Lee Sin has a 42% pickrate in jungle.

koshkyra·Apr 10, 2017·152 votes·5,969 views

Honestly I don't really have much of a problem fighting him, I'm just bored seeing him in legitimately every game I play. Riot needs to do something to lower his pickrate.

211 Comments

CanastusApr 10, 201729 votes

Riot outright refuses to nerf him in a meaningful way, it's beyond me why he's still allowed to have an execute in his kit (Q). Nerfing his R wasn't enough, his Q needs to be gutted, too.

Easily the most played champ in the game while still sporting a 50% winrate, that's objectively broken.

DurpDurApr 10, 20173 votes

LeeSin is your poster boy for early mid pressure. He's strong, but he's not broken.

I think the reason why he's able to preform so well in solo que is because of the lack of respect for his early pressure. Then in competitive because his ult can set up so many picks.

A place where I do think lee is a bit too strong is his early clear, perhaps nerfing his passive attack speed by 10% will reduce how quickly and effectively he's able to clear the camps and gank.

Edit: Regarding his 42% pick rate, what do you think would happen if a popular champion that's decently strong like Lucian got such a hyped up skin released, the pick rate would obviously skyrocket.

LankPantsApr 10, 201720 votes

Edit: Regarding his 42% pick rate, what do you think would happen if a popular champion that's decently strong like got such a hyped up skin released, the pick rate would obviously skyrocket.

Skyrocket? That's an interesting way of saying "it's been 20%+ for the last 5 years and 30%+ all season".

DurpDurApr 11, 20172 votes

Will Lucian , Thresh , or Ezreal ever fall under 10% pick rate?

No, there are simply champions that are like that. and LeeSin just happens to be one of them.

AnidanApr 11, 20176 votes

I don't think Pudge has ever seen less than 20% pickrate in pubs since the release of DotA2, even during times where he was considered crap by the community that frequented Reddit and forums. Some champions are always going to be popular. Lee and Ezreal will probably always be popular, even if they're crap. This has been observed in metas when both were, in fact, crap, and retained high popularity.

Dextix LTApr 11, 20176 votes

Different games, different balances.

SkorchApr 11, 20176 votes

But same concept? Just cause games arent the exact same doesnt mean you cant apply same concepts.

Dextix LTApr 11, 20173 votes

No, not the same concept, different balance types means that you simply cant compare anything regarding balance. Different variables, different systems, different players, different ladders, as such the explanations for pick rates/ban rates and win rates are completely different.

With the type of balance that league has, NO champion should constantly have over 20% pick rate, if he has that pick rate constantly, then it means that something is wrong.

While in DOTA that is completely different and not indicative of anything because it uses a different balancing system.

SkorchApr 11, 20172 votes

Have you ever played Dota? not only that but i think the premise of "fun things get more attention" is applicable to more than just mobas

Dextix LTApr 11, 20173 votes

Yes, unlike you i HAVE played dota, maining Chaos Knight and Bounty Hunter for the moment.

IT is balanced completely different than LOL is, they use different factors and different variables are taken into account when balancing dota heroes.

And no, "Fun things get more attention" is not applicable and is bullshit. If that was the case, azir would still have a huge pick rate, if that was the case kled would have a huge pick rate, if that was the case many other "fun" champions would have a huge pick rate. Well, they do not.

Lee on the other hand has ALWAYS had a huge pick rate, even when he was not in meta he had pick rates higher than half of the league champions.

Hell, "fun" is a subjective thing and is also not applicable because you do not account for having "fun" by winning.

I will take an example, CS:GO. They released a revolver, a weapon that hit as hard as AWP yet cost a lot less. It was extremelly op and unbalanced. Guess what happened? Everryone started to buy it. Did they buy it because it was "fun"? NO, they bought the revolver because it was simply op and won them games.

People use things that are strong or op not because they are fun, but because they give them wins that are fun for them. That is why META exists, that is why OP champs exist, that is wwhy op champs get high pick rates.

LankPantsApr 11, 201712 votes

Ezreal and Lucian have both been under 10% pickrates. In fact Lucian was at bellow a 10% pick rate 3 patches ago, before Riot made him a monster.

New Tool AlbumApr 10, 201715 votes

high clear speed junglers are great because of how aids the new jungle is.

Voluug13Apr 10, 201716 votes

Playing even slightly off meta junglers is screaming ''invade me Free Win-senpai, my hp is low because raptor camp destroys me'' lmao

RenownedWheat42Apr 10, 201712 votes

Is it bad enjoying a champ though? Seeing him everywhere can suck I guess but it isn't the worst thing ever.

Only way to lower it is nerf (unneeded imho since the dude was sitting at a sub 50 winrate in all elos even before God Fist) or adjustment at this point.

koshkyraApr 10, 201716 votes

{quoted}

Is it bad enjoying a champ though? Seeing him everywhere can suck I guess but it isn't the worst thing ever.

Only way to lower it is nerf (unneeded imho since the dude was sitting at a sub 50 winrate in all elos even before God Fist) or adjustment at this point.

I'm not saying it's wrong for a lot of people to main a champion if they have fun playing them, I'm just saying that I get bored of seeing someone play them in like every match I play. I want more champ pick diversity..

Carl Grimes TWD1Apr 10, 201713 votes

The solution to that is buff and/or make other champions more "fun" to play. Not nerf a relatively fun champion.

GULAG 4 UApr 10, 20173 votes

well, depending on perspective, some would say lee sin is OP.

Disclaimer: This is not necessarily my perspective.

Vegas DadApr 10, 201717 votes

[{quoted}](name=Carl Grimes TWD1,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXeEPedo,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-10T17:49:22.524+0000)

The solution to that is buff and/or make other champions more "fun" to play. Not nerf a relatively fun champion.

The problem is the reason lee sin is "fun" is because he is superior. Its always fun to be the OP person stomping. So the moment we make all the other champions as powerful, is the moment they all stop playing lee sin magically he isnt all that fun anymore.... yet we havent changed him....

ModAcademy KaynApr 10, 20175 votes

Even at his lowest low, Lee Sin has always maintained a high playrate though...

LankPantsApr 10, 201710 votes

That's because Lee Sin's never been a bad champion, Not once in his history.

AnidanApr 11, 20178 votes

He's been out of the meta several times in his existence. There were times when the boards were calling him crap, such as during the Cinderhulk meta, for example.

So yes he evidently has been a bad champion. Selective memory works only when people don't remember the history you're leaving out.

Now, one could claim that he's good too frequently and I would agree, but that's a different complaint than saying he's never been bad. Alternatively, you could just question why everyone else isn't good as often as Lee and the question is just as valid as the statement that Lee is good too often, and both of those instantly set a dramatically different tone for discussion.

LankPantsApr 11, 20175 votes

And yet he still had the highest pickrate amongst junglers which only increased as elo went up and he still saw competitive play, especially in the east.

He's never been a bad champion, on any patch since at least the end of season 2.

AnidanApr 11, 20177 votes

I'm not sure if you know this but... pick-rates don't tend to mean jack shit in terms of whether or not someone is good or bad. It can give you an idea, but pulling it out as an answer like that isn't a good defense. Pudge has always maintained 15-20%+ popularity in DotA2 since his release and if you think he's been considered 'good' throughout all of that then I don't know what to tell you. Oh, and his competitive pick-rate was still high because the competitive scene isn't the pub scene. You'll notice that even when Yi is considered OP he's still never picked in competitive.

Pick-rates like you're using them there are an extremely narrow view of the overall balance of the game.

LankPantsApr 11, 20173 votes

If he was bad at the time then how do you explain his competitive play in the east, specifically he was about the 5th most popular jungler in Korea and 3rd most popular jungler in China even during the time you are citing. Is everyone so used to Lee being so busted that that can be considered "bad"?

AnidanApr 11, 20175 votes

Because he works well in a coordinated team. He's been picked in competitive multiple times when he's considered bad for pub play. Lee will always be able to be used in competitive longer than he can in pubs. Always.

Besides, if competitive is your primary standing argument then in the eyes of the boards your argument should be meaningless because many of them want the game balanced for casual play, not pro play. And I further contend that pickrates are not a good statistic in isolation to determine strength, as you're using it, using Pudge as my example from DotA2, and Ezreal as my example in League. All popular characters that are constantly popular in the pub scene no matter what their actual state of balance is. The only way to make pick-rates a viable statistic in isolation to try to determine the strength of the pick is if an overwhelming portion of the playerbase is meta sheep, and this game has shown that this is simply not true.

LankPantsApr 11, 20175 votes

Because he works well in a coordinated team. He's been picked in competitive multiple times when he's considered bad for pub play.

Logical conclusion time, if he's played in high level play and he has the highest pickrate what does that say about him. Is he a bad champ? Occam's razor would say no. Every other champ goes through periods of being utter garbage, especially if they come anywhere near Lee (RIP Sej) but Lee Sin mains are special snowflakes and papa Rito can't do anything that would piss them off.

Lee will always be able to be used in competitive longer than he can in pubs. Always.

Sounds a lot like Azir, maybe it's time that Riot stops with their bias, accepts that Lee is terrible for the game and cracks some fuckboi skull with their nerf hammer just like they did with Azir.

AnidanApr 11, 20172 votes

Occam's Razor isn't always right now, is it? Occam's Razor is used to simplify a situation into something more manageable but sometimes that situation simply can't be simplified as much as we want.

And honestly: It sounds like you harbor the same kind of bias Riot does but in the opposite direction, and somehow that makes you more correct to hold it? How are you going to accuse them of bias while you hold your own so strongly? The boards demands the game to be balanced for casual play but lo and behold when people resort to pulling out competitive stats to prove their point and isolated statistics that can be used in many different ways.

I can go to champion.gg, as an example, and tell you that Lee's damage isn't as crazy as everyone says: he's ranked 33 of 39 in terms of jungler damage output, so therefore his damage shouldn't be touched, right? But that's too narrow to speak on, isn't it? He also dies a lot (26/39) despite claims that he seems to be impossible to catch and kill. Those statistics would be flawed in your eyes, and yet you do the same with pick rate. You pick and choose what statistics are convenient to you and go from there.

You want me to be honest? I could see Lee getting a bit of a love tap, but he doesn't need much more. It sounds like you're so biased you can't see him possibly being balanced despite the fact that he very well can be. And frustration, if you plan to pull that out, is a weak claim as well because half of everyone can be claimed to be frustrating to play against--just getting that one out of the way immediately because I absolutely do not care about subjectivity when discussing balance.

AnidanApr 11, 20173 votes

now we can agree. I also think that other champions should be balanced to the same standard as all of the rest. Riot is definitely showing bias toward certain champions, Lee among them (which you probably noted I said they did). That said, I personally think the rest of the roster should be balanced more similarly to Lee, where they're careful not to hit him too hard or buff him too much on any given single pass. Gutting Lee is not the answer: giving everyone else equal treatment to Lee is, in my opinion. Obviously nobody should have to fear that their favorite champion will be unusable, and some designs are just outright bad for the game, like Azir, but Lee is actually not on that list of poor designs, in my opinion. He just seems like it because he's so routinely dominant, but that's on Riot, not Lee. His kit is pretty good about rewarding skill, while giving you plenty of room to screw up--that's perfectly fine. He should maybe have some of his consistency hit, but otherwise he's fine. Other champions need to be balanced as carefully as Lee tends to be. What happened to Sejuani, as you brought up, was completely unfair to Sejuani and the people that played her, and the justification Riot used was unfair to absolutely everybody, since being treated unfairly better is still unfair treatment, just not negative unfair treatment. It was a slap to the face to everyone.

I wholly agree that Riot needs to balance everyone more akin to Lee with careful measures rather than the whole "they had their time in spotlight" balance mentality.

LankPantsApr 11, 20174 votes

but Lee is actually not on that list of poor designs, in my opinion.

I completely disagree. Lee is problematic for the exact same reason as champions like Azir, Ekko, Thresh, Camille, Yasuo, Elise, Jayce and Nidalee. They all quite simply do too much. Until Riot is willing to outright remove elements of their kits I seriously doubt any of them will be remotely balancable. At best the swing wildly between overpowered and garbage, at worst they're perpetually overpowered as Lee Sin and Elise have been for a long time now.

Gutting Lee is not the answer: giving everyone else equal treatment to Lee is, in my opinion.

Equal treatment flows both ways. Even if Riot legitimately changes their philosophy I think Lee Sin is a massive outstanding case. The simple fact is that under their current philosophy Lee Sin should have been put in the dumpster 3+ years ago. It's actually quite insulting to players who did see their main champs get dumpstered with excuses like the infamous "time out of the spotlight" quote used as justification to not ever see that applied to Lee Sin and worse yet see Riot go out and defend Lee Sin with bullshit like "we like Lee Sin because we think he's a fun champion to watch".

As someone who does and did main Sejuani at the time when she was gutted I find the idea that Lee Sin should be allowed to escape Riot's policy of gutting, even if they later change that policy utterly insulting and disgusting.

BlåbæretApr 10, 201713 votes

[{quoted}](name=Carl Grimes TWD1,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXeEPedo,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-10T17:49:22.524+0000)

The solution to that is buff and/or make other champions more "fun" to play. Not nerf a relatively fun champion.

He's not played because he's fun, he's played because he can dominate games much harder than most champs.

Voluug13Apr 10, 20172 votes

Sejuani says hi from her dumpster hut.

Lux Is Mai WaifuApr 10, 20173 votes

Playing against him isn't enjoyable.

TerchioApr 11, 201710 votes

No, actually 42% is his...

Holy hell, 42% is his pick rate.

Krys StarApr 11, 20175 votes

Lucian right behind him at 43.68%. Sick.

deadlychuckApr 11, 20177 votes

If it was the first time he was over a 5% win rate in the past 2 years, then i wouldn't mind this. However, this is only about a 12% increase from his normal pick rate. Clearly there is something wrong with his mechanics which makes him more appealing to play than literally every other champion besides yasuo (a whole other can of worms).

It's pretty easy to tell what it is though. He's a "play maker" which for all intents and purposes equates to "he's over loaded as all hell".

AmazoXApr 11, 20171 votes

It's just the new skin.

deadlychuckApr 11, 20176 votes

He had about a 30% play rate before the skin was even announced. Maybe people were just brushing up on their mechanics in anticipation for a possible new skin. Maybe? Yeah, probably what it was.

TorgalApr 11, 20175 votes

Remove ward hop

KidKaiserApr 11, 20174 votes

back in 2012/2013 Riot decided to remove ward hopping.

but that coincided with Insec's newly revealed Lee Sin mechanics.

apparently pros across the world practiced that mechanic religiously. seeing as it's THE #LCSBigPlay at that time. and still to this day when pulled off.

the backlash from the community most specifically from the higher elo group/. at that moment Riot knew they fucked shit up.

so they reverted the patch quicker than the plague could spread.

sadly i'm not sure which patch it was in, or if it's even documented anywhere.

IdveYsUfSKApr 11, 20174 votes

They should increase the cd of his skills to make plays. Compared to other jungle champs, he is way too oppressive. Low cd which gives too much opportunities to make plays even he failed to the first or second one. I would say nerf both his q and w or just ult cd.

Guy Fox TeemoApr 11, 20173 votes

1: Lee just got a new skin 2: Lee has almost ALWAYS had a 35-40% pick rate

You can't just change a champion for being popular, he has been this way the entire time he's been in league. One of the most popular champs in the game.

Yea it's probably annoying to see him all the time, and there s nothing riot could do to lower his pick rate besides gutting him