Will we ever get another mechanically simple champion?

KilljoyX··69 votes·16,596 views

Champions like Garen, Nunu, Ashe (prerework), fiddle, and Evelynn have simple yet effective kits and aren't infinitely mobile. They're unique and really simple mechanically. Do you ever think we will get another champion which is like that? Simple?

It might be because I prefer ult mobility champs or speed boosts over dashes but I just miss this design perspective.

143 Comments

RiotRiot ShadowStorm19 votes

How do you feel about some of the more recent champions on this front? There are a few that hit the simple-but-effective mechanics for me, but curious how you see it. For the record, the last 10 champions were:

Bard RekSai Kalista Azir Gnar Braum Velkoz Yasuo Jinx Lucian

(Could also include the Sion rework, since he's essentially a new champ at this point)

How do these champions stack up for you in terms of mechanical complexity?

Vacus14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=b4Jf0Rq9,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-05-07T20:29:57.865+0000)

How do you feel about some of the more recent champions on this front? There are a few that hit the simple-but-effective mechanics for me, but curious how you see it. For the record, the last 10 champions were:

Bard RekSai Kalista Azir Gnar Braum Velkoz Yasuo Jinx Lucian

(Could also include the Sion rework, since he's essentially a new champ at this point)

How do these champions stack up for you in terms of mechanical complexity?

My opinon:

Bard Dear god no. RekSai Stance changer, automatically complicated. Kalista Mechanically intensive with unique mechanics. Azir Extremely complex. Gnar Uncontrolled stance changer with unique mechanics. Braum Reasonably simple! Shield can take a little getting used to but any champion will have a learning curve of some kind. Velkoz All skillshots, squishy immobile mage, not simple. Yasuo No one thinks Yasuo is even close to simple. Jinx Not super complicated, but toggling Q along with all her other skills being skillshots doesn't put her at the bottom. Lucian Pretty simple; his Q can have some learning curve, but mostly he just wants to do ADC things.

As someone who complains about increasing complexity (though not the OP), I'd say that Braum, Jinx, and Lucian do not bother me on that front, they're simple enough. All the other champions (even though I love Vel'koz) worry me on complexity grounds; none of them would be a problem if they were alone, but they represent a pattern that I don't entirely like.

SociopathFriend13 votes

Just a nitpick, Vel'Koz is as simple as every other mage that does the same thing.

"Point and shoot" sums him up nicely, none of his moves require anymore thought than aim. I'm aware you said not simple, but he really is as far as kit-design is concerned.

Rando McGee2 votes

{quoted} RekSai Stance changer, automatically complicated.

Udyr would like a word with you.

KilljoyX41 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=b4Jf0Rq9,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-05-07T20:29:57.865+0000)

How do you feel about some of the more recent champions on this front? There are a few that hit the simple-but-effective mechanics for me, but curious how you see it. For the record, the last 10 champions were:

Bard RekSai Kalista Azir Gnar Braum Velkoz Yasuo Jinx Lucian

(Could also include the Sion rework, since he's essentially a new champ at this point)

How do these champions stack up for you in terms of mechanical complexity?

Bard Has a moderately complex kit but is extremely complex in practice due to the way his passive/gate/ult all work.

RekSai Is the poster child for complexity in my mind, he has a ton of abilities, leaves important locations behind (burrows), introduced an entirely new mechanic of standing on something to delete it, and several other complex issues.

Kalista This champion has a pretty weird kit and really the only complex parts are her ult and passive. Her passive is really really strong but mostly is mechanical complexity and not kit complexity and her ult is truly unique I'd rate this fine but a bit overboard on the passive.

Azir Oh boy this is one of the other complexity creep champs that reminds me of syndra in terms of a ton of things to micro manage and given that the AI on the soldiers is abysmal it's even more so.

Gnar See RekSai but with an uncontrollable or low control passive.

Braum I really like this. He's not extremely simple but he's at least more straight forward than most of the others. His mechanics are different. This is a fine level of complexity to have. Even his mobility is fair since it's to another unit and goes only 1 way.

Velkoz This is what I meant by simple champions. He does have a different ult but it's not unusual to have different types of skill shots/abilities. He has very simple but effective abilities and a simple kit. This is the type of thing I'm talking about.

Yasuo I'm not sure I have to call this champion complex and defend it. This should be clear.

Jinx This champ is fairly simple but like kalista has high micro level play due to being an ADC with a HUGE speed boost. Ignoring power level on her she's fine. My problem with her is more or less that she has an ability which was dubbed too powerful for a melee champ (jax) at 130% AS

Lucian He's fine too complexity wise my only problem with him is he also has an ability (passive) dubbed too powerful for a melee champ (Yi)

Sion This is EXACTLY what I mean. He has a unique and awesome kit. His "Mobility" is his ultimate much like malphite and the rest of his kit is useful and creates a really cool and solid champ without mobility creep, without overloaded or excessively complex kits.

So of the recently released champs you have more or less 4/11 which are simple with 1 sort of in the middle (Jinx) and 6/11 champs being complex, and in most cases complex in the extreme.

This isn't to say we should never get one or the other but it just feels like most champs are extreme mobility creeped or they are extremely complex.

Jambulija3 votes

I feel the same way.

I too like a kit simple and easy to grasp, spells that don't require special conditions, or depend on other spells, or disturb a random teammates flow of action. I hate to hesitate should I ult with kal and bard and guess what the team mate has in mind.

That being said; simple to understand\execute spells doesn't mean they are easy to master. For example I'm yet to become decently good with Garen and I have played against Garens that are almost indestructible. Like this: http://tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com/files/2014/04/linex_comeon.gif

Slaaneshine2 votes

Secret is his W, and in buying an early boot enchantment; notably Alacrity. Once you learn how to itemize against champions and the like well, and when the activate the W's %damage shield, you can make Garen by the far the hardest tank to kill by miles.

Dandymann3 votes

{quoted}

Bard Has a moderately complex kit but is extremely complex in practice due to the way his passive/gate/ult all work.

RekSai Is the poster child for complexity in my mind, he has a ton of abilities, leaves important locations behind (burrows), introduced an entirely new mechanic of standing on something to delete it, and several other complex issues.

Kalista This champion has a pretty weird kit and really the only complex parts are her ult and passive. Her passive is really really strong but mostly is mechanical complexity and not kit complexity and her ult is truly unique I'd rate this fine but a bit overboard on the passive.

Azir Oh boy this is one of the other complexity creep champs that reminds me of syndra in terms of a ton of things to micro manage and given that the AI on the soldiers is abysmal it's even more so.

Gnar See RekSai but with an uncontrollable or low control passive.

Braum I really like this. He's not extremely simple but he's at least more straight forward than most of the others. His mechanics are different. This is a fine level of complexity to have. Even his mobility is fair since it's to another unit and goes only 1 way.

Velkoz This is what I meant by simple champions. He does have a different ult but it's not unusual to have different types of skill shots/abilities. He has very simple but effective abilities and a simple kit. This is the type of thing I'm talking about.

Yasuo I'm not sure I have to call this champion complex and defend it. This should be clear.

Jinx This champ is fairly simple but like kalista has high micro level play due to being an ADC with a HUGE speed boost. Ignoring power level on her she's fine. My problem with her is more or less that she has an ability which was dubbed too powerful for a melee champ (jax) at 130% AS

Lucian He's fine too complexity wise my only problem with him is he also has an ability (passive) dubbed too powerful for a melee champ (Yi)

Sion This is EXACTLY what I mean. He has a unique and awesome kit. His "Mobility" is his ultimate much like malphite and the rest of his kit is useful and creates a really cool and solid champ without mobility creep, without overloaded or excessively complex kits.

So of the recently released champs you have more or less 4/11 which are simple with 1 sort of in the middle (Jinx) and 6/11 champs being complex, and in most cases complex in the extreme.

This isn't to say we should never get one or the other but it just feels like most champs are extreme mobility creeped or they are extremely complex.

People in this conversation keep saying Yasuo is complex, but I disagree in relation to this question. Mechanically speaking, Yasuo has: Q: Poke that can proc auto attack effects and crits, since mana isn't a management problem, landing it a few times in a row creates relatively simple ranged poke that can become initiation W: Blocks particles, used defensively for escapes or safe farming, something useful for a melee champ E: Allows Yasuo to position to land his poke, or escape/chase through an enemy's own minions R: Does one of the things a good melee champs ult should do, allows Yasuo to initiate for his team or without their help. Without it, he lacks any real way to initiate effectively without a teammate. All he has to do to initiate is land his "relatively" simple combo. This also allows for nice synergy with teamates that allow him to ult without even having to land his Q.

TLDR: Yasuo has a high skill floor and ceiling, but this is because his kit is simple an unique enough to be combined into something powerful, albeit more complex.

KilljoyX11 votes

{quoted} TLDR: Yasuo has a high skill floor and ceiling, but this is because his kit is simple an unique enough to be combined into something powerful, albeit more complex.

So yeah. A champ which has a combo move which isn't even listed in his kit definitely qualifies as complex.

S3ntinel7 votes

I can see you don't play Yasuo. In writing, yes. Very simple. But you have to micro-manage your flow to know when to initiate. You have to be skilled to land your q if the other laner has half a brain. Your e you have to usually make sure is stacked. If your low, you have to have the reflexes of Drax from GOTG (sorry, had to reference) to block stuff like a nid spear, jinx ult, ashe ult, draven ult, ez ult, any other potential projectile in the game, etc. And your ult can be your death if you just hit it whenever. And, put them all together, and it is a very complex champ. Add that to being a squishy fighter, and he has a hard learning curve.

Kamiroo Wolf32 votes

{quoted}

Bard Has a moderately complex kit but is extremely complex in practice due to the way his passive/gate/ult all work.

RekSai Is the poster child for complexity in my mind, he has a ton of abilities, leaves important locations behind (burrows), introduced an entirely new mechanic of standing on something to delete it, and several other complex issues.

Kalista This champion has a pretty weird kit and really the only complex parts are her ult and passive. Her passive is really really strong but mostly is mechanical complexity and not kit complexity and her ult is truly unique I'd rate this fine but a bit overboard on the passive.

Azir Oh boy this is one of the other complexity creep champs that reminds me of syndra in terms of a ton of things to micro manage and given that the AI on the soldiers is abysmal it's even more so.

Gnar See RekSai but with an uncontrollable or low control passive.

Braum I really like this. He's not extremely simple but he's at least more straight forward than most of the others. His mechanics are different. This is a fine level of complexity to have. Even his mobility is fair since it's to another unit and goes only 1 way.

Velkoz This is what I meant by simple champions. He does have a different ult but it's not unusual to have different types of skill shots/abilities. He has very simple but effective abilities and a simple kit. This is the type of thing I'm talking about.

Yasuo I'm not sure I have to call this champion complex and defend it. This should be clear.

Jinx This champ is fairly simple but like kalista has high micro level play due to being an ADC with a HUGE speed boost. Ignoring power level on her she's fine. My problem with her is more or less that she has an ability which was dubbed too powerful for a melee champ (jax) at 130% AS

Lucian He's fine too complexity wise my only problem with him is he also has an ability (passive) dubbed too powerful for a melee champ (Yi)

Sion This is EXACTLY what I mean. He has a unique and awesome kit. His "Mobility" is his ultimate much like malphite and the rest of his kit is useful and creates a really cool and solid champ without mobility creep, without overloaded or excessively complex kits.

So of the recently released champs you have more or less 4/11 which are simple with 1 sort of in the middle (Jinx) and 6/11 champs being complex, and in most cases complex in the extreme.

This isn't to say we should never get one or the other but it just feels like most champs are extreme mobility creeped or they are extremely complex.

Am I the only one who noticed that he called RekSai a guy? SHE is quite the lovely lady(granted she is a bit high maintenance not the best looker on the field, but she is still a delight), I'll have you know!

ZENEESER17 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kamiroo Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=b4Jf0Rq9,comment-id=000f00020002,timestamp=2015-05-07T22:13:58.285+0000)

Am I the only one who noticed that he called RekSai a guy? SHE is quite the lovely lady(granted she is a bit high maintenance not the best looker on the field, but she is still a delight), I'll have you know!

I noticed. Still hoping for a lady skin, something similar to gentleman Chogath

qetzel3 votes

What are you talking about. Her skin is a lady skin...

Terchio13 votes

And Chogath is still a dude, but his gentleman skin is a thing. They dressed up the dino dude, why not the lovely lady?

Rew71111 votes

How about, Madame Rek'Sai?

RiotRiot ShadowStorm11 votes

Riot Plz

Criomhthann6 votes

Nope. It bothered me too.

Killstrado2 votes

Dorothy Mantooth is a saint!

That's on my mind every time someone calls rek a he

lightdragoon8811 votes

SHE!!!!

RekSai is a SHE!!!!

Quort3 votes

{quoted} RekSai Is the poster child for complexity in my mind, he has a ton of abilities, leaves important locations behind (burrows), introduced an entirely new mechanic of standing on something to delete it, and several other complex issues.

Incorrect! You can step on Zyra's seeds to get rid of them at the cost of Zyra gaining sight of the champion that stepped on them.

KilljoyX2 votes

{quoted}

Incorrect! You can step on Zyra's seeds to get rid of them at the cost of Zyra gaining sight of the champion that stepped on them.

There is a significant difference between walking over something and creating a new animation for champions to clear something over 3 seconds.

Additionally sorry about RekSai I did know she was a she but typo'ed it.

Audiomancy2 votes

It's not a new animation though. It's used in Dominion when capturing Points.

RiotRiot ShadowStorm13 votes

Cool, thanks for breaking that out. Based on other responses, that seems to be how people see it too. Just to add in my views, here's how I personally would break it down.

Mechanically Complex Yasuo Azir Kalista

Mechanically Moderate RekSai Lucian Gnar Jinx

Mechanically Simple Velkoz Braum Sion Bard

Not too far off from other opinions overall, but I seem to skew toward viewing them on the simpler side. Good to check that sense against yours! Bard is the big outlier for me, where everybody else is putting him at high complexity, so I'll throw in my thoughts there:

I'm looking at this purely in terms of mechanical skill, which I determine from two main questions:

  1. How quick/precise do I need to be with my inputs to do the things I want to do?
  2. How many input decisions do I need to make in a short period of time (~5-10 seconds) to do the things I want to do?

For example, I find Kalista to be mechanically complex because of #1 - she requires a lot of quick and precise inputs to jump where you want (especially as you gain AS). Yasuo is more an example of #2, where you have to make a lot of decisions in a short period of time to move around how you want to and set up knockups.

Really, it boils down to the moment-to-moment complexity - how hard is this champion to play in isolation?

But there's another kind of complexity, which I would call strategic complexity.

  1. How much forethought (tracking cooldowns, overall map situation, etc.) do I need to have when playing this champion?
  2. How much do I need to react to other champions, on both teams (their positioning, skills, etc.), when playing this champion?

For example, Teleport is a strategic spell, largely because of #1. Ezreal, by contrast, isn't too strategic; looking at #2, you kind of don't care who is on either team. You just do Ezreal things regardless.

This is the minute-to-minute complexity - how hard is this champion to play in relation to the game state?

Here's how I would break out these champs in strategic complexity:

Strategically Complex BardRekSai Gnar Yasuo

Strategically Moderate Azir Jinx Kalista Sion

** Strategically Simple** Lucian Braum Velkoz

I think it's the combination of the two that makes a champion "simple" or "complex" overall.

So for Bard, I think he's simple on a moment-to-moment basis (mechanical). If you know what you're trying to do (stun that guy, heal that guy, Zhonya's that tower, take a magical journey through that wall, wheeeeeee!), it's fairly straightforward to do them. But knowing WHAT things to do, and when, gets harder. That's the minute-to-minute, and he's pretty complex there. And overall, I think it combines to make an overall complex champion.

So lastly, here's how I would break them out in terms of overall complexity:

Complex Overall Bard Yasuo Azir Kalista

Moderate Overall RekSai Gnar Jinx Lucian

Simple Overall Sion Velkoz Braum

Whew.... long wall of text there. If you read through it all, thanks! Remember, this is just my personal point of view. I'm curious if it makes sense, and if you all agree/disagree with any of that.

Do you think we're skewing too far on particular kind of complexity? Is it more of an overall complexity? Other thoughts? Fire away! I tend to prefer champs that lean more on the simple side myself, so really want to get a sense of how other players feel.

KilljoyX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=b4Jf0Rq9,comment-id=000f00020005,timestamp=2015-05-08T19:19:21.157+0000) Do you think we're skewing too far on particular kind of complexity? Is it more of an overall complexity? Other thoughts? Fire away! I tend to prefer champs that lean more on the simple side myself, so really want to get a sense of how other players feel.

A fair point about strategic complexity. I am more worried about excessive mechanical complexity but complexity in general isn't automatically a good thing. I'd say this is mostly right but I'd put bard on moderate mechanics just due to his passive/combos.

RiotRiot ShadowStorm3 votes

Yeah, I can see moving Bard to moderate mechanics - his skills do require some specific positioning and aim to use properly, beyond just normal skillshot aiming.

To answer your original question in the thread, I do think we'll continue to release champions who are on the simpler side for mechanics. The trick is to do it while still adding new, unique, and fun characters to the game - but I think that's entirely doable. I've been pretty excited by the champs we're working on, and I think we have some that will match what you're looking for.

(standard disclaimer that stuff in development can change, so no guarantees of course)

Nameless Voice5 votes

Personally, I'm fine with complex champions, so long as their complexity doesn't limit the interactions and counterplay of their opponents.

When their complexity allows them, with sufficient mechanical skill, to counter anything that their opponent can do, or at least makes the complex champion's player's skill have a much larger effect in the matchup than their opponent's skill, then that is a really bad design in my eyes.

For example, Azir is really mechanically complex, but he still only does a few specific things (mostly DPS and zone control), and has a lot of weakness in other areas.

Meanwhile, Yasuo and Kalista have kits that, with enough mechanical skill, can complete shut out opponents (skillshot and mêlée champions, respectively), making the match up mostly dependant on the Yasuo/Kalista player's mechanics and mistakes, rather than a fair match of the two players' skills against each other.

The first kind of complexity is great. The second kind of complexity is one of the things that I really hate in League of Legends.

Kamekazí1 votes

Lots Of Typing :< I only looked at the pictures. like how i read books.

Kamekazí1 votes

Q get a stun put heals Down. Dont Fail Ur Ult And Make People Jump In Ur Portals.. -BARD Spin To Kill Camps And Then Use Ur tunnels To Gank Over Walls And Have Good Knock Up Cc.-Reksai Braum Hit Stuff and make other people hit stuff to stun and jump onfront of people with ur ginat mofoing sheild.-braum LAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZORRRRRRRRRRRRZ-velkoz WINDDDDDDDDDDDDDDPOWWAHHHHHH-yasuo TWOGUNS MISSLES BOOM BOOM HIT STUFF.- JINX Dash Shoot Guns Duoble Bullett Ult Stuffs- Lucian Sion Throw E To Slow So u Can Land Good Q Foot Ball Tackel Away And Towards People -sion

Alhough i do agree that gnar kalisa and azir are "COMPLEX"

Sinister Snail8 votes

I think the most egregious example of overly mechanical champs in that bunch would be Yasuo.

I don't think he's OP, he just has such complicated and stuffed kits that it makes really confusing problems. Poor Yasuo has such a cool concept, but a few things are just... unnecessary. I mean, think of how much of his power budget could be put towards numbers and scalings if he didn't have double crit, if Flow was an actual resource he had to manage, if his ult didn't give him armor pen, etc. (That last one bugs me the most; it's counter intuitive that the super-cool shrieking anime-dunk doesn't do the killing damage, it just sets up him cleaning up kills with autos and basic abilities.)

Besides the fact that it's hard to balance right, it also sucks for new players going against him. God I remember the first twenty times I faced him as a mage, it felt like 90% of the time I literally couldn't touch him with skill shots. He either wind walled it, dashed to a minion to dodge, and if he can't actually outplay me, don't worry, he gets a Get Out of Jail Flow. Meanwhile, I've been blowing mana on trying to damage a manaless champion. That never ends well.

Now I know how to bait out stuff like that, and he really isn't a huge problem in lane anymore (no more than any AD assassin) but I distinctly remember being on the verge of quitting league because I felt like he was literally invincible against mages.

Speaking of mages!

Velkoz I started league a long time ago, playing old xerath as my main. Never really was big on league, kind of lost interest. Wasn't that fun, always got my ass beat, lost contact with the friends that played it.

Flash forward to march 2014. I'm in college, meet a lot of new people, turns out they play league. I get back into it, see a tentacle mage monster is on free week, try him out.

Instantly fell in love, been maining him ever since. Vel'Koz is why I'm playing league today. I'm really not in any place to make an objective analysis on him because of that, but holy shit I love Vel'Koz so much for so many reasons I could rant about forever. Really though, looking back, it's nice how simple he was to pick up as a new player.

Passive, land three spells for bonus damage. Q, shoots straight, splits in two. Can detonate early. Slows. W, shoots straight, does damage twice. Highest damage, no CC. E, ground-target, knock up. R, go Alderaan on their asses. Slows.

It took only a few games to understand what his combos were and why. "Oh, I never lead with W; use Q or E to set it up with CC, and complete the passive stack. Makes sense." "Oh, wow, shouldn't use the E as initiation most of the time, since it's my only real defense." "Oh wow, I'm pretty defenseless while ulting, better choose when and where I use it carefully."

All of the complexity and learning wasn't memorizing a laundry list of mechanics and debuffs; it was emergent, resulting from some very simple abilities. I like seeing this in champs, and I think it happens more often than not. Really, I think Yasuo and Kalista are the only overly mechanical champions you listed.

Well that turned into a long post.

The Red Warden4 votes

Hard: Bard Azir Gnar Yasuo

Medium:Velkoz RekSai Kalista Lucian Jinx Sion

Easy:Braum

Barely any of the newer champions are new player friendly.

Penta Penguin2 votes

simplicity;

Bard = not at all, team dependant, difficult and sometimes dangerous Ult that requires full mastery, fits a niche that no other support is forced to ("Roaming support").

Rek'sai = Not at all. Two unique mechanics, one will make your life harder if you're not prepared to practice a lot to get used to the new vision.

Kalista = just no

azir = please stop

gnar = everything individually is okay, but the champion is loaded with many different themes and ideas.

Braum = good

Vel'koz = even better. This is the last perfect champion. Even though he has a unique mechanic and a weird Q, one use is all you need to understand it. But there is also a lot of room for mastery in how you use Q and coordinating your spells.

Yasuo = Not really. Pretty nuanced. His Ulti requires a lot of game-knowledge about every champion, who can knock up, who can jump/leap, etc.

Jinx = Another perfect champion

WolfChases3 votes

Every single one of those is kinda complex. Ofc few of those are less complex than the others, for example Lucian is less complex than Kalista but that depends on the elo. Low elo Lucian is easy to play, but in higher elos you have to use Lucian's kit at full potential, speed buff from his W, angles from his Q, etc and that's not easy when you are playing against high elo enemy. :)

If you compare current Ashe with Lucian you can easily see the difference between easy and complex champion through all elos.

Nidalee SO NYAAA12 votes

For me I never liked ADCs with dashes. It takes away the point of good positioning. I don't know how many I caught Graves out of position and he just dashes away

disregardable10 votes

I'd say Braum was fairly simple/immobile. Jinx even moreso than him, and the last truly immobile champion was Nami. So, we had some in the last 6-15 champions.

KilljoyX6 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=b4Jf0Rq9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-07T18:11:32.584+0000)

I'd say Braum was fairly simple/immobile. Jinx even moreso than him, and the last truly immobile champion was Nami. So, we had some in the last 6-15 champions.

But of those which are simple? Jinx is extremely complex compared to the champs I pointed out and is highly mobile in some situations. Braum is closer to simple but not really because of the way his passive and wall function. Nami I do like a lot.

McAllister6 votes

Wtf is complex about Jinx? Deciding whether you want range+AoE or attack speed? Landing her two long-range line skillshots? Dealing with the claptraps arming time? Are you accidentally running under towers with your passive?

Her kit is about as complex as current Ashe. Instead of toggling rockets, you toggle frostshot. Zzzap is a whole lot simpler than Volley, I generally have no idea whether Volley's going to connect when I send it through a minion wave. Claptraps are a lot easier to use than Hawkshot, I generally don't use Hawkshot more than 5-10 times a game because I don't know where or when to use it. And the ults work about the same, except that Ashe wants to use hers at the beginning of the fight and Jinx at the end.

AyRe CoNteMpT9 votes

you asked for mechanically simple, not for simple as in braindead. sure, jinx needs smart positioning more than maybe a kalista, but she is still as mechanically simple as every other champ without combos. tho i think there is no real "simplicity" to mechanics, its all the same really. for me, personally, rengar is the hardest champ to play, mechanically, but thats just me.

also, i think garen is unbelieveably hard to play, even tho all his abilities are kinda "just press the button"-spells. there's a difference between being hard to play (use effectively) and being able to jump around using your incredible 55 apm.

Nidalee SO NYAAA3 votes

If Jinx has bad positioning shes done for. If Lucian or Graves or Kalista have bad positioning they can just fix it with their mobility

Wheatloaf8 votes

Vel'Koz isn't a truly immobile champion?

Eye see how it is ;-;

Jerememe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=b4Jf0Rq9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-07T18:11:32.584+0000)

I'd say Braum was fairly simple/immobile. Jinx even moreso than him, and the last truly immobile champion was Nami. So, we had some in the last 6-15 champions.

Not saying your other points are wrong, but Vel'koz was released more recently I believe. He is immobile and simple as well. The only argument you can make is his Q isn't AS simple as say, Brand's.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't mind if more "combo-based" mages like Brand, Vel'koz and Anivia existed.

TheUntitledKing2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=b4Jf0Rq9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-07T18:11:32.584+0000)

I'd say Braum was fairly simple/immobile. Jinx even moreso than him, and the last truly immobile champion was Nami. So, we had some in the last 6-15 champions.

the last truly immobile champion was Nami.

truly immobile champion

Nami.

Velkoz What.

Mandang010 votes

Yes. When CertainlyT goes super saiyan, he'll release a champion with no actives, but instead 30 passives.

Decrit1 votes

of which 5 different microslows, 10 true damage dealers and other 10 with some kind of hyperscaling. I see it.

No heals tho, full glass cannon.

Keevalroy3 votes

It's okay though, he also has a secret passive that gives him a shield and a windwall because why not?

L Rayquaza2 votes

You forgot the 2 minute cool down untargetable revive portion of the passive

McAllister8 votes

Vel'koz was pretty recent, right? He's simple.

I wish speed boosts were better, and longer. I think the soft cap on speed should be reduced or removed.

iainB856 votes

The Ryze rework is all you need. Try to read his passive without getting a massive headache, I dare you.

Arcane Mastery [ Passive ]

Casting spells grants a stack of Arcane Mastery. At 5 stacks, Ryze becomes supercharged, gaining a Mana shield that blocks 25 [+ 5 per level + 8% of >Maximum Mana] damage and causing his spell casts to reduce the cooldown of his other spells by the value of Overload [ Q ]’s cooldown.

So to understand this passive, and what it might yield you, you need to keep track of stacks, your current level, your overall mana, the percentage of that mana at max, and the cooldown of another ability.

Riot is getting more and more convoluted with their champion designs as time goes on. I guess they are just trying to keep it interesting?

Cremina1 votes

Sorry if I miss a point made in a previous comment, I did my best to read most of it and gather how the conversation is flowing.

Now, I feel a huge problem with this conversation is defining "Simple". We can have (what I consider) "simple" champions in terms of mechanics (e.g. Sona, Udyr, old Soraka, Sion, Malph). We also have (again, what I consider) "simple" champions in terms of how to play them (e.g. Annie, Amumu, Caitlyn, Irelia) because even if the mechanics are not so simple they remain mostly a "straight forward" champion once you learn how to play them. You can also have a "simple" champion from the perspective of their roles (e.g. Morgana is quite easier to play as a mid laner than as a support IMO; you have to micro manage your cd's way more effectively to have an impact as a support).

So I guess the contribution I'm trying to make here is to state not only your "simple" champion example but also to explain a little bit on why or how you define it as simple. If you ask me Rammus is a simple champion in terms of mechanics, but if you truly want to be effective for your team, even knowing when to select him is as complex as it goes. Even in the proper team comp, he is also very situational when it comes to team fights. Do you want to CC the adc to abuse your W and Thronmail combo? or, do you want to remove that mid laner who can 1v4 the rest of your team?

I know this is a short example (and I love baby Rammus ) but lets go and give more insight in our comments ;)

KilljoyX3 votes

{quoted} So I guess the contribution I'm trying to make here is to state not only your "simple" champion example but also to explain a little bit on why or how you define it as simple. If you ask me Rammus is a simple champion in terms of mechanics, but if you truly want to be effective for your team, even knowing when to select him is as complex as it goes. Even in the proper team comp, he is also very situational when it comes to team fights. Do you want to CC the adc to abuse your W and Thronmail combo? or, do you want to remove that mid laner who can 1v4 the rest of your team?

Rammus is a simple champ. Making targeting decisions doesn't make the champ complex. Caitlyn isn't complex. Irelia isn't complex. Annie isn't complex. Amumu isn't really complex. Sona/Udyr/Raka/Sion/Malph aren't complex. They have either point and click abilities, direct abilities, simple abilities and not weird effects that you couldn't understand exactly after trying to play them. Complex champs are champs with a ton of abilities, a billion mobility/skill shot abilities which are all hard to use (Leblanc/Zed) exct.

I like complex champs but do you really think that 100% of league should be skill shots? Doesn't that disproportionately benefit champs like hecarim or fast MS champs?

Cremina2 votes

To be honest from a design perspective I value champions that add something new regardless of their mechanics being simple or complex. A prime example of this would be Vi. She is very straight forward, her passive is quite simple to understand and her Ult some people might say its a no-brainer. However, if you really think carefully about it, her kit (although simple) is quite creative, has a lot of synergy with several champions, her Q is not that hard to pull when it comes to wall jumping (unlike Riven or Nid, who required a bit more practice) and yet she felt truly unique and innovative.

At the end of the day Vi has all these mobility bonuses and even her Q is a skill shot (sort of), yet she still remains simple. So, I do believe Riot will keep releasing new champs with simple kits, its only a matter of the character's designed background and personality inspiring them in that direction (like it did when Vi was created).

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