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Do you feel like posting here is pointless?

SorasMemories··106 votes·14,616 views

I'm constantly checking the boards, upvoting good threads, and posting my own; yet, the problems that we have been experiencing for months are not changing. Over powered champions still dominate lane, massive bugs still go unnoticed, older champions are forever ignored... But, as long as we get more skins and new champions, right...? :/

118 Comments

InsaneSamurai19 votes

95% of the time, yes. There are too many people who roam the forums and downvote the hell out of anything that doesn't fit their exact view on things, and too many who come here with the sole intention of starting arguments and/or trolling people. There's no way Riot can actually read all the reasonable feedback in the middle of all that madness, and since this is the primary form of feedback, I'd imagine a staggering amount of useful posts get washed down the drain every day.

Slushi Simcambi12 votes

They have themselves to blame for creating this crappy reddit format...

It really doesn't lend itself well to constructive discussion.

RiotRiot Fairy Flan19 votes

I hear you, and can see why you feel discouraged to keep posting here :x I can at least assure you that we meticulously read the boards and we use a lot of threads internally (in meetings and discussions) as points of feedback from the community. It's really invaluable! A lot of fixes are not easy and take a lot of backend work to iron out, thank you for continuing to be patient during the process ><

As for me, I will make it a point to start posting more on the boards for you guys. It's a little scary sometimes though! ; u ;

Dr Clueless PhD16 votes

Be careful. The more you post, the more people are going to ask you to do things you're not qualified for or even remotely connected to ("Fix the servers!" "Nerf Lee Sin!"), and they will express a lot of anger towards you for not being the person they want to be posting with. That anger will grind you down into phasing back out if you let it get to you. It's like, why deal with people that can't get it through their heads how jobs work? You have to accept that people are stupid, and this game attracts a LOT of people.

RiotRiot Fairy Flan13 votes

Yeah, that's a lot of what personally makes me sad/scared to post :x

ChimeiTekinaNasu2 votes

but. at least there are a few that aren't like that =P

Daen8 votes

Thanks for chatting with us, NurseFlan. I wanted to address a few things; this isn't necessarily reflected at you, but it's a sentiment I see in a lot of Rioter posts on the Boards.

There will always be a minority of people that are angry or complaining about something, and this is an unfortunate truth of the internet. That being said, the idea that it's scary to communicate with the community is really concerning. I understand the minority is difficult to deal with, but avoiding that minority avoids the vast majority of the community not being that way.

Something we all seem to be forgetting here: The community's gut negative response is almost always directly correlated to a previous or perpetuating lack of communication on a given topic. One of the big reasons Rioters can end up getting eaten alive by the community, in my opinion, is that people are just trying to be heard and thus dumping everything they care about onto the poor Rioter that has ventured out into the forest.

People naturally take the past of least resistance/greatest reward and appeal to the highest relatable authority. If a Rioter that works primarily as a NOC Technician has a chat with the community and no other Rioters are perceived to be around, that NOC Technician is going to be swarmed with requests that he or she is unable to answer. The only perceivable authority in this scenario is the NOC Technician, so there is nowhere else for the community to go with their comments.


People aren't intentionally deciding that you (or any Rioter) should know the answers to all their questions; they are taking the path of perceived least resistance to try to feel heard. No one wants to go out of their way just to talk to the clearly wrong person (unless they can't follow basic logic), it's just not efficient. If there's a clear way to directly appeal to the person to which a concern should be directed, that is the most optimal choice.

RiotRiot Fairy Flan8 votes

There will always be a minority of people that are angry or complaining about something, and this is an unfortunate truth of the internet.

We definitely keep that in mind! The unfortunate thing is the fact that that minority is the outspoken majority. Rioters are human beings and have feelings too, for me it really wears me down and gets me sad

...people are just trying to be heard and thus dumping everything they care about onto the poor Rioter that has ventured out into the forest.

Sometimes it feels like I'm a little hobbit running into Fanghorn Forest! :O

Dr Easter2 votes

Well.... players are human beings too and sometimes we run out of patience. Like.. the Dominion community that is been ignored since the mode was released and now the situation got to a so bad point that people aren't coming or coming back due to the lack of your support and you guys won't support it because people left... Old Dominion forums was so much fun.. Riot made a lot of great people leave this game.

Remlap12237 votes

As someone who has gotten Red replies on multiple threads beforehand, I must say that it has gotten a bit... dry over the last couple months. That's the problem, you could tell us off in all these threads if you wanted to, and half of the forum goers would kiss the ground you walk on because you actually read and replied to the thread. We just want transparency, and with all of the stuff that you guys do on this website, I don't think that's too much to ask.

RiotRiot Fairy Flan5 votes

Sure, we can work on that :) Transparency can be a little tricky though - I can't reveal what skins we're working on and when they'll come out...but I caaaaaann tell you we're working on skins in general, haha >:]

ExecutorDill1 votes

{quoted}

Sure, we can work on that :) Transparency can be a little tricky though - I can't reveal what skins we're working on and when they'll come out...but I caaaaaann tell you we're working on skins in general, haha >:]

Work on what?

RiotRiot Fairy Flan5 votes

Some transparency and telling people off, ohoho

Daen3 votes

To be honest, a lot of the transparency requests I see are not asking for specific feature clarity. A huge amount of the ones I notice are generally the following:

  • High level direction of game design - Plans for the jungle, itemization, bruiser rework
  • Communication goals - Methods of communication, mediums, platforms
  • Design philosophy for different features - Goal for Honor, Team Builder plans, Lore changes
  • Plans for previously announced projects - Ranked system improvements, Replays, alternative map support

The community, overall, doesn't generally ask a ton of questions about the specific new projects being worked on (what skin is next, for example). Questions are more along the lines of discussing currently existing content, improvements to currently existing content, and high level direction.

For example, what is the goal for skins over the new year? Is the intent to stay with less frequent but higher quality releases over the year, and are any other cool things coming out of that team?

RiotRiot Fairy Flan2 votes

Is the intent to stay with less frequent but higher quality releases over the year, and are any other cool things coming out of that team?

Our goal hasn't been to "create the most amount of skins possible in a year." I'd say our aim is to "create as many interesting and high-quality skins we, as a team, are capable of creating without skimping on the awesome cool stuff."

And yes, there are cool things coming out of this team. But that's about all I can divulge! Questions like that are a bit tricky!

L7xLoTek2 votes

Quality has really been going up lately, so good job on that. Only problem is it makes the older stuff feel kinda lackluster ^^;;

Remlap12233 votes

Not just with skins, i have 100% faith on your skin making awesomeness, I've yet to see another ARTS do it better than Riot, but in terms of balance, well, with the whole #betternerfsonagoing around, we'd like a little more transparency on balancing. In terms of transparency, we'd also like you to listen to us on balance issues, because some of us have some good ideas (the keyword being some.)

RiotRiot Fairy Flan3 votes

I'm on the Skins team so I can't really speak upon any balance changes, but from what I know she had a pretty high winrate :)

PaperMache71 votes

Well here's something you might be able to answer. Was the concept of buying (or something similar) skins made by the community ever seriously considered. If yes, why was the idea rejected and if it wasn't why hasn't it been yet (there's a few high quality ones out there).

RiotRiot Fairy Flan1 votes

We have had many community-inspired skins made :) Astronautilus, Surprise Party Fiddlesticks, Bunnygirl Riven, Popstar Ahri to name a few :)

It's unrealistic to do all community skins, but the concept artists do love what the community creates!

ChimeiTekinaNasu1 votes

Then you must do Harrowing Nami for 2015 Harrowing D= http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/365/c/7/ghost_nami_by_sterces7-d7083ke.png Ghost Nami

Flying Buntcake1 votes

They already gave her the river spirit skin though. Too bad, I really like your idea

ChimeiTekinaNasu2 votes

Well, we just had Popstar Ahri and now we're getting Challenger Ahri. So it could still happen. Even Riot KateyKhaos liked it when I showed her that a few months ago. Let's hope it happens. =P

Fluppets5 votes

How about a** feature **that automatically says "Seen on 11/05/2014 by RiotDuderino" when a Riot employee reads a post?

It is impossible for every Rioter to read, let alone reply to every post. But it would be cool if there is some way for us to tell it's being read. Of course, you cheeky bastards could cheat that way, just randomly tagging a post with "read by Riot" :p

or alternatively a "Riot Upvote", aside from a red post itself Reds could flag/upvote a post or thread. It would be a way of saying "RiotDuderino aproves" or just to point out a good point somebody made that's being overlooked.

Personally I only reply to like 5% of the posts/threads I read, I can imagine that number being even lower for a Riot employee, who has work to do and is under alot of scrutiny.

Basically features for Riot Employees to quickly and easily mark their presence on the boards, without having to get down and dirty.

RiotRiot Fairy Flan10 votes

Ooo, y'know I do like the sound of the "Seen by Riot" feature! I have a concern with that feature though:

  • How do we message that the "Seen by Riot" tags do not mean it is something we are able to act upon? (example) URGOT IS OP, NERF HIM - Seen on 01/09/2045 by RiotDuderino

I fear the thread will shift to "Omg Riot read this post, it's gonna happen!"

This could just be my overly-paranoid self speaking though. I do like the idea of making it easier for a Rioter to acknowledge an idea!

Shinjusuke4 votes

I think a lot of the issue stems from the the friendly Rioters, like you, taking the time to talk to us on stuff that you're able to talk about, but the issues those people are able to talk about haven't been the issues players need Riot to talk about.

Someone already brought up the whole "People start shouting 'Nerf Lee Sin! Fix the Servers!'" at you, and it's not your area of expertise. But the people whose area of expertise it does belong to do not engage in legitimate discussion with the players these days.

Phreak is the closest thing we've gotten to balance discussion in ages, and he's not on the balance team any more, he's a shout-caster instead, and even he left the last thread once the discussion went into more depth than his "Win rate = balance" defense (shortened version, no disrespect meant).

We finally after ages got some insight into the server roadmap, and that was great! I'm sure a lot of people were glad to see the discussion come up.

The point is that the Rioters who will talk don't work on the issues that are infuriating the playerbase and need talked about and fixed. The ones who do work on the issues, however, insist on either completely ignoring the community, or writing off anything they say as "nah, I work at Riot so my opinion > your logic" and hop out of threads after a few short posts.

I'm well aware the community is full of anger sometimes, and much of it is unfair anger, but the frustration is certainly reasonable. I think many of us are just tired of the same balance issues, and the people responsible plugging their ears and shouting "LALALALA" and running out of a thread the second they see an argument that more strongly supports a claim against what the people responsible say is the case.

If you don't work work in Balance, Design, or Systems, I can (almost) promise you that you have nothing to fear because the issues that NEED talked about are all in Balance, Design, and Systems. But those people don't come talk about them. As long as you're working on skins, chances are nobody (at least nobody who knows you work in skins, anyway) is going to rage at you, because everyone is happy with the skins (I think? I know I am, though I'm still waiting for my Dragonmaster Swain and Jurassic Kha'zix -sad face-). The topics people aren't happy with are the ones that are vital to a healthy game state and balanced upcoming ranked season, yet the Rioters who could speak with us about them won't do it either out of fear or spite or just plain apathy.

You know we went through almost an entire preseason (y'know, the thing where sweeping balance changes can be made to adjust for the upcoming ranked season?) without Rioters coming to discuss major balance/design issues? Like, at least Warwick got noticed, thank god, but I think a blind person who doesn't even play League would've noticed Warwick was broken. Anything less obvious than that got no discussion, and that's why people are mad. Sure, we may get a post here or there, but I'm talking about real discussion and debate over balance and design issues, that extends beyond reds coming in and saying "Nah, what I say is fact, your information is irrelevant, peace I'm out betches".

We usually hear the "sorry, those guys are just working too hard to post" (which, and I'm well aware I don't work there, but I think is a super lame excuse and probably an unfair one after a whole preseason), or the "we read your threads! We value your input!... as long as it's in line with what we believe" responses. Suffice to say, that's not.. uh.. ideal... And I think the community just sort of gets forced to bottle up a bunch of rage because we know these things are important, because we're playing the game and are affected by them regularly.

Daen4 votes

Great post. The following quote in particular:

the issues those people are able to talk about haven't been the issues players need Riot to talk about.

I can't agree more. I will say, however, that it's not just Balance, Design, and Systems that are the major pain points. A lot of the auxiliary features are struggling in communication too, everything from the Tribunal and Honor to replays and chat rooms.

Shinjusuke1 votes

Agreed, those are super important topics too, I just left them out because (if you don't mind me copying myself a bit) despite the topics being just as important, during preseason there should have been a ton of discussion about balance, game systems, and design, because preseason is when sweeping changes can be made to those things, and there was almost no discussion instead.

That doesn't make the other auxiliary features and lack of communication less important issues of course.

RiotRiot Fairy Flan4 votes

I dunno which post to leave this on, lol, but I found a recent Friday Night Red Q&A for champ reworks :) Hopefully you get some of your "need to know" questions answered! :D

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cAWiGbL3-friday-night-red-qa-todays-topic-championupdate-design

TRYIN' TO BE #HELPFUL

Shinjusuke2 votes

Poor NurseFlan :( #RiotNurseFlanIsHelpful2015

Jeddy0174 votes

There's also communication issues with the narrative team as well.

Shinjusuke2 votes

You're right; Sorry I left them out. I actually made a huge thread about the lore rework months ago that still gets posted in very frequently, so I understand the narrative team frustrations.

I just didn't consider narrative's absence to be something that was extra frustrating during preseason like balance/design/systems is, that's all. That doesn't make their absence or lore issues any less important, I'm just saying that there should have been a ton more communication from the other 3 seeing as it's preseason.

Jeddy0172 votes

Understandable,the lore isn't as important as things you experiences in every match of League of Legends,so it don't affect the playerbase as much as lag or Fizz.I'm sure there is a large percentage of players who don't care about the lore or know it.

Shinjusuke2 votes

I'm sure there is a large percentage of players who don't care about the lore or know it.

The truth of this is super depressing :(

RiotRiot Fairy Flan6 votes

Ah, people do rage about skins though - especially since it's one of the major things people acutally spend their money on (or if it's about their league waifu Ahri, hehe). That kind of feedback is usually found on the PBE boards since they have a chance to affect how a skin looks at that point, and on sites like Surrender@20.

Please also keep in mind that the ratio of of Rioters to Community members is super large, so it's hard to address everything o n o

Does the patch notes page help with at least understanding some of the bug fixes/balance changes with champions? http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-421-notes

TerraRising2 votes

{quoted}

Ah, people do rage about skins though - especially since it's one of the major things people acutally spend their money on (or if it's about their league waifu Ahri, hehe). That kind of feedback is usually found on the PBE boards since they have a chance to affect how a skin looks at that point, and on sites like Surrender@20.

Please also keep in mind that the ratio of of Rioters to Community members is super large, so it's hard to address everything o n o

Does the patch notes page help with at least understanding some of the bug fixes/balance changes with champions? http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-421-notes

The problem isn't the patch notes: It's the raw PBE changesthat are released when a cycle starts/restarts. I hesitate to go into further details given your relationship with one of these websites, but there's little chance for Riot context when a new cycle begins, such as when Cassiopeia became "CassiUPeia."

Players see in these notes that Sona lost five points to her MS and they get upset and it takes a Rioter to go on reddit or these boards to explain the changes, when they bother at all (see Amumu's expanded lore for a Riot department not bothering to explain the new story).

No idea what the solution would be, though.

Shinjusuke1 votes

Fair enough, I didn't mean to imply you don't face your own complaints on the skins team, sorry :(

As for balancing, that's a huge part of the problem: The patch notes after the changes happen is all we get, since anytime PBE changes are brought up they get written off as "well it's PBE so not confirmed yet". Furthermore, the mentality there seems to be that the community just "doesn't understand" balance changes that do/don't happen, and that we just need enlightened to Riot's superior way of thinking, which is.. well, arrogant as all-get-out. We "understand" just fine, but sometimes we disagree, and as you pointed out, the ratio of community-to-rioters is super huge.

We play the game a crapload more than you guys ever could, there are literally millions of user experience cases versus what a single Rioter knows. Many of us are higher ranked than you guys, many of us have very thorough understandings of game balance and design, and many of us have given very thorough and reasoned arguments for balancing (with of course plenty of one-line "Nerf X OP" threads too, but..), and yet the Rioters on the teams who could actually join these discussions and debate the topic either don't, or end up leaving the thread with a "I'm right you're wrong bye"-like post once it becomes apparent that maybe balance is doing something wrong. I mean, hell, literally the highest ranked players in the game frequently vocalize problems with design and balance changes that are in line with major community arguments and we're still ignored.

I have to reiterate this one thing though: Believe it or not, it is possible that we all "understand" the decisions Riot makes damn well fine, sometimes we just think the decisions are wrong and have a ton more user experiences and arguments opposing those decisions, and in some cases have been presenting these arguments for exceedingly long periods of time without response.

The attitude seems to be, consciously or subconsciously, that you guys are just plain smarter and better than anyone in community when it comes to design and balance 100% of the time just because "Riot" is in front of your name, which honestly is naive as hell. Most of us "understand" balance changes just fine, we just have strong/stronger arguments against the changes being made and feel like we're being given the finger when they're ignored or a Rioter leaves a balance thread the second the thread doesn't agree with what they're saying (aka plug your ears and shout "LALALALALAALA"). I'm not saying "balance/design by vote" is a good idea, I'm saying the assumption that you guys know better than us literally 100% of the time is kinda bullshit.

I want to seriously stress I'm not personally attacking anyone, especially you NurseFlan since it's not even your subject, I'm just conveying what the situation looks and feels like to myself, who has been playing since forever, and I'm assuming many others. If it's not the message those teams are trying to send, then things need to change, cuz it's definitely the message being sent.

RiotRiot Fairy Flan6 votes

I hear you, and I definitely appreciate that you took the time to write well thought-out responses (I can definitely get a sense of your frustrations through it too).

Gosh darnit, my message got clipped! I thought it was a nice one too...

TLDR: It's never the intention for a Rioter to make themselves seem superior to the players, because heck we're players too! I'm sorry that I don't have all the answers, but I hope I was able to help by listening and to let you know that my team advocates for the Community all the time :x

MrBuffington2 votes

I fear the thread will shift to "Omg Riot read this post, it's gonna happen!"

Either that or "OMG Rito red my post, y they no respond? Rito is ignoring their community again #clarity #narrative team #better nerf irelia "

BADxW0LF2 votes

As Rioters, I'm sure you have certain privileges/permissions on these boards. So, how bout when a certain Rioter reads a bug/skin concept/etc a checkbox will be available for a Rioter to note that they have seen it and are working on it (or it has been added to the list of ideas/projects). Saves the confusion

BADxW0LF2 votes

It would be nice to have any bugs acknowledged. I've posted quite a few bugs and they go without any Riot comment. I have no idea if you've seen it or done anything with it. I don't care how long it takes to get fixed, just acknowledge that I did your QA work for you and let it be known that is in some sort of list of getting fixed.

Xonra2 votes

{quoted}

I hear you, and can see why you feel discouraged to keep posting here :x I can at least assure you that we meticulously read the boards and we use a lot of threads internally (in meetings and discussions) as points of feedback from the community. It's really invaluable! A lot of fixes are not easy and take a lot of backend work to iron out, thank you for continuing to be patient during the process ><

As for me, I will make it a point to start posting more on the boards for you guys. It's a little scary sometimes though! ; u ;

Yeah, it's even scary for us sometimes. This place can get pretty trolly and ragey. Needs a touch more moderation and some more Red attention and I think that would quickly fix itself though.

lDontLiftIcarry16 votes

we're not reddit. Therefor we don't circle jerk enough to get noticed once a day etc.

Essorance4 votes

{quoted}

we're not reddit. Therefor we don't circle jerk enough to get noticed once a day etc.

I thought the entire purpose of someone like me, who liked the forums and who doesn't use reddit, to be forced into a reddit style board was so that finally I could give and receive feedback.

Well so much for that...

SomeAsianDude6 votes

They can't fix everything instantly just check websites like Surrender@20 or something for PBE updates. The nerfs and bug fixes that you might've seen on the forums may have been fixed and on PBE.

Remlap122325 votes

Absolutely. Sona was OP as shit and Riot fixed her.

#betternerfsona

Demonsolder212 votes

LOL!

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

That's harsh... I have to get my Kleenex "LOL" Tissues out of my drawer... Damm I was saving those for another day.

Remlap12232 votes

Yeah I remember getting my "LoL" Kleenex out for Sona for a completely different reason. Now it's to dab my tears that they're constantly nerfing her.

Poshriel9 votes

Hopefully it's not the same sheet of Kleenex.

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