The state of balance of this game is determined by how healthy the jungle meta is.

KilljoyX·Feb 14, 2016·40 votes·3,258 views

Face it the overall health of the game is determined by the jungle meta. Sure there will always be a few outliers like right now talon and pantheon for lanes but that usually doesn't last more than a patch or two. Where as jungle metas last like a season to almost a season because its more about items and difficulty of jungling.

Everyone loved the cinderhulk meta because despite sej being op as all get out you can just ban sej and then there's a myriad of junglers (25-30 options) who are viable within 1-2% of 50%. No one loved the lee sin meta because getting ganked at 3 minutes and then auto losing lane due to snowballing (Losing 2-4 waves) was boring, toxic and basically meant you got to do very little for 20-30 minutes.

The 2nd worst pre season was also created exclusively by this issue. Feral flare produced the most horrible, depressing, boring meta in league history. Literally the entire game did not matter. It was merely a contest to determine who could get more stacks. Once a Yi hit 70-100 stacks he just couldn't die. Same with udyr, shyv and tons more. The health of this game, the overall happiness of the player, and the enjoyably of the game is tied to the jungle.

62 Comments

ErockandrollFeb 14, 20166 votes

Your second paragraph seems contradictory. Everyone could tolerate the Sej meta because you could ban her. Yet why wouldn't that hold true for the lee sin meta?

If Junglers arn't drawing bans, then their impact on the game must be over stated.

KilljoyXFeb 14, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Your second paragraph seems contradictory. Everyone could tolerate the Sej meta because you could ban her. Yet why wouldn't that hold true for the lee sin meta?

If Junglers arn't drawing bans, then their impact on the game must be over stated.

Because lee sin isn't the only hyper aggressive early jungler, in fact he's not a very good one he's just the most frustrating. You cannot ban enough early junglers to make the game not early game focused. You can only change camps/items so that ganking isn't as good as farming. Where as there were no other tanks who did as much damage as sej. Lee sin is a symptom where as Sej was an outlier.

AnidanFeb 15, 20161 votes

I always thought Shaco was considered the most frustrating, with Lee Sin trailing not far behind

KnoyleFeb 15, 20161 votes

A pink ward will help with Shaco. All the wards in the world will not stop Lee Sin. Not to mention the difference in reach Lee Sin has over Shaco.

SunriseSkaterKidFeb 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I always thought Shaco was considered the most frustrating, with Lee Sin trailing not far behind

but shaco really relies on his first 1-3 ganks working perfectly or else he's just a minion and gets 1 hit.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 15, 20161 votes

Jesus Christ for someone circle jerking about the cinder hulk meta you sure don't seem to know much about it.

"Where as there were no other tanks who did as much damage as sej. "

So now were pretending that Rek'sai and Gragas didn't exist and weren't the other go to junglers whenever sejuani was banned?

Only Play DariusFeb 15, 20165 votes

The jungle is actually probably the best lane right now. Don't get me wrong it's nowhere near as good as it was last season but compared to the other lanes it's fine.

Top lane: Go even as the other lanes snowball. If your team snowballed you get carried so long as you didn't feed. If the enemy team snowballs you lose the game.

Mid: Pick Lux/Corki/AhrI (no I'm not including Zed). If you haven't picked one of those three, proceed to watch as they sit back all game with no incentive to take risks as they will outperform you in mid game teamfights

ADC: Pick Vayne/Ezreal/Kalista. If not playing one of those three, proceed to get killed by Vayne the moment your support leaves, do no damage to Iceborn Exreal, or get kited by Kalista.

Support: Forced to take care of 3 children because your team decided to run a triple ADC comp.

AlwaysByMySideFeb 15, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=slUgdtVt,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-02-15T05:13:02.497+0000)

The jungle is actually probably the best lane right now. Don't get me wrong it's nowhere near as good as it was last season but compared to the other lanes it's fine.

Top lane: Go even as the other lanes snowball. If your team snowballed you get carried so long as you didn't feed. If the enemy team snowballs you lose the game.

Mid: Pick Lux/Corki/AhrI (no I'm not including Zed). If you haven't picked one of those three, proceed to watch as they sit back all game with no incentive to take risks as they will outperform you in mid game teamfights

ADC: Pick Vayne/Ezreal/Kalista. If not playing one of those three, proceed to get killed by Vayne the moment your support leaves, do no damage to Iceborn Exreal, or get kited by Kalista.

Support: Forced to take care of 3 children because your team decided to run a triple ADC comp.

Vayne? Vayne isn't even good right now.

JSTIN8Feb 15, 20161 votes

And for that we can at least recognize Riot has done one thing right.

LeeerzeichenFeb 14, 20163 votes

Cinderhulk meta was the worst meta I've ever experienced. Boring, slow and no mechanical skill. I my favorite meta was/is the assassin meta. The only thing I currently dislike is, that ap-assassins feel a lot weaker than ad-assassins, because most of them got their base damage nerfed and now they just need so many expensive items to feel relevant.

KilljoyXFeb 14, 201624 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk meta was the worst meta I've ever experienced. Boring, slow and no mechanical skill. I my favorite meta was/is the assassin meta. The only thing I currently dislike is, that ap-assassins feel a lot weaker than ad-assassins, because most of them got their base damage nerfed and now they just need so many expensive items to feel relevant.

Lee sin, elise, and khazix take less skill due to free escapes than most tank junglers which require positioning.

Angry MonsterFeb 14, 201612 votes

LEEERZEICHEN wasnt talking about skill though. He wants to blindly run through and kill the enemy cause he thinks, inputing "X sting" is important. Players like him do not understand that leading, and enabling others to fight is another skill and a more health one since it is forcing team work (in a team work game).

LeeerzeichenFeb 14, 20163 votes

So please explain me the difference in skill between "blindly run through and kill the enemy in 3 seconds without having to worry about cc or death" and "blindly run through and kill the enemy in 1 seconds, but has to be carefull". I have currently more mastery points with gragas than with elise, because i play him alot during the tnak meta. I can ensure you that there was little to no teamwork involved, running over the map and solo killing every squishy, while having ~3k-5k hp. Early and Midgame he was almost the same as Elise, but tanky af. The only real thread was to reach lategame (= adc has ie, pd, as-boots, botrk, lw and bt or ga), where the enemy adc could actually kill you.

KilljoyXFeb 14, 20166 votes

{quoted}

So please explain me the difference in skill between "blindly run through and kill the enemy in 3 seconds without having to worry about cc or death" and "blindly run through and kill the enemy in 1 seconds, but has to be carefull". I have currently more mastery points with gragas than with elise, because i play him alot during the tnak meta. I can ensure you that there was little to no teamwork involved, running over the map and solo killing every squishy, while having ~3k-5k hp. Early and Midgame he was almost the same as Elise, but tanky af. The only real thread was to reach lategame (= adc has ie, pd, as-boots, botrk, lw and bt or ga), where the enemy adc could actually kill you.

Because being killed in under 1 second has no real counter play other than getting ahead early and getting lucky on enemy pathing in the first 5 minutes. Getting killed in 3-5 seconds means you need to be very far away from the team and out of position to die. If you die in 1 second "Out of position" is less than melee range from an ally where as 3-5 seconds is the difference between being killed under your first tower before a tower shot goes off and being killed beneath your inner as the jungler comes to punish the over dive.

LeeerzeichenFeb 14, 20161 votes

Thats simply not true. Apart from being immortal during the midgame (chinderhulk meta!), most tanks have more escapes in their kit than Lee sin, Elise or khazix.

Gragas: low cooldown dash in any direction he wants, stong slow on his q and a aoe knockback on his ult Seju: low cooldown dash on her q in any direction she wants, stong slow on her e and a aoe stun on her ult Zac: medium slow on his q, extrem long range jump on his e in any direction he wants, multiple dashes in any direction he wants + knockbacks on his ult, revive passiv

Lee Sin: targeted dash to an enemy with his q, targeted jump to an ally on his w, single target knockback on his ult Elise: short range jump to an enemy on her q (can't even jump over a wall), targeted dash to an enemy with her e on a long cd Khazix: medium/long range jump on his e, short invis.

I'm not considering if they can use a specific skill as escape (Lee Sin goes in with his q --> his q is on cd and can't be used as escape). I think its pretty stupid to say that a role, which should get hit by as much abilities as possible, requires good position in fights.

DroogzyFeb 15, 201630 votes

{quoted}

most tanks have more escapes in their kit than Lee sin

Lol

CavemanteroFeb 15, 201611 votes

{quoted}

Lol

LOLx2

AnidanFeb 15, 201611 votes

He does have a point that some tanks have a good deal of options for escaping what would, for other champions, be likely death.. but he undermined it by giving hyperbole. Gragas and Seju were good examples of that, with Zac being a little more sketchy. As for other tanks... Not really.

KnoyleFeb 15, 20168 votes

Chogath Blitzcrank Rammus Renekton Darius Nasus Braum Volibear Alistar Poppy Any of these you seen ward hop? Cuz I'm pretty sure the only way they are getting out of a really bad fight is with summoner 4 or just moving fast.

Vellich0rFeb 15, 20165 votes

lee: targeted dash that can go over walls if you hit a jungle camp, targeted dash that can go to a ward and has enough range to go over any wall on the map. AoE slow, AoE targeted knock back knockup combo on a massively low cooldown. All with very little to manage in terms of resources.

Sejuani: ONE low-mid range medium cooldown dash that can't even get over many of the walls on SR and a massive cooldown stun that can miss.

Gragas: ONE medium cooldown low mid range dash and a juke able knock back ultimate with a heavily telegraphed skillshot slow.

Zac: ONE channeled interruptible dash on his E that takes a long duration to charge for any decent distance, a skillshot slow, and a massive cooldown ultimate that ISNT a dash (its a move speed boost)

I feel like you are comparing apples to oranges bud.

The Yetii RiderFeb 15, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Thats simply not true. Apart from being immortal during the midgame (chinderhulk meta!), most tanks have more escapes in their kit than Lee sin, Elise or khazix.

Gragas: low cooldown dash in any direction he wants, stong slow on his q and a aoe knockback on his ult Seju: low cooldown dash on her q in any direction she wants, stong slow on her e and a aoe stun on her ult Zac: medium slow on his q, extrem long range jump on his e in any direction he wants, multiple dashes in any direction he wants + knockbacks on his ult, revive passiv

Lee Sin: targeted dash to an enemy with his q, targeted jump to an ally on his w, single target knockback on his ult Elise: short range jump to an enemy on her q (can't even jump over a wall), targeted dash to an enemy with her e on a long cd Khazix: medium/long range jump on his e, short invis.

I'm not considering if they can use a specific skill as escape (Lee Sin goes in with his q --> his q is on cd and can't be used as escape). I think its pretty stupid to say that a role, which should get hit by as much abilities as possible, requires good position in fights.

"Most tanks"

Here are the tank junglers with no escape - Amumu, Warwick, Nunu, Malphite (unless he burns ult, but why is he in the middle of a fight with his ult off CD?), Maokai, Alistar.,

Nautilus was one you didn't mention who does have an escape.

So that's 5 tanks without escapes (I'm not including Ali in the count because I doubt anyone else will) and 4 with. Not most by any stretch.

RalanrFeb 15, 20163 votes

Don't forget Sion . His ult is only an escape if he's got a long and clear path for him.

Mecha MaIphiteFeb 15, 20164 votes

As a tank player, I have to disagree. Malphite, Amumu and (full tank) Jarvan are my picks for jungle, and when I tried to pick up Rengar and Kha, I had a lot of difficulty with them.

Only Play DariusFeb 15, 20162 votes

They don't take less skill. Its just that they can kill you and therefore are more likely to elicit feelings of disgust, altering your view of the champion and causing you to label them unfairly.

Tank junglers require less skill but more luck, as they need their team to not be shitheads. Winning a game as Malphite on a team with bad players is nearly impossible regardless of how good you are. Winning a Malph game on a team with competent and responsive players is as easy as landing a couple of good ults. Assassin junglers may be more capable of carrying bad teammates, but due to low utility they are less likely to get carried themselves by good teammates, and in the cases of bad teams, the burden is instead on them to execute their combos flawlessly, which is especially hard when you are getting focused by the entire enemy team because you are the only one they are worried about.

Stonewall explains it better in his video

RalanrFeb 15, 20163 votes

Which video? I've been watching him and would love to hear this one.

It also makes a lot of sense. I prefer tank junglers, but if my teammates die before I can complete my first clear then it becomes incredibly hard for me. I play tanks to allow my teammates to get the kills that they crave (I'd play support if I could find more supports I actually like). But if they don't have the damage to actually finish an enemy off when I hold them, then we are all royally fucked when the enemy is free.

Only Play DariusFeb 15, 20161 votes

Look for a video called "champs that take no skill"

If only it was required to watch that video before making a post about champion skill and difficulty, maybe the boards would be a better place

RalanrFeb 15, 20162 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itVTcUztFMU

6:20 when he starts talking about how the champions make people butthurt explains most of the posts in the board.

I lost against a Fizz recently (or rather, he was on the enemy team) and I'm stupid pissed at that. I felt incredibly useless as a tank due to his troll poll and Nocturne 's fear in teamfights. I'm pissed.

But that doesn't mean I'm right to say they don't take skill or are OP.

Only Play DariusFeb 15, 20162 votes

Exactly, I feel the same way about Zed. His sole purpose is to kill you, most games if he has killed you several times in lane that's just him doing his job. Unfortunately this makes many players feel like chumps and understandably frustrates them, but its not right to cry that he needs nerfs because all you saw was his strengths and let the salt flow without attempting to analyze his weaknesses. His utility is nonexistent, he has one shot to get it perfect in teamfights, and as far as assassins are concerned, he has far and away the most counterable burst.

I hate repeatedly dying to Zed in lane, but more often than not I take back control in mid game and by late game my teammates are locking him down and preventing him from doing any major damage. Keeping a cool head instead of giving up against the "OPFOTM" champions works wonders.

Chaotic ReksFeb 15, 20161 votes

khazix less skill due to free escapes

ahahahahahahahahahah

You do know that kha takes some skill at positioning and timing right? Also it's not a "free escape", he has to dunk someone to get out.

KilljoyXFeb 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=slUgdtVt,comment-id=000100000004,timestamp=2016-02-15T14:19:19.520+0000)

less skill due to free escapes

ahahahahahahahahahah

You do know that kha takes some skill at positioning and timing right? Also it's not a "free escape", he has to dunk someone to get out.

You don't have to dunk anyone you just hang out around the edge of a fight and steal kills to become huge. I've got 100+ ranked games on kha and I assure you he's much easier to play than sej, gragas, and rammus.

AlwaysByMySideFeb 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You don't have to dunk anyone you just hang out around the edge of a fight and steal kills to become huge. I've got 100+ ranked games on kha and I assure you he's much easier to play than sej, gragas, and rammus.

No he's not (other than Gragas, who has a deceptively high skillcap).

Sejuani and Rammus are baby easy to play, like most tanks.

Chaotic ReksFeb 16, 20161 votes

You don't have to dunk anyone you just hang out around the edge of a fight and steal kills to become huge. I've got 100+ ranked games on kha and I assure you he's much easier to play than sej, gragas, and rammus.

While this may be true, your profile shows that you've barely touched Kha since Season 4 where he was super strong compared to now. He may have been easy then when he was strong, but he's more difficult now compared to before.

KilljoyXFeb 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=slUgdtVt,comment-id=00010000000400000001,timestamp=2016-02-16T15:02:57.949+0000)

While this may be true, your profile shows that you've barely touched Kha since Season 4 where he was super strong compared to now. He may have been easy then when he was strong, but he's more difficult now compared to before.

There is a difference between more difficult and worse. He has not received a rework other than the ult reducing damage followed by it not reducing damage. The champion is 100% exactly the same, with worse damage. That doesn't make him harder to play it makes him worse.

KilljoyXFeb 15, 20163 votes

Honestly it shocks me that people think tanks are mobile. I assume they are assassin players.

Papa SlothyFeb 15, 20162 votes

I agree that a lot of league's problems stem from jungle updates and items but the entire balance isn't dependent on junglers

GunpointFeb 15, 20162 votes

It's always the lee sin meta.

Emperor TimeFeb 14, 20161 votes

Idk who you where talking about, but I hated the tank meta. Tanks are so boring to play. Except Gragas, he's the only tank jungler I enjoy, but I feel as though he's still kind of weak this patch compared to other junglers.

CavemanteroFeb 15, 20169 votes

The tank meta is the best because it actually requires teamwork and has many more tactical and strategic options. Show me people who like assassin play and I'll show you guys who, for the most part, don't give a damn about team work or objectives or the nuances of the game...they just want an alternative to Call of Duty.

For the most part, they don't care about how many kills the adc has or in what position they're in, they just want to blow people up without any repercussions and stroke their tools afterwards. I mean, grinding out a team fight over 10-15 seconds as opposed to terrible terrible damage over 3-7 seconds IS actually funner for both sides. But no, lets just sit in base dead for 15 minutes/40 minute snowball game instead... DrMundo

Emperor TimeFeb 15, 20161 votes

I just want to solo carry the game, I dislike having to rely on teammates to do damage.

captainkaigerFeb 15, 20167 votes

Thus you will never be able to play jungle well, or ever support. As a jungle/support main, understanding that you influence the game in a large way while getting none of the credit you deserve is the biggest thing. Certainly there are outlier's to this being Lee Sin as the poster-child, but generally supports and junglers are more calm/ tactically thinking.

Emperor TimeFeb 15, 20161 votes

I think I play jungle fairly well m8, check that match history :). By the way you can carry games super hard as a jungler, idk who tought you that jungle is the bitch boy role, but it isn't. Giving kills to low elo players just so they can throw their lead is the dumbest shit you can do. If you wanna climb you gotta carry the baddies :). By the way I'm plat elo so I think i'm doing pretty well in the jungle, a lot better than being in bronze ;).

ObericFeb 15, 20165 votes

If you have anyone on your team, they're roughly the same elo as you. Refusing to let them get any kills because you think you're better than them is going to lose you more games than you'll win, in the long run.

Emperor TimeFeb 15, 20161 votes

I don't think I'm better than them at all, I just think, why would I let the game be controlled by my team mates when I could be in control. Yea sometimes you get carried and that's fine, but wanting to carry a game isn't wrong either. This is just a preference in playstyle, I prefer the agressive early/ late game hyper carry playstyles. I personally find tanks boring to play. That doesn't mean tanks are by any means bad, it's just my opinion and telling someone their playstyle is wrong when a lot of high tier junglers play to try to carry is just wrong as well. This is why Junglers like Elise, Xin Zhao, Master Yi, and Nidalee are top picks in plat+, because people want to carry the game through their early game damage/ Late game hyperscaling.

captainkaigerFeb 15, 20163 votes

Yeah, see, again you're wrong. Giving kills to your teammates is what you're supposed to do.

And if you looked at my profile to see that I'm bronze than you should know that A) I'm currently in the process of climbing out because B) I've won 9 out of 12 games. While that isn't too impressive on it's own, keep in mind I'm in Bronze working up and out, anything can happen to change that.

Sightless66Feb 15, 20162 votes

Giving kills to your teammates is what you're supposed to do.

Not really. There are plenty of junglers that function primarily by getting themselves fed. This isn't some rare outlier in how junglers function. It's a major goal for a large number of junglers.

In fact, even for junglers who aren't based around snowballing themselves, it's still very often the best decision to take actions only devoted to making yourself stronger (for example, tanks like Sejuani and Amumu benefit heavily from ganking a lane that their teammate is already winning so that they can siphon some of the gold and experience. You'll see top-level junglers doing this all the time.

Statements like "Giving kills to your teammates is what you're supposed to do." and "understanding that you influence the game in a large way while getting none of the credit you deserve is the biggest thing" just aren't correct. They're way too restrictive. There is a large amount of extremely good jungle play that completely and utterly ignores both of these statements. Using these as rules that junglers have to follow is wrong.

captainkaigerFeb 15, 20162 votes

I was using that as a broad statement. Yes, I know that a jungler also needs kills and gold and experience, but I don't gank lanes thinking "Let's do this for MY benefit." If I get the kill, great, got more money than I thought I would, whatever. My main goal is to help out each lane as much as possible, and the fact that I get a good deal of gold and experience from doing it is in my eyes an added benefit of doing that.

Sightless66Feb 15, 20162 votes

I was using that as a broad statement.

I know, and it's incorrect. The idea that junglers work best when ganking primarily to make their lanes stronger is too restrictive. There are great strategies which are completely contrary to that.

I don't gank lanes thinking "Let's do this for MY benefit.

You totally could though, and many of the best junglers do. Ganking lanes only with the goal of making yourself stronger is a very effective jungling tactic. You may not personally take this approach (and just to be clear, your approach is also perfectly fine), but it absolutely is not a worse way of jungling.

Emperor TimeFeb 15, 20161 votes

+1 you get me.

AnidanFeb 15, 20161 votes

I prefer assassin play, but that doesn't mean I ignored objectives or nuanced gameplay. Don't lump everyone into the 'mindless' category just because they don't agree with your preferred playstyle.

BluePolarizerFeb 15, 20163 votes

The tank meta had multiple non-tank jungle champs that were amazing because you had time and the extra jungle gold needed to scale.

That was because the champs were really differentiated from each other. Tanks had a weak early clear so if you cleared better than them early, you could easily outfarm them and just outdo them with numbers.

For instance, during the tank meta I believe Eve had a historically high win rate because she could gank multiple lanes while the tanks were still clearing and had %HP to nuke them late game.