar, but he is what he is.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesSo you're saying that if you gave ranged Jayce a passive and ultimate based on the abilities and effects that ranged form has, it wouldn't be a full champion? Do those individual abilities not all work together? A basic ranged poke, a self buff, and a movement speed boost to supplement his low auto attack range and boost his poke. Give him an actual passive and ult, that's a champion right there.
Yeah, if you just straight up took what the numbers say for Jayce right now, that would suck. But that's not what I'm saying. The ability concepts, the way the form works, that is what would be a champion.
Alzon1 votesBut it would not be Jayce. That’s what I’m trying to say - he exists as a single champion. A single, complex kit. Kayn is also just one kit, but he can unlock a few different effects for his abilities. Same for Kha’Zix and Kai’Sa.
Now assume Jayce had actually been released as two champions. You’d have a marksman and a fighter, both with very simple and rather uninteresting kits - one capable of nothing but poke, and one capable of nothing but jumping in. Same story if Jayce had been released as one champion who permanently chose a form at the start of the game, except you’d also have the counterpick issues discussed in another comment on this discussion.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesYes. Jayce is complex and his forms are intertwined and all that, et cetera, et cetera.
But we aren't saying rework Jayce into that. We're saying a new champion that would be this new type of form switching champion, one that wouldn't require 6 unique abilities to be a complete kit, because they wouldn't have 6 unique abilities.
Yes, Jayce as a champion would not work if you took only one of his forms. But if you took the concept of his abilities of one form, those could be a new champion.
I feel like you have gotten hung up on my comment about Jayce in my first reply to you.
And as I have said in another comment: not every champion is going to have a direct counterpick. Some will require more game knowledge and mechanics to beat, rather then just an automatic advantage against them from the game lobby. Flex picks also prevent you from selecting a good counterpick. What would you do if the enemy team picks Shen, Irelia, Gragas, and Poppy. All of those champions can be played in at least 2 different roles, and all of them overlapping in at least one. All of them require different champions and strategies to play against, and you won't know who you're going to be facing until the loading screen comes up and you see their positions.
Likewise, the two different forms of Kayn require different strategies to play against, different items to counter them, but you won't know what to do for that until halfway into the game, and by that time, you're already on the back foot because they knew what they wanted the whole time, but you didn't.
Alzon1 votesI was not simply referring to the enemy team's ability to counterpick. I was talking about how ridiculously adaptive such a champion would be. Once in game, this champion would have two entire, fully-fleshed, and radically different kits to choose from - literally two entirely unique champions once past the loading screen. The player would have essentially picked two champions during the login screen and can choose one over the other once in game. Imagine if current League were like that - everyone loaded in with two champions, and picked one to use in the fountain.
Flex picks like Irelia are not the same - the player is still locked into playing that one champion, no matter what role, for good or for worse.
At least, like I said, Kayn is still the same champion, just with a couple extra effects tacked onto his abilities, and this adaptability comes at a couple clear drawbacks. His kit doesn't come online in either form for a good portion of the game while he looks for fights, and he's even further locked out of his kit's full power if the form the player deems optimal for the situation is not the one he unlocks first.
Also, I have now read your Quinn & Valor rework concept. Without addressing any balance issues inherent between the old kit and both new kits, this is also two champions with radically different roles, abilities, and matchups, with no drawback at all to gaining this adaptability. If there were one, it would come at the cost of both champions being essentially worse than other champions in general.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesAnd you don't seem to be noticing that this choice happens once. In the entire game. And in the case of my rework concept (and I'm assuming James's ideas for such a champion), this happens at the start of the game, before literally anything else happens. This isn't like Kayn where you still have a base form before you make your choice, or any of the other form switcher champions that we have that always have access to the other half during the game. This is more similar to Kalista's passive bond, where it only happens once, except in this case, you can't do anything with your champion other than move until you make that choice.
This isn't a free swap whenever they like it. Such an idea with two completely separate champion kits would be bad design and likely overpowered. This is something you decide at the start of the game, before you even buy your items, and that's it. The choice is locked in.
There is no more adaption required for that kind of matchup than against any other champion.
Alzon1 votesThe choice happens twice - once in champion select, a timing that most would agree is fair and balanced. The second choice happens after everyone has loaded in, allowing the player to see at the very least the summoner spells, keystones/secondary trees, and queued positions of the enemy team before choosing which champion to play. At the most, the player can check op.gg during the load screen and see EVERYTHING everyone on both teams is bringing to the table, according to their current accounts.
While match history might be acceptable common knowledge in the pro scene and custom games when selecting which champion to play, it certainly is not acceptable in matchmade games. Additionally, knowledge of loadouts is NEVER acceptable when picking who to play - unless allowing for this knowledge is a good chunk of the champion's power budget.
JoeAnarchy2 votesso make it impossible to counterpick in lobby? while that sounds like a fun concept, it would be completely unfair and unbalanced.. if they can just choose a form at the beginning of the game, then even if they get first picked, they are still the one who gets a free counterpick against their enemy laner.. do you need a burst mage, a control mage, an enchanter? well no matter what your enemy laner picks, you get the counter pick! at least kayn/rhaast only gets the counter pick after they've got some damage in.. its not an immediate counterpick.. if it was completely not allowed in ranked and competitive play, then sure, but other than that, no it sounds like a nightmare.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesThe idea would be that each form has it's defined strengths and weaknesses, as well as likely something that says which form they pick at the start of the game (also would likely be limited to just two)
if they can just choose a form at the beginning of the game, then even if they get first picked, they are still the one who gets a free counterpick against their enemy laner..
And that's essentially what happens with flex picks. If someone first picks Irelia, you don't know if they're going to be the enemy top or mid laner, same thing with a Gragas or Camille for jungler or top.
Not every champion is going to have a defined counterpick. Some just need to be counterplayed and counter-built.
Alzon1 votesThis exactly! It would probably be the same case with AvantelWings’s Quinn & Valor rework idea. I imagine it would be tailored for top or mid lane and allow the player to choose the well-known Quinn, an assassin/marksman who trashes immobile melee champions but is vulnerable to getting jumped on, or the new Valor, a fighter/juggernaut(?) who WANTS to be jumped on (and is better at jumping on and sticking to opponents who would otherwise outrange Quinn in lane). Therefore, a player who knows both will immediately have counterpick advantage.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesSo Kayn and Rhaast? What you're describing is basically that, just that instead of halfway into the game where you already built your core items, you know what you need to build to counter them from the start of the game.
Also, did you actually read through my rework concept? Because your "examples" are not what it is at all.
Instead of creating an entirely new champion out of it, what it's more similar to is splitting current Quinn in half, where her assassin playstyle is no longer linked to a ranged lane bully, which gives distinct moments of strength to those that like to play Quinn as a DPS carry and those that like to burst targets, while giving opponents moments where they can fight against it.
