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An Open Letter to the Riot. With Pictures!

Silverling··240 votes·20,630 views

http://i.imgur.com/Q2dTPa5.jpg

I'm Silver and I have been a forum lurker for probably around five years now. I started off spending most of my time in the magical land known as General Discussion, then over time switched to the Lore forums when those opened up, and nowadays I spend most of my time in that estranged land known as "Roleplaying".

http://i.imgur.com/4B4JGF1.jpg

I understand the negative connotations that come with those that come from this land, but I am not here to stir up trouble or name names, or whatever one might think some one of my kind might do. I am here to discuss the recent revelation as to what you, the Riot Boards team(and some parts to Riot in general), have decided what you believe is best for the fate of the forums.

Though there is one thing I wish to make clear before I begin...

http://i.imgur.com/6xtf7KV.jpg

Riot, my friend, I have been with you since those fantastical times of Beta, and I have to say it has been an adventure! Over the many years you have existed I have created fond memories and friends. I remember the days when you could get close to 80% dodge on Jax(and did play him frequently), when you could gain both blue and red buff at the same time as jungle Shaco, and who could forget at how awful Twisted Treeline used to be?

Ahh yes... Those were great times, but the world of League of Legends has changed greatly over the years. Some of these were for the better, and others? Not so much. And while I still hold a special place in my heart with you, I can't help but feel that there is a growing gap between us, a disconnect that has been progressively building up over the years.

http://i.imgur.com/rBQzbjf.jpg

You see, Riot, there was once a time when I could smile and happily say "I like this game! Its got cool characters and the team that makes it listens to the community!" But now? I can't honestly say this to people. Some of the changes you have made in the past year and a half are ones that, from what I have seen, left a rather sour taste in the mouths of the community... And despite the many complaints from them, you went ahead with the changes anyways.

http://i.imgur.com/Cduc4BY.jpg

But I suppose it makes sense. Back when you first started, you were a small, independent company. You needed to do more in order to please your players, you had to give them a reason as to why they would want to chose this game over the other MOBAs that were popping up out there. And now that you are now technically on the top of the ladder? You don't have to try so much. A loss here, a loss there, it doesn't matter. You still have hundreds upon thousands other players willing to give their fair share to you. After all, you have a vision for the game and those who play it won't understand it all just yet...

http://i.imgur.com/VXetyWq.jpg

Unfortunately, this behavior is only going to hurt you in the long run. Continuing to ignore the pleas of your community will only cause them to grow weary of you. Those one or two unsatisfied players will turn into several thousand who are leaving to brighter shores located within other games, and you will be left within the darkness wondering where within your lifetime you went wrong.

You will likely say to me "But Silver! We are not guilty of this! We always take our players into consideration!" but that would be a flat out lie from your part. The biggest and most recent change that has occurred despite the community outburst would be... The great Forum migration. At gunpoint.

http://i.imgur.com/7Bu6Ici.jpg

I cannot think of a person who legitimately wanted the Reddit style layout of the boards. I, myself, did not want the Reddit style layout. Why? Because if I wanted to go to LoL themed Reddit, I would have gone to the LoL reddit subboard. I can understand wanting to write up a new build for the old forums due to how outdated the coding was for it, but there were better formats that you could have done, ones that the community liked better, ones that they didn't complain about as much. But despite the community outrage, you did it anyways. You forced the change, shut down the old, more preferred boards, and forced everyone to come here. After all, if they don't have a choice but to move, then where else would they go?

http://i.imgur.com/NWIusnJ.jpg

And now? You desire to create a change in the forums that is largely disliked once again. You made a post stating that you want to show more forum activity(Surprise? Activity drop due to an unwanted change) and then state the merging of topics and dissolving one of the larger subsections of the boards.... Then promptly acting like we are supposed to like this change?

http://i.imgur.com/FPspHOh.jpg

Naturally, this is being received with negativity, and yet from what I can see? Its going in the same direction as the Great Forum Migration. Mass complaints, followed by mass ignoring, then followed by more unwanted change, which causes more dissatisfied players. Its understanding that you want to alter the way the forums are organized, but there are so many better ways to go about this, ways that would be far more satisfying to us as a community.

Riot... Dear Riot, you are slowly but surely destroying your own community through poor decisions and tactics, and we, the community, are trying so hard to reach out to you.

http://i.imgur.com/Z2VgyW6.jpg

And yet... Its becoming increasingly obvious that you simply do not care anymore.

http://i.imgur.com/9jDEB7G.jpg

....

Quite frankly, Riot? I'm not even sure if anything I draw or say will even reach you, or even if you will listen anymore. But if there is something that you will take from this? Please let it be this:

  • There is nothing wrong with taking good advice from your players and fans and integrating it within your system.

  • And there is nothing wrong with you recognizing the mistakes you have made in the past and trying your best to fix them.

Riot, I want to like you, and I want to continue to have faith in you... But I'm finding it increasingly hard to hold onto that faith based on your most recent actions. What you do at this point in the end is your choice, and your choice alone, but the consequences that come with that, whether good or bad, depends on how much you plan to listen to us.

Whether you do or do not in the end... Remember that we, as a community, have it within our best interest to help. Most of the time.

  • Silverling

211 Comments

FilFire42 votes

Really? I thought both of those just gave her brownie points.

Anyway, yeah, this post pretty much sums it up. I've only been here for three years or so, so I do not possess the same level of history as missus I-can-draw-whatever-I-want up there, but I'm still starting to see a pattern.

Riot employees always go on about how they take everything into consideration, and how they want to work together with the community.

But quite honestly they're starting to give the impression that they purely say that because if they were honest about what they think of our opinion we could just take what they say and show it to everybody to show them that Riot, after being a rather social company, does no longer care. They've got the playerbase, they've got the income. They can do whatever they want, because no matter how many people complain, there are still lots of players who don't even realize something is wrong and who keep playing, and keep giving Riot their money.

The perfect gamer for Riot these days is one who only pays attention to the game itself. That way they don't have to fake being interested in the gamer's opinion while they just do what they want.

I mean, even the board transition did not receive the sheer amount of resistance that this idea of merging all fora is receiving. I swear that I have yet to see a single person who was not employed by Riot Games who liked it. Every single comment on it has been negative.

Cupkek12 votes

Exact same thing was done by Jagex Ltd. after RuneScape got big enough. These are symptoms of when a company gets big enough and expands.

They don't communicate with their player base and ignore feedback, start spamming out controversial updates, start throwing up pay walls and ultimately disgusting many players to the point where they want to leave.

blueberrypancake3 votes

If they were interested in the game itself they might actually support ADC Kennen and Jungle Galio and stuff like that

Supporting Off-meta stuff and actual strategic diversity.

I'm fine if there is a promotion meta like there was in Beta

It would still be pretty hilarious.

RiotZwill27 votes

Hi Silverling,

First of, thank you for the time and effort you put into this communication. I appreciate and acknowledge your passion for the community and the time it takes to put together well thought out and clear communication.

To give a frame of reference for who I am; I'm the Player Relations Manger for North America. This means that the team I manage has a vested interest in our player to player and player to Rioter communications channels, Boards, reddit, and any other channels we may be developing strategy around.

ADillonMostDirty is a member of the same team. Additionally, we share responsibility for the management of the Boards as a NA Community space with the NA Player Support team (D'Artagnon, WookieeCookie, Keyru), who manage the moderation side of things.

I've been spending hours poring over all of the feedback we've received around our Boards organization post. We read every comment, each and every one, because we need to understand both the intent and the emotion behind these posts. The range of emotions gathered from the posts were varied; anger, fear, outrage, understanding. The one thing that everyone, no matter which camp you're in, should understand is this: All of these responses are valid.

As a member of this community, you have the right, some would say the imperative, to defend that which you hold near and dear to you, and the response to our desire to fundamentally change General Discussion into something different was not unexpected. We knew coming into this conversation that it would be a contentious and difficult one to have, but we feel it's an important discussion to have.

Personally, I want to apologize to you that our actions have made you feel alienated from Riot as a partner in this community. We can give all of the reasons we want to, but at the end of the day, we understand that you, as Players, want a relationship with Rioters that feels personal and intimate, as we had in the earlier days. Even though I only recently joined Riot (around 4 months ago), I share that desire and can assure you that the rest of the team does as well. One of the key "pillars" of the NA Player Relations team is to create more personal relationships between Rioters and the Players. A key example of our early efforts (and it is still very early in the process for a newly formed team) is the introduction of features like Meanwhile in Top Lane... and Between Two Turrets; regular Boards content designed to give insight into our thoughts and what we find interesting and to introduce you to more Rioters as human beings rather than a ubiquitous "Red Name".

Now to the meat of your post, and much of the feedback we've seen following last week's post...

We're in an interesting period for the Boards. The League Community as a whole is changing, maturing and evolving. When a community has been in existence for over five years you face challenges that aren't easy to answer. As the game matures, so does the community and it's needs. We want to be constantly changing and re-examining our preconceived notions about what is healthy for the community, what works, what used to work, and when change, while controversial, is warranted.

Then why fundamentally change a community that's been a part of the League Community since near day one?

There's no easy answer.

"But if Rioters posted in GD more it wouldn't be that way!" I don't disagree with this. The current state of GD is one that many Rioters don't feel safe or welcomed in. We can, and do, encourage Rioters to engage in the Boards all the time, but it's counter to our culture to force anyone to engage somewhere, especially where they're already reluctant to do so. I'm not saying this is the right response, but it's human nature to want to avoid uncomfortable situations. Thus the cycle becomes self fulfilling; Players are angry at Rioters for Rioters not talking to them in their safe space, Rioters experience manifestation of that anger thus causing them to shy away. Not everyone is built like me, able to jump into the proverbial frying pan (and then straight into the fryer ;)).

So why change GD?

Change. As you observed about the change over to the new Boards format, change can be both a constructive and a destructive force. We want to come into any change as informed as we possibly can, but we cannot shy away from a change that may have a very positive outcome, especially when it comes to the health of the Community.

Putting all of our cards on the table: we don't know exactly what will happen if we change GD. Experience with other communities I've been fortunate enough to work with has shown me that this change will benefit the community in the long run, but will result in turmoil in the immediate onset. These immediate pains will result in player discussions that are more focused and relevant to our shared passion of League and gamer culture. Even with that experience, I'm not 100% sure of the outcome, because each community is different.

Right now, emotions are running high. I completely get and empathize with that. Before getting into "the industry" I was the kid outside of the bakery, peering in at the goodies inside, fogging up the window. I will never forget that feeling because it motivates all of my actions. Right now, you may believe that you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what the end result will be. This certainty is fueled by passion, anger and fear that something important to you is being taken away. We understand that and have all felt the same way before. What I'm asking you all to do, just as you are asking us to consider your concerns and reaction, is to do everything you can to step outside of the emotion and consider how this potential change will impact the overall tone of the conversation on the Boards in the long term.

If you've read all the way to here: thank you.

I'm humbled by the outpouring of feedback and emotions as we discuss change and our community. I know it's not easy.

We have a meeting today to discuss the community response and will be following up with our additional thoughts in a new thread soon.

-Andy

Daen3 votes

As always, a very good response.

We can give all of the reasons we want to, but at the end of the day, we understand that you, as Players, want a relationship with Rioters that feels personal and intimate, as we had in the earlier days

To be perfectly honest, this isn't actually what I personally am most passionate about. I may be in the minority, and that's OK, but I want an atmosphere where we don't have this...need to basically impress certain Rioters or have specific, intimate interactions. A huge portion of the communication on this platform is player <-> Riot rather than players really enjoying each other's company and benefiting from it, and personally I think this is a bad thing for us.

I'm interested in tools that allow us to connect to each other as players, rather than ways to connect us to Rioters as Rioters. This can take many forms, of course, but with the fact it's so hard to be an individual on this platform there's really no alternative to "omg Riot talk to me". I'm not saying it's bad to have these personal conversations (far from it), but I feel like overall we're missing the core issue.

As the game matures, so does the community and it's needs. We want to be constantly changing and re-examining our preconceived notions about what is healthy for the community, what works, what used to work, and when change, while controversial, is warranted.

While I appreciate the sentiment, it's hard to get behind it when there hasn't been a single notable change to any social initiatives in at least a year. I know it's not your responsibility to be in development, but it's really difficult for this bond to sustain itself with such stagnation.

Players are angry at Rioters for Rioters not talking to them in their safe space, Rioters experience manifestation of that anger thus causing them to shy away.

Again, I might be a minority here, but I feel like not talking in the safe place is not the core issue; it's not necessarily about the location, it's about the tone. We have had so many instances of Rioters either completely missing the point of a discussion or (seemingly) dodging more controversial topics, it makes it really difficult to have compelling dialogue.

A great example of this is that, in GD, Rioters would occasionally treat the entire community there like rabid animals, treading super carefully to avoid angering the bulls. It's a bit insulting, especially when there's this platform-wide assumption that GD is just a bunch of trolls that need to be split apart.

Change. As you observed about the change over to the new Boards format, change can be both a constructive and a destructive force. We want to come into any change as informed as we possibly can, but we cannot shy away from a change that may have a very positive outcome, especially when it comes to the health of the Community.

From a purely logical/rational perspective, the proposed Boards layout (with the information the community has access to) would essentially break the platform. With fewer boards and the same content volume there needs to be better information accessibility tools, and the proposal did not include any of that.

My point here is, there was a lot of emotion surrounding the information laid out in that thread, but it was also a logical issue. Cold rationalism, in this case, comes to pretty much the same conclusion as emotion; specific topics with less activity cannot feasibly increase in activity if buried within topics with more activity. It's just not possible.

this change will benefit the community in the long run, but will result in turmoil in the immediate onset. These immediate pains will result in player discussions that are more focused and relevant to our shared passion of League and gamer culture.

To use a historical example, I think Riot figured this would be the case for the migration from the old forums to the Boards and it just...wasn't. The transition was extremely messy, and a lot of people still haven't gotten over the fact that it has been difficult to acclimate to the new environment. A lot of this comes down to flawed communication, of course, but it's still worth noting.

SilentNightSona4 votes

{quoted}

Again, I might be a minority here, but I feel like not talking in the safe place is not the core issue; it's not necessarily about the location, it's about the tone. We have had so many instances of Rioters either completely missing the point of a discussion or (seemingly) dodging more controversial topics, it makes it really difficult to have compelling dialogue.

A great example of this is that, in GD, Rioters would occasionally treat the entire community there like rabid animals, treading super carefully to avoid angering the bulls. It's a bit insulting, especially when there's this platform-wide assumption that GD is just a bunch of trolls that need to be split apart.

Before I go, this is so true, and a huge issue. GD'ers don't hate Rioters. Sure we would love more interaction, and we won't always agree with everything you say. And yeah, it's true there are a select few antagonistic posters whose goal is for other people not to be able to have nice things. But certain Rioters have shown time and time that by talking to people as equals, without being hostile towards them, we can all get along perfectly fine. KateyKhaos is a prime example of this. The majority of GD loves her presence there, bar the few trolls who just try to ruin everyone's experience. When WookieeCookie opens a conversation with "You all are a bunch of assholes, we don't want you here, leave this game," he is going to be met with hostility. It's self fulfilling prophecy.

RiotZwill3 votes

I'm interested in tools that allow us to connect to each other as players, rather than ways to connect us to Rioters as Rioters. This can take many forms, of course, but with the fact it's so hard to be an individual on this platform there's really no alternative to "omg Riot talk to me". I'm not saying it's bad to have these personal conversations (far from it), but I feel like overall we're missing the core issue.

As usual, we're simpatico in this Daen.

If you ask the Boards team, they'll tell you that we're constantly pushing them for dates and new features. They're hearing this feedback from the different regional teams and from you folks. Right now we're communicating that some features would be key to the success of changing the format of Boards organization, and they're listening with a receptive ear. Speaking for myself and our team, we won't make promises for the Boards team and put them in a lurch, but they've been very receptive to our feedback and requests.

From a purely logical/rational perspective, the proposed Boards layout (with the information the community has access to) would essentially break the platform. With fewer boards and the same content volume there needs to be better information accessibility tools, and the proposal did not include any of that.

I agree. Without proper features to support this change it would be counter to logic. This is why I'm strongly counseling that we make sure we do everything we can to set us all up for success by rolling changes out with the tools needed to make a new format work.

To use a historical example, I think Riot figured this would be the case for the migration from the old forums to the Boards and it just...wasn't. The transition was extremely messy, and a lot of people still haven't gotten over the fact that it has been difficult to acclimate to the new environment. A lot of this comes down to flawed communication, of course, but it's still worth noting.

While I wasn't here as a Rioter at the time, I was here as a community member. I can't/won't speak to the situation back then since I don't have the full context and understanding of what was going on behind the scenes. Looking to the future, I can promise you is that the NAPR and NAPS teams are committed to being transparent and consistent in our communication around changes to the Boards ecosystem.

Again, I might be a minority here, but I feel like not talking in the safe place is not the core issue; it's not necessarily about the location, it's about the tone. We have had so many instances of Rioters either completely missing the point of a discussion or (seemingly) dodging more controversial topics, it makes it really difficult to have compelling dialogue.

Human nature is a challenging beast. When exposing ourselves to a potentially hostile environment (whether this perception is accurate or not), we tend to be defensive and reactive in our interaction which causes us to miss/misinterpret context. This holds true for most human beings, Rioter or not :p.

Personally, I take the Socratic approach to contentious conversation; listen and ask questions, but that can be difficult in a format that almost expects someone to have a definitive stance from word one. It's taken years of forum engagement, mistakes, snafus (just ask the Warhammer community) and putting my foot in my mouth to get to where I am now. I've been fortunate to have the runway to make those mistakes, but not everyone does. Creating a safe space helps with this considerably. We all need to feel like we can make a mistake and not be eviscerated for it and this is something we're trying to do.

As always, thanks for the conversation :).

Daen2 votes

As usual, we're simpatico in this Daen.

Does seem to be a common theme, yeah.

Right now we're communicating that some features would be key to the success of changing the format of Boards organization, and they're listening with a receptive ear. Speaking for myself and our team, we won't make promises for the Boards team and put them in a lurch, but they've been very receptive to our feedback and requests.

This is extremely vague, but understandingly so. I'm very happy to hear that there's communication in this regard, and I look forward to seeing results of that collaboration.

I agree. Without proper features to support this change it would be counter to logic. This is why I'm strongly counseling that we make sure we do everything we can to set us all up for success by rolling changes out with the tools needed to make a new format work.

This begs the question, if it's clearly counter to logic why was the thread put forth without explaining what makes it logically sound? The organization thread's OP did not detail any of this feature discussion, and it made it extremely easy for players to immediately jump to the conclusion that it was a poor choice.

I'm not intending to point fingers or throw accusations your way, I'm just curious as to how that slipped through the cracks and how it can potentially be resolved in the future. Would something like a focus group of dedicated players be an option, to use to ask questions and run things by, or would the concern be that it could potentially alienate players not included in that sort of venture?

I can't/won't speak to the situation back then since I don't have the full context and understanding of what was going on behind the scenes.

Me neither! The only perspective I have is from the player side, and in a way it's the only one that matters.

I can promise you is that the NAPR and NAPS teams are committed to being transparent and consistent in our communication around changes to the Boards ecosystem.

I don't doubt it, for the last month or so the transparency and consistency has been significantly higher than previously. I really do appreciate your willingness to hang out with us, it's noticed by pretty much everyone.

Human nature is a challenging beast. When exposing ourselves to a potentially hostile environment (whether this perception is accurate or not), we tend to be defensive and reactive in our interaction which causes us to miss/misinterpret context. This holds true for most human beings, Rioter or not :p.

Fair! The counterpoint, however, is that it's a communicator's job to avoid those biases whenever possible in order to communicate effectively. I understand that not every Rioter is trained in communications, but defensive/reactive interaction isn't exactly rare.

I take the Socratic approach to contentious conversation; listen and ask questions, but that can be difficult in a format that almost expects someone to have a definitive stance from word one.

Difficult because of the Boards' tools specifically, or a problem with long-form communication in general?

I'm not sure how other people feel about this, but I don't really feel like that's required of me on the Boards. I'm obviously not a Rioter so I don't have that "pressure to perform", as it were, but I've never really felt like I have to stick to my guns rather than going with the flow of conversation.

Questions, to me, are a lot more compelling than concrete viewpoints in a lot of ways. Example:

  • Here are some ideas we have been working on. What are your thoughts, and do you have suggestions for improvement?
  • This is what we plan to do, let us know what you think!

The first option is a lot less definitive, but I have a feeling it would be better received by the community than the second option. What do you think?

It's taken years of forum engagement, mistakes, snafus (just ask the Warhammer community) and putting my foot in my mouth to get to where I am now. I've been fortunate to have the runway to make those mistakes, but not everyone does.

This is kind of off topic, but what are some of the mistakes you've made that you felt were particularly important in bringing you to where you are now? If it's not obvious I'm interested in the path you've taken.

As always, thanks for the conversation :).

Of course! Always a pleasure.

Praetor Don1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Zwill,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2015-06-22T19:16:09.285+0000)

Putting all of our cards on the table: we don't know exactly what will happen if we change GD.

I figure a good chunk of us will leave to the GD site hosted, maintained, and moderated by GD members. A remainder will stay behind to shitpost and cause other mayhem (I do not condone this, just my observation); and several of us will transition to All Chat, but won't be happy about it.

RiotZwill3 votes

That's one possible outcome. The optimist in me hopes that the change could be viewed in a positive light and would bring more players to the Boards.

the Anarchit3cht4 votes

Then the optimist in you should convince the realist in you to actually listen to your players.

Dextix LT2 votes

This already shows that you dont give a single fck about us. We dont want the "All chat" , we didnt even want these boards, yet you are doing the same thing, ignoring us all and saying "OH we know better than you that it will be better than you". YOu act like high and mighty assholes. What the hell happened to you? DOes community really not matter to you even in the slightest?

Their wishes can be ignored because "you know better?"

Cosnirak1 votes

Except that you don't speak for all of us. I DO want the All Chat. I did want these boards. I am far from alone, and possibly (I don't have the numbers) in the majority.

They aren't acting like high and mighty assholes. You're demonizing. If the community didn't matter to them they wouldn't be changing it at all. They wouldn't be here talking about it and asking for our input.

You not liking it doesn't make it bad or wrong. Instead of demonizing them you could (and should) be trying to tell them the details of what you do and and don't like in order to help shape the future to your liking.

Dextix LT2 votes

Thats the point. Not many want these changes, yet riot does it anyway, have they ever herd of a concept called democracy?

Also, yes, they act like that. You think they care about our input? Our input is that most people dont want this! THEY DO NOT CARE! That is acting like all high and mighty assholes, because they think they know the best and their listening to our feedback is at best "duly noted".

Many people already told them what to do.

  1. ACTUALLY listen to your community! Not ask for feedback yet do everything the same anyways, which is happening now.

  2. Before any major change, ACTUALLY talk with community. Not surprise them with a bomb and then roll in the changes, no matter what.

  3. Do not change the boards. Many people dont like that. Many people didnt like transferring from forums. So many old faces have died off because they didnt want to go to this Reddit V2. Many more would die out.

But for me it feels like im shouting at god himself, because he is so mighty that he doesnt give a single shit.

Cosnirak1 votes

"Not many want these changes"

You don't have the proof to back that up. I don't have the proof to refute it either. Riot has the data. They look at that data but know that it isn't actually perfect either. So they talk to us to get even MORE info. But they still have more info on it than we do and I respect that fact. You're just assuming you know what everyone wants or doesn't. The very thing you're accusing Riot of doing. Meanwhile they're asking us how we feel about it...

"have they ever herd of a concept called democracy?"

This isn't a democracy. It's honestly that simple. There's a reason board features aren't just voted on. But that doesn't make it a dictatorship either. Even within Riot they talk to each other about it and ask for opinions but it still isn't voted on. I could spend hours explaining (vaguely) how things are done in more detail and I don't even have a first hand glimpse of it. If you wanna learn more about it I suggest you check out Ghostcrawler on twitter @OccupyGStreet .

Dextix LT1 votes

They ask how we feel, yet do they pay any attention? No. Hearing is not the same as listening. I can make assumption that not many people like these chagnes because many old forumers and other completely exited when these boards came live and i see a lot less people her than i saw in the old forus. In the old forums you have a huge number of wieves and people, look here, it is almost empty. A shadow of what it once was. Just check how many wievs did the threads on your old forums received, how many comments, and check this place.

And again, asking for opinions is good an all, but useless if riot does nothing with those opinions.

Cosnirak1 votes

"They ask how we feel, yet do they pay any attention? No. Hearing is not the same as listening."

Saying that doesn't make it true. There are mountains of proof that show they do things based on feedback from people here. Again, one of the best and most obvious in regards to this topic is the responses right here in this thread from Zwill on this very subject. I really hope that at some point you can move past your anger and see that.

"I can make assumption that not many people like these chagnes because many old forumers and other completely exited when these boards came live and i see a lot less people her than i saw in the old forus. In the old forums you have a huge number of wieves and people, look here, it is almost empty. A shadow of what it once was. Just check how many wievs did the threads on your old forums received, how many comments, and check this place."

There are lots of reasons people stop coming. You're assuming you know why. Also the previous forum change isn't the same as this one, so regardless of what it caused before that doesn't decide what will happen this time.

Have you tried saying how you want things to change (or not change) in detail? I haven't read every post in this thread so if you did here I'm sorry I missed it.

Dextix LT1 votes

Saying that doesn't make it true. There are mountains of proof that show they do things based on feedback from people here. Again, one of the best and most obvious in regards to this topic is the responses right here in this thread from Zwill on this very subject. I really hope that at some point you can move past your anger and see that.

Promising something or saying that "we will take into consideration your feedback" doesnt mean they will do it. Narrative team promised us new lore more than 8 months ago, they still have not delivered.

Also, after all this time in eune and euw parts or forums and boards, i can safely say, rioters neither communicate nor listen to our feedback. Maybe its a little different for you here on na, but for us europeans its another.

There are also mountains of proof that riot doesnt listen to our feedback. How long has the community asked for the return of tribunal after its deletion? How long did it take to nerf OBIVIOUSLY op champs like pre nerf kass and nidalee even after the outcry of the community? How long did we beg riot not to delete the old forums, yet they did it anyways? How long are we going to wait for new lore, which narrative team destroyed and did nothing about? How long are we gonna be ignored by certain parts of riot, mostly teams like narrative?

THere are many more examples of riot ignoring us as the community and doing all they want or LCS wants.

Look man, i respected Riot once. Before the boards even came to be. i was one of the fiercest defenders of Riot and Many(not all) of their policies in EUNE forums. But then they completely ignored all of us and killed of the forums and kciked us out in the boards. I was pissed, but i accknowledged that, i said ok, i can live with that, despite EUNE not even receiving GD like you did here on NA, we didnt get that.

But then, came the lore retcon, which broke the camels back for me. Narrative team showed us how riot treats its community. Without any warning, without any feedback, narrative team came and DESTROYED, all the lore that was there for all eternity! We were left in a void, we still fight in the same game, yet it makes no sense since IOW doesnt exist according to narrative.

They made us promises that they will fix it, that their lore will be better and more full with content. They promised us they were going to communicate with us. Yet all these promises were just left as they were. Narrative team, especially after retcon, mostly ignores its community, lore still hasnt been fixed, the new lore is but a pale shadow of what we had before, a cheap imitation which relies on being pretty and not interesting.

That is why i hate riot and especially the Narrative team. And since riot are the employers of this team and cant make them to do decent work, i am angry at riot at the same time.

I want simple changes, or no changes at all, or let them be slow changes. Not like LOL retcon or forum destruction. Changes shouldnt happen overnight. First let us see those changes in work, then let us decide we want those changes or not.

Cosnirak2 votes

It still comes down to the same stuff again and again. Except for the retcon every single thing you've mentioned is easily explained and has been explained time and time again. But you aren't listening. You keep being mad that things aren't done the way YOU want them to be. Or at the speed YOU want them to be done.

"They made us promises that they will fix it, that their lore will be better and more full with content. They promised us they were going to communicate with us. Yet all these promises were just left as they were."

I don't know how they screwed up so bad with the lore. I wish I did. I'm sure there are reasons and I'm sure those reasons aren't talked about publicly for good reason. But it still sucks and Riot is working on making it better. They have apologized. They ARE communicating. Despite the massive hate and anger directed at them by people like you.

I don't think they've promised as much as a lot of people seem to imply either. People who are upset take hopeful "we're trying"s and "stuff is being done"s as promises of doing things the way the angry people want it done but that wasn't actually promised.

At its heart League of Legends is not a story game. It's a MOBA. 5v5 fierce battles. The lore is a relatively small part of the game. It's fine to care about the lore and be passionate about it but it's important to stay in perspective about it. The same goes for the boards. And what you're saying you want? It's happening. RIGHT NOW. There are multiple threads on the upcoming boards changes going on right now.

Silverling1 votes

{quoted}

At its heart League of Legends is not a story game. It's a MOBA. 5v5 fierce battles.

Interestingly enough, its possible to include a logical story within a MOBA. I recommend looking into a game callrd 'Infinite Crisis', which is a LoL-style MOBA put out by DC Comics. I could sit and tell you exactly what's going on in that game story wise, they even explain why you reset your level every time you get into a game.(I would explain now but am currently at work)

It also has quite possibly one of the best tutorial modes I have played through, IMO. Shame they're shutting it down in the fall but I believe that is due to poor advertising if anything.

Cosnirak1 votes

IC is made by DC Comics. They already have tons of story to use from before the game was ever made so that seems like an unfair comparison.

Of course I don't actually know their inner workings, if their stuff is unique to the game, if they can easily use writers they have at DC for other stuff for little extra cost, or if the game is being shut down because they spent too much on lore and not enough on making a good game. :p More importantly I'm pretty sure they got a lot of people to play IC because of the already existing characters and world of DC Comics. That means the story element is likely to be far more meaningful to its average player than is the case with League.

It's fine to want League to have more and better story. And apparently it used to have that (I wasn't into it enough back then to really know how it was 1st hand). But it's still important to keep things in perspective.

I don't know why they stopped/changed doing the lore like they used to. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't because it was profitable, widely loved, easy to keep up with, and full of people passionate about it at Riot that are still there now. Something went wrong. The same goes for the old boards and now for the current ones. They aren't living up to their potential.

Fight for good changes, not stagnation. :)

Silverling2 votes

{quoted}

"What the GD people discuss is in the general relation to merging and removing of certain topics on the boards. If you actually read what some of them have said, then you would realize that they are not simply saying "keep everything the same! Make no change!" but are actually saying "Please don't do this, there are better options we can have to make these changes.""

I've read many of their posts. They are doing exactly what you're saying they aren't doing. At besta couple are saying there are better options but either mentioning 0 such options or offering 1 that's obviously not an actual good solution at all. Most however are just saying not to do it and that it's bad and stupid and will destroy GD and goes against some old promise by someone who isn't around anymore.

"When I talk about communicating in the Lore form of the sense. I mean that the WRITING TEAM NEEDS TO TALK TO THE BOARDS.

When I talk about communication within the forums? Then that is handled by the COMMUNITY MANAGER(s)."

Actually they're highly related. One of the main benefits Riot hopes to achieves with the change to the boards is creating an environment more welcoming to Rioters, including the lore folks., which would result in more communication from them. Though yes, talking about both in the same thread has created some confusion at times.

"This is a very poor way of handling for the people who are essentially your 'consumers'. Let me tell you something about business, my dear...."

I'm well aware of all that. But I'm not Riot. They won't tell you to leave if you don't like how lore has been handled. But I will. Because if they're going to fuck it up so bad for so long they deserve to lose some customers over it and they need that sort of thing to grab their attention and get them to handle it better.

"Then why are you arguing so hard over the sake of the Lore if you don't care about it?"

I'm not arguing hard over the lore. You are. I'm just being nice and offering my opinion on how to handle it better (for both sides) with the hope that in the end it will result in better lore and then maybe I will get into it. If that doesn't work out... oh well. I'm not investing much into the lore issue right now by just talking about it some here on the forums.

"I am going to link you to this post that I made a few pages back, because its rather clear that you are misinterpreting what I was meaning with the drawings I created."

I don't need any link to help here. I can just scroll up to the opening post you made in this very thread. Your drawings are not ambiguous. They demonize the crap out of Riot repeatedly. In fact I did exactly that while writing that part of my previous post to double check and see how bad it was. Holy crap, it's mean!

Welp.

This post pretty much confirms that I have absolutely no reason to continue this discussion with you.

Its not because I can't continue to argue points on it, because I most certainly can! The problem is that I have much better things to do than to waste my time and energy trying to make something sensible out of your babble.

You have proven two things to me in the course of this conversation. They are:

  1. You refuse to listen to any form of reason, no matter how logical it might be.

  2. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Throughout the course of this conversation, this has pretty much how its been for me:

http://i.imgur.com/0KEE8lW.jpg

So, essentially, if you're just going to see the pictures and not actually read anything that I've said? Then I have no reason to continue speaking to you, especially considering the wild assumptions you keep coming up with. Frankly at this point I wouldn't be surprised if you came out and said that you've been trolling this whole time... But more likely than not you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

P.S. Its rather hypocritical of you to tell me to stop demonizing Riot(Which I am not.) and then turn around and demonize General Discussion, especially when you appear to know absolutely nothing about those that lurk there. I'm also going to point out that this is coming from some one who is tied to Roleplaying, which, if I am not mistaken, a good number of GDers absolutely despise. I have not been treated well by some(specifically some, not all) GDers, and yet I am still defending their position. Why? Because in the end we are after the same goal. Perhaps if you actually took off your rose tinted glasses and saw what exactly the people of GD are actually trying to do? You might have a different mindset over their cause.

But probably not. You seem content giving a mule a run for its money in stubbornness.

Silverling7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Zwill,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2015-06-22T19:16:09.285+0000)

Snip for shortness

I appreciate the well written and thought out response to this. However, I cannot say I am particularly comforted by what you have said.

I can understand the reasoning for wanting change, and change can be a good or a bad thing depending on the direction you take it in. With the way you have explained yourself, I don't see the change you are presenting heading in the direction that you intend. Yes, in the long run it may be for the better... But how long are you intending for this to happen? Weeks? Months? Years?

As of now the new style of forums have been officially active for close to ten months, and yet I am finding a good number of people who still do not like this change. In the long run, I'm sure it will be fine. But will that be soon? Or will that be after the already established community has left and been replaced with a new one?

Your post also seems to suggest that we, the player base, do not know what we think is best for ourselves. You are correct in saying that both the game and community matures, and as such I would imagine a relationship between the players and the Devs would be treated as such: Two adults discussion events with each other. As of now I have the feeling you are seeing it as an adult speaking to an emotionally unstable teenager, which, quite frankly, is rather insulting to both myself and the community.

I have seen posts regarding the vision that you see for yourself and the LoL community, I sense that you have the intentions for good, but there are three things that need to be taken into consideration before us, as a community, and you, the Devs of Riot, become more in tune with each other... And progressively mend what has been lost between the time during beta and now.

  • First: We, as a community, need to know Riot's vision of where they see this heading and what YOU desire from us in the long run.

  • Second: You, as the Player Relations Manager, need to know what the community member's vision is. You need to know what WE want to see in the long run from both you and other community members.

  • And Third: We, as a community and as the Player Relations Manager, need to come together and decide in what way is best for us to fulfill both the Riot and the Community visions, while in turn adding and removing to what each of our visions contain.

From what I have seen within your post and other Dev posts, there is a severe lack of the second consideration within that list. I have seen plenty saying "This is what we, At Riot, want. We will hear your opinions and consider them lightly.", but nothing that says "We, as Riot, want to know what YOU can come up with as a solution."

I can honestly say if you were to make a post stating your concerns over what you see the forums as, and sincerely ask what us forum members have in mind for practical and sensible changes that we can come up with something that both you and us forum members will like. If you were to take this standing in all of the decisions made for the sake of the forums, I can assure that you will see less of this:

http://i.imgur.com/yEzb56i.jpg

And more of this:

http://i.imgur.com/jDvs9WC.jpg

At least, that's the way that I see it. There is a game I will use as an example that I believe you should look into to see just how much they interact with their community, and to show just how much more open the community is towards their devs. The game is currently in alpha, but Star Citizen does a very good job reaching out to their members, and considering they're almost completely crowdfunded, then I'd say they're doing something right.

But -shrug- as I said before, what you do now is your choice. What happens in the future may be good or bad, but I only wish that you keep my words in mind when making your decision.

RiotZwill3 votes

Your post also seems to suggest that we, the player base, do not know what we think is best for ourselves. You are correct in saying that both the game and community matures, and as such I would imagine a relationship between the players and the Devs would be treated as such: Two adults discussion events with each other. As of now I have the feeling you are seeing it as an adult speaking to an emotionally unstable teenager, which, quite frankly, is rather insulting to both myself and the community.

This was most certainly not the intent of my post, and if that's what I conveyed, then I apologize.

I had hoped that my post would convey and explain some of the thought process behind the proposed changes, acknowledge the response and feedback we've received to date and to appeal to you (speaking to the community at large) to make an attempt to consider the change from a different viewpoint after some time had passed.

First: We, as a community, need to know Riot's vision of where they see this heading and what YOU desire from us in the long run.

I agree with this and am working with the Boards development team to communicate this in a clear and concise manner, in regards to the future of the Boards development as a social platform. From a more holistic health standpoint; our team vision is for the North American Boards to be a vibrant, active and safe part of the community ecosystem where players can come together to share their experience and passion around League and other (gamer) culturally relevant topics.

Second: You, as the Player Relations Manager, need to know what the community member's vision is. You need to know what WE want to see in the long run from both you and other community members.

I agree with this and spend a considerable amount of time reading feedback and Boards posts, especially here in the Boards Feedback section. Threads, such as this and more focused discussion threads, are a useful catalyst to evoke conversation and impart greater understanding of the more deep seeded issues.

And Third: We, as a community and as the Player Relations Manager, need to come together and decide in what way is best for us to fulfill both the Riot and the Community visions, while in turn adding and removing to what each of our visions contain.

Yes, I do agree.

Often times heated feedback can come across as demands; our way or the highway. Right now, because folks are in an emotionally charged mindset, feedback is fairly absolute, with only one expressed path forward. That's not to say that there haven't been some well thought out posts and counterarguments, because there have been, but that the most vocal segment of the crowd wishes for the continuation of the status quo from a Boards organizational standpoint.

We are here, reading your feedback, listening and engaging in conversation. Today, we had an internal discussion around the feedback received to date and the results of that should be posted as soon as by weeks end.

Silverling3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Zwill,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=003000060000,timestamp=2015-06-23T05:12:54.155+0000)

This was most certainly not the intent of my post, and if that's what I conveyed, then I apologize.

Apology accepted, I understand that mistakes do happen. I do appreciate your understanding, though.

One more point I'd like to highlight on, though...

I agree with this and spend a considerable amount of time reading feedback and Boards posts, especially here in the Boards Feedback section. Threads, such as this and more focused discussion threads, are a useful catalyst to evoke conversation and impart greater understanding of the more deep seeded issues.

Its not necessarily just reading feedback, but actively asking what the community has for ideas in relation to the problems at hand.

I have seen plenty of "I see your feedback and acknowledge it", but I have not seen "Well I want to know what your idea is to solve this issue", if that makes any form of sense. In order to create a better connection between yourself and the community, I can't see it hurting to open up a thread that's specifically for discussion in this matter. Have us tell you what we have in mind firsthand and not in the form of a rage-filled rant caused by reading the inkling of what you have in mind for the future.

You might get both a better idea of what we, as a community, are aiming for, as well as better feedback in the long run.

Edit: On a side note, can we get some kind of quote system in place for those who choose to view threads in chronological view? It gets really confusing when one has no idea who is posting in reference to another post. .__.

Maybe like, add a quote of the post they are replying to in chronological view. Or something... Please.

RiotZwill2 votes

In my course of my job, I frequently solicit feedback from players as to their thoughts around solutions. The benefit of making a post such as the one last week is that it acts as a catalyst, drawing the feedback out, unsolicited. We've received several suggested solutions that we're digesting and will be addressing in our response post.

But since you're here (and at the risk of sounding insincere), if you have suggested solutions, I'd be interested in hearing them.

Starlighte1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Zwill,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=00300006000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-23T05:45:38.072+0000)

In my course of my job, I frequently solicit feedback from players as to their thoughts around solutions. The benefit of making a post such as the one last week is that it acts as a catalyst, drawing the feedback out, unsolicited. We've received several suggested solutions that we're digesting and will be addressing in our response post.

But since you're here (and at the risk of sounding insincere), if you have suggested solutions, I'd be interested in hearing them.

There are a couple of possibilities to allow GD to maintain it's core attribute: community, while still pushing for long-term board health. Something as simple as de-listing GD, similar to the RP forum, could EASILY fix the problem of visibility, where Riot does not want to have GD visible, as they believe it to be a blemish.

Another possible solution is to allow for General Discussion to be a tag (as I believe a tag/filter system is intrinsic with the merging of the sub-boards... without it this merger will DESTROY communities like the dedicated fanbase for Lore or Music) and this tag would automatically make the thread invisible to anyone who is not searching for threads with that filter/tag enabled.

At the end of the day, breaking up GD is not only a poor decision, but a decision that is contrary to Riot's Manifesto. If your community doesn't want something, it would be antithetical to do it anyways (as your goal is to be "The most player-focused game company in the world." ... or is that just a greeting on a hallmark card?)

I think what Riot is missing the most right now, is what makes GD so important to the people who reside there. You, Zwill, and others, need to step out of your comfort zone (or your zone of assuming you know) and be humble; ask the opinions of GD. Why is it important? What would it mean to lose this? Do you understand why we want to remove it? Can we make changes to the rules, or culture, that still maintain what you hold most important to the definition of GD?

I think you guys have given up too soon on GD. You haven't made a fair effort on reform (if that is what you're after) or understanding. You can't be player-focused while not understanding a clique within your own gaming culture. Take the time, make a post. Get some real understanding, and then try and look at Riot's plan from the perspective of an outsider, one who doesn't know the nitty-gritty that you are privy to.

RiotZwill2 votes

There are a couple of possibilities to allow GD to maintain it's core attribute: community, while still pushing for long-term board health. Something as simple as de-listing GD, similar to the RP forum, could EASILY fix the problem of visibility, where Riot does not want to have GD visible, as they believe it to be a blemish.

This is something we will discuss and consider, but in counterpoint: does doing this improve the overall health of the Boards?

I think what Riot is missing the most right now, is what makes GD so important to the people who reside there. You, Zwill, and others, need to step out of your comfort zone (or your zone of assuming you know) and be humble; ask the opinions of GD. Why is it important? What would it mean to lose this? Do you understand why we want to remove it? Can we make changes to the rules, or culture, that still maintain what you hold most important to the definition of GD?

I don't disagree with this request.

Many Rioters have been at Riot or a part of the League of Legends community for long enough to have a nuanced understanding of what makes GD tick. That being said, it's easy for us to lose a bit of perspective or empathy when we have to consider both sides of the coin. I can't give a specific timeline as to when I'll be able to start a discussion around this (my calendar for the next month is...difficult) but I will make a concerted effort to do so.

To turn the question around though:

  • To what degree do you realistically believe that the GD community would be open to compromise? Would they be willing to, for example, limit the discussion to topics that are relevant to gamer culture?
  • Should this conversation be open and prominently visible to the rest of the boards? Does it lose it's overall effect if we're only getting a narrow viewpoint of a specific subsection of the community?
  • Does GD believe that the name "General Discussion" carries with it an implied social contract that "anything within reason goes"?
SilentNightSona3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Zwill,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=0030000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-23T06:22:20.969+0000)

This is something we will discuss and consider, but in counterpoint: does doing this improve the overall health of the Boards?

I don't disagree with this request.

Many Rioters have been at Riot or a part of the League of Legends community for long enough to have a nuanced understanding of what makes GD tick. That being said, it's easy for us to lose a bit of perspective or empathy when we have to consider both sides of the coin. I can't give a specific timeline as to when I'll be able to start a discussion around this (my calendar for the next month is...difficult) but I will make a concerted effort to do so.

To turn the question around though:

  • To what degree do you realistically believe that the GD community would be open to compromise? Would they be willing to, for example, limit the discussion to topics that are relevant to gamer culture?
  • Should this conversation be open and prominently visible to the rest of the boards? Does it lose it's overall effect if we're only getting a narrow viewpoint of a specific subsection of the community?
  • Does GD believe that the name "General Discussion" carries with it an implied social contract that "anything within reason goes"?

Just got home from work, hope you are still up >.>

I'ma just jump right in here.

  1. I believe that a large majority of GD is willing to compromise and form a solution that works for everyone. We've seen these kind of behaviors before while communicating with Tamat over the GD name change before, or when Pendragon and Chicken Wrap conversed over the rules of GD, and GD worked hard to make rules that would be reasonable for us. There are a select few number of GD'ers, a rather loud minority, who do there very best to make sure other people "can't have nice things". There are a few people out there who will do anything to cause the destruction of GD, purely because they want to seem edgy. They don't care about building the community and making it a better place. They often tell us we take forums and the community too seriously. These are the type of people that don't belong in this discussion, but strangely their loud voices seem to be heard regardless, and are a large factor in why Rioters seem to think Gd'ers are "just a bunch of trolls" that need stricter regulation.

  2. It should be visible for everyone, so that anyone who wants can take place in the discussion. Yes, if it is open to all, we will get the type of people I mentioned above, but it is the responsibility of both Rioters and the GD'ers and other community members who care about this place to ignore the trolls. While we need to get viewpoints for a wide player base though, we also need to pay attention to who is delivering the feedback, and what they are trying to attain.

  3. I would like to say yes to this part, but everyone's definition of "within reason" seems to differ to some degree. As an FEK moderator, who now also moderates an experimental side-GD for the time being. I've witnesses this first hand, and plan on making a much larger post on the issue later. We need clear and concise rules in a lot of different categories to solve this. If you haven't seen it already, Chickenwrap's rules thread seemed to be a very good start.

Silverling2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Zwill,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=00300006000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-23T05:45:38.072+0000)

In my course of my job, I frequently solicit feedback from players as to their thoughts around solutions. The benefit of making a post such as the one last week is that it acts as a catalyst, drawing the feedback out, unsolicited. We've received several suggested solutions that we're digesting and will be addressing in our response post.

But since you're here (and at the risk of sounding insincere), if you have suggested solutions, I'd be interested in hearing them.

Copy/pasting this from my last post in case you didn't see it:

On a side note, can we get some kind of quote system in place for those who choose to view threads in chronological view? It gets really confusing when one has no idea who is posting in reference to another post. .__.

Maybe like, add a quote of the post they are replying to in chronological view. Or something... Please.

But I have several ideas that I can throw around, most of it is in relation to the general format of the forums. Mind you, I mention these likely due to the fact that I lurk around mostly on the Roleplaying boards.

For one: Options/Preferences. I love these sorts of things, it lets you build the way you view the forums in a way that you like. With the right options/preferences, some one who prefers the Reddit style can keep it in that manner, and some one who does not can change it as they please.

I would love the option to be able to hide the first post so its not viewed on every single page that I flip through(as I do honestly prefer chronological view), I would also like the option to have page numbers instead of the 'show more' button when sorting through threads.

Also, the way images are formatted in posts. In case you haven't noticed, I draw a lot. I also like posting them in threads... But I don't especially like that, outside of the first post, that they show up as teeny little thumbnails. If it could be added as a preference or something to show them as full sized I would be quite happy.

http://i.imgur.com/vm0Exqo.jpg

(That one's meant to be small... Really...)

Also, I've seen this popping up in a few other forums as of late, and that's a 'save draft' function. Which is kind of awesome, but not necessary.

Two others I'd like to see would be a PM system, as well as mobile support(seriously, have you tried to log here on with a phone? D: ) but I also think those are ones people have been asking for a w hile.

Now, onto the forum organization... I think we can agree that it needs to be done, but I don't think merging subboards together will solve the problem. If anything, there needs to be a bit more separation. Here's what I have in mind:

http://i.imgur.com/9rFWt8l.jpg

Its.. A bit of a crude representation, but I think you get the idea... (Also please add the Fanfiction boards back, the creative community will love you)

See, with this you can have a selection of categories in which you can place certain topics underneath, clicking on the dropdown arrow will show a list of SEPARATE BOARDS that fall under those categories, and clicking on them will take you to those. You could also have it to where clicking on the main category name that will bring up a list of various threads from each of the subboards under them. From there, you could have X number of threads from the category board page show up on the main boards page(If this even makes sense).

Granted, I am also not a programmer, so what I am suggesting could also be horribly complicated and lead to a huge mess. EIther way I thought that I might throw it out there.

On a side note, that Star Citizen game I mentioned earlier posted this recently. I think it highlights a lot of what I have been trying to say to you guys(and in probably better words). Its a good read, and I recommend it. (:

Cynicatt3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Zwill,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2015-06-22T19:16:09.285+0000)

-snipped- -Andy

You're probably not going to read this, and I don't want to sound nasty, but this whole post sums up to "We know you don't like the changes, but we're going through with it anyway".

Yea, the backlash from the incident will clear up after a while, but do you realize the reason why it will clear up? Probably not. It's because community members outraged by the change will be leaving. Many of them will lose faith in you as a company. I know it sounds weird, but GD actually means that much to some people.

The other boards don't want to be mashed in with GD either. If your comment about reading all the feedback really is true, you will see that everyone has had a lot of really great reasons why the decisions you've made(and obviously aren't about to admit were wrong and change) are bad ones.

None of these communities want to be jammed together. The sound and music topics will be gone almost completely, buried under art and cosplay. People who had previously enjoyed a section of the boards won't want to be bothered sifting through all of this junk from the other boards to find what they want. Players won't use these boards anymore. But at this point it seems like that's what you want.

We are willing to work with you, but you don't seem to be willing to work with us. You keep generalizing us all as being that one asshole that made the rude comment that made you uncomfortable.

Dextix LT20 votes

I think Riot has already shown how much they care about this community, by retconning all the LOL lore and still doing nothing to create new one which they promised to us.

TheTyeGuy11 votes

I still think it's strange that people would just assume that "Nothing" is happening.

Even though it has been shown that recently the narrative team has been working on stuff.

Dextix LT6 votes

Last time i checked i dont even know why summoners rift, crystal scar or any map even exists. I do not know what the fck is valoran, i dont know why any champ is fighting and where! I do not even know what the hell is lee sin's lore anymore since he was a summoner AND THEY WERE REMOVED!

Hiring 1 writer and pretending that the old league never existed is not doing anything.

They promised us a new map of valoran, they promised us to rework champion stories, they promised us to create new interesting stories, did that happen? NOPE!

Baron of Bread8 votes

Have you heard of Sion, Maokai or Cassiopeia? They had their stories rewritten. Do you remember the Shurima event? It had a pretty good story to go with it (albeit there is almost certainly more to that story).

New lore is coming out. It just isn't coming out at a rapid pace.

Dextix LT7 votes

How long was it? 8 Months? More? Shurima event was but a small drop in the ocean.

It isnt coming out in a rapid pace, its coming out in a goddamn turtle pace.

Even fanfic writers can create mopre stories with more content and make them more interesting than what riot is shitting out right now. Have you ever heard of lee? Skarner? FIddlesticks? Nocturne? Dafuq are they supposed to be now? Why are these champs even fighting on the rift? WHY?

Goddamn factions group has more backstory than what riot gives us.

I want to see the lore than they promised, it is not that hard, since you already have a vast world to build upon, give me at least 2 months and even i will manage to create valoran and reason for these champions to fight eachother. Riot has a whole TEAM to do that!

I dont think either of us lore lovers will be satisfied with this SOON(tm) bullshit.

Why was LOL role even retconned in the first place? Yes they all found their way into the league, but that is what was putting them all together! That was what made our imaginations grow! This wasnt a "limitation" as the lore team saw, it was a component which connected everyone.

But look what has happened. Riot removed all the lore that was, and gave us a mere 10% of what was before. I dont want to wait 10 years to get the rest of the story.

Saminus Maximus10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=UdlArWbB,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2015-06-21T18:22:14.002+0000)

Do you remember the Shurima event? It had a pretty good story to go with it (albeit there is almost certainly more to that story).

-Glances at new skarner lore- Kek Seriously though Skarner went from this:

Centuries ago, there lived a race of creatures as ferocious as they were wise. The brackern were unusual beings blessed with the earth's primal magic, embodied in the form of crystals. Their kind knew of an arcane ritual to bind their life's essence to a crystal, communing with the magic embedded in it. With this power, the brackern thrived in the Odyn Valley, protecting both creatures and crystals alike. Despite attacks from those looking to claim the primal magic, it seemed that nothing could get past the brackern's defenses. Nothing, that is, until the devastation of a Rune War.

A vicious battle was fought near the Odyn Valley and the unleashed chaotic magic poisoned the crystals. The brackern began to grow sick and die, and no amount of defensive magic could reverse the effects. To avoid extinction, their only course was to hibernate underground until the wars stopped. The strongest, most intelligent brackern hibernated closer to the surface to awaken first and assess the world's condition for the return of their race. The recent mining operations and violent escalation in Kalamanda were enough to awaken the first of these vanguards. When Skarner burst to the surface, he lashed out in anger and confusion. Reason eventually won out over his anger when he realized that the agents of the League who found him were simply functionaries. Skarner was invited to the Institute of War to share the brackern's story. In return, the summoners told him about the history that his kind had slept through. Much had been done to curb the unchecked use of magic since the Rune Wars, but it was obvious that the world was not yet safe for his kind to reawaken. For now, however, there is a place where Skarner can use his power to change the world into one to which his kind could eventually return: the League of Legends.

+expanded lore in the JoJ, + A 1585 word league judgment short story expanding on the character that i cant even fit into this post because its too long. To this:

Skarner, the crystalline guardian, defends the entrance to a realm deep beneath the shuriman wastes. The few who survive trespassing his domain describe a creature of terrifying intelligence, anger, and precision. What this merciless creature protects, no one knows.

Im not joking. That is the ENTIRETY of Skarner's lore after he was moved to shurima. It literally translates to three sentances, one for location, one for adjectives, and one to end in a question to make it all mysterious.. You can see why people are just a little bit upset that the entirety of the lore has been left in a similar if not worse state for almost a year.

Baron of Bread6 votes

Yes, that is what happened to Skarner, but there were two short stories and two cinematics put out as well. To say that all of the lore is in a state similar to Skarner's is completely fallacious.

Saminus Maximus4 votes

Can you tell me...based on the new lore...where Shurima is in Valoran? No? How about Noxus? Whats going on in Demacia and why havent they attacked their hated enemies? The entire cultural, geological and political makeup of valoran is unknown other than some minor titbits we got in sions rework and the shurima event. Add to that the fact that most champion lores now raise and have more questions than answers, and the lore is in a pretty bad state with the vast majority of what we know about the world being either headcanon, or derived from the remnants of the old lore.

Baron of Bread2 votes

I can tell you that Bilgewater and the Shadow Isles are pretty close together, with the Shadow Isles to the northwest. You know that Noxus and Demacia are probably reasonably close together, as opposed to being so far apart that any military conflict between them makes no sense. According to Sion's lore there is active conflict between Demacia and Noxus currently. We know that Zaun and Piltover are very close together based on Ekko's lore.

Yes, we don't know where anything is in reference to everything else. We need a map for that and we do not have one. However, just because there are some parts missing from the new lore doesn't mean that they won't be added. If you have patience then you will be rewarded with more lore, and then you can be happy.

Dextix LT3 votes

But do we really? Noxus and Demacia may be huge leagues apart from each other, just fighting between and for some territories, just like they did before, oh wait, what they did before doesnt matter, since it isnt in the lore anymore. Is Jarvan 3 even in the lore now?

Its not just a few parts that are missing, about 80% of everyhing is missing.

I do not want to wait 10 years to get the full lore in bug bites. SInce i know for fcking sure that even a signle person can make good lore really fast, and riot has an entire team for that. More than half of the champs lore still doesnt make sense. New lores are shitty, pale shades of what they have been before. We are still fighting on the maps knowing nothing about them exept for 1. We still dont even know for what, where and how the hell are we fighting!

Leetri2 votes

Isn't Sion's jaw J3's crown? Everything that doesn't involve the Institute of War is still canon, up until Riot confirms it is not. Riot actually confirmed that they're doing lore stuff next month, and they did a lengthy post about why it took so long. Basically it comes down to everyone being busy with other things like creating the champion personalities and release trailers.

Dextix LT1 votes

Is it? Thats the point, we dont know what is what. Also, if anything that involves institute of war is not canon, then where are we fighting, for what purpose? Where did nocturne, fiddle and other being like that came from? What is lee's lore anymore?

Could you link me to the post, i want to read some more corporate bullshit and excuses that they always know how to make.

Also, lore team should be busy with LORE! And dont bullshit me that they were busy with creating champ personalities, because ekko is a generic black boy, and bard has a personality of a rock. A 14 year old can come up with better personalities in his fanfiction. Also i doubt that lore team works on trailers, exept for a few touches for trailers to coinside with the lore, which we dont have.....

Leetri3 votes

I looked up the lore, and his jaw was made from the crown of Jarvan 1, not 3. The game has nothing to do with the lore, because if it did it would make 0 sense. Why is Garen fighting against his sister? Why is Jarvan and Swain on the same team? Why are they just snatched up by mystical wizards to battle for arbitrary reasons?

Everyone connected to the League will have their lore rewritten once Riot gets around to it. Which would very well be what is happening next month. Here is the link btw. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/khkWEbWQ-what-the-hell-is-the-lore-team-getting-paid-for?comment=005b

They're not the "lore team", they're the narrative team. Everything that has even a resemblance of a story, they make. Trailers, teasers, everything that has to do with who the champions are as characters. The teaser for the River King? Directed by the narrative team. The comic and video for Ekko? Narrative team. The cinematic trailers like A Twist of Fate? Narrative team.

The new champions have WAY more personality than a lot of the old ones. For example Nocturne. No one even knows what Nocturne is, he's just "there". Who is Shaco? A serial killer dressed up as a clown? A demon? A clown which snapped?Two yordles stacked on top of each other? Ekko has a lot of personality, you just don't seem to understand it. Personality is more than a character sheet. By the comic you can tell he values his friends over all, and he would do anything to save them. And when he can't, he spends his time comforting his dying friend rather than taking revenge. That's just a small part of who he is.

Dextix LT5 votes

The game has nothing to do with the lore, because if it did it would make 0 sense.

Did you just say that? Games lore has nothing to do with the game? WHAT THE HELL???

Why is Garen fighting against his sister? Why is Jarvan and Swain on the same team? Why are they just snatched up by mystical wizards to battle for arbitrary reasons?

Just shows how little you know about the lore from before, im not going to cite everything, every one of these questions were answered and answered logically. You talk about lore without even knowing the old lore.

Everyone connected to the League will have their lore rewritten once Riot gets around to it. Which would very well be what is happening next month. Here is the link btw.

So basically SOON(tm).

They're not the "lore team", they're the narrative team. Everything that has even a resemblance of a story, they make. Trailers, teasers, everything that has to do with who the champions are as characters. The teaser for the River King? Directed by the narrative team. The comic and video for Ekko? Narrative team. The cinematic trailers like A Twist of Fate? Narrative team.

And this "narrative team" cannot get more people for their work because they work incredibly slow? Shouldnt they have thought about creating new lore first before retconing the old one? Shouldnt they have planned? Shouldnt the creation of the new lore be more important than creation of some goddamn clips like bard one which tell next to nothing about anything?

The new champions have WAY more personality than a lot of the old ones. For example Nocturne. No one even knows what Nocturne is, he's just "there". Who is Shaco? A serial killer dressed up as a clown? A demon? A clown which snapped?Two yordles stacked on top of each other?

Againt shows that you have not read and know anything about the old lore and stories about these two mysterious figures.

Ekko has a lot of personality, you just don't seem to understand it.

Look at braum, that is a personality. Look at ekko, you see a standart black teenager which hits every trope right in the center.

By the comic you can tell he values his friends over all, and he would do anything to save them. And when he can't, he spends his time comforting his dying friend rather than taking revenge. That's just a small part of who he is.

Ye, and that is basically the only part we know about him. Hes black, he loves his friends, he steals time. Thats it. What else does he have in his personality? How is he related with other champs of the league? What gave him the power to do this shit with time? Why does he even fight in whatever the hell we are fighting in?

All this time we have spent fighting in some mystical bullshit land with no rhyme or reason since the retcon.

And you say "Lore and game shouldnt be connected" , you are basically saying "Game doesnt require a story, a game is enough".

Saminus Maximus3 votes

{quoted}

I looked up the lore, and his jaw was made from the crown of Jarvan 1, not 3. The game has nothing to do with the lore, because if it did it would make 0 sense. Why is Garen fighting against his sister? Why is Jarvan and Swain on the same team? Why are they just snatched up by mystical wizards to battle for arbitrary reasons?

That is all explained by the existance of the league. Now its completely detached, lore and game no longer co-exist.

Everyone connected to the League will have their lore rewritten once Riot gets around to it. Which would very well be what is happening next month. Here is the link btw. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/khkWEbWQ-what-the-hell-is-the-lore-team-getting-paid-for?comment=005b

We shall see if they keep their promise of doing something within a month. Because honestly its reached breaking point and if they don't follow through as they haven't many times in the past. When riot first introduced the retcon i was one of the few people giving them the benefit of the doubt. Nearly a year later with very little done to fill in the massive tears they created with the retcon and i have barely any trust left.

They're not the "lore team", they're the narrative team. Everything that has even a resemblance of a story, they make. Trailers, teasers, everything that has to do with who the champions are as characters. The teaser for the River King? Directed by the narrative team. The comic and video for Ekko? Narrative team. The cinematic trailers like A Twist of Fate? Narrative team.

Your point? While all those events might look cool they rarely ever tell us anything other than a few scraps we can scrape off of them.

The new champions have WAY more personality than a lot of the old ones. For example Nocturne. No one even knows what Nocturne is, he's just "there". Who is Shaco? A serial killer dressed up as a clown? A demon? A clown which snapped?Two yordles stacked on top of each other? Ekko has a lot of personality, you just don't seem to understand it. Personality is more than a character sheet. By the comic you can tell he values his friends over all, and he would do anything to save them. And when he can't, he spends his time comforting his dying friend rather than taking revenge. That's just a small part of who he is.

Are you seriously saying that this:

A prodigy from the rough streets of Zaun, EkkoSquare.png Ekko manipulates time to spin any situation to his advantage. Using his own invention, the Z-Drive Resonance.png Zero-Drive, he explores the branching possibilities of reality. As well as experimenting with multi-dimensional probability, Ekko spends his days running wild with the other lost children of Zaun. Though he revels in this freedom, when there's a threat to his friends, he'll endure anything to defend them. To the unknowing observer, Ekko accomplishes the impossible with ease, time and time again.

Is as good as all of this:

Candidate: Nocturne Date: 11 March, 21 CLE

OBSERVATION The Field Architect has had a long day. Surveying the grounds for signs of degradation is no small task; taking readings every five feet is essential in order to detect even the slightest disturbances in the intricate energy fields. An overlooked spike in the surrounding forces could set off a chain reaction of destruction due to the rampant use of magic on the Fields of Justice. In his own little way, he liked to think that he was saving Runeterra one checkpoint at a time.

His work complete, the architect makes his way back to the summoning platform, where he passes a nexus that should have been dormant. An unbidden spark inside the nexus catches his eye. He turns to investigate only to be struck by a wild burst of energy arcing out of the nexus. The architect collapses to the floor in a heap, sprawling on the unforgiving cobblestone.

His body shrivels as a noxious trail of thick smoke pours out of his open mouth. It is shivering with life and pulsing with horrors.

It is born of nightmares.

REFLECTION Nocturne had drifted through the minds of humans for endless expanses of time. He beheld the faces they yearned for, absorbed the desires that coursed through their veins, and inhabited the fantasies that set their hearts ablaze. He lingered within the despicably human illusions they conjured in the narrow expanse that was their puny brains.

From all of them, he consumed the magic that rippled through their souls.

Nocturne had only a moment to examine his new found physical form before a circle of robed summoners appeared around him. He knew who they were before they even revealed themselves. These were the overlords whose faces consumed each mind of every summoner whose dreams he haunted. They were the voices that drenched lesser kinds with promises of great power, and they were the hands that directed the ebb and flow of the entire world. Nocturne knew what these humans wanted, but they would not get him.

His shadowed form ghosted silently toward one of the humans, reaching out with the ethereal tendrils of his consciousness. The cloaked human spasmed as his hands rose to tear at his own head. A bloodcurdling scream ripped through the air, then choked off into silence as the human's mind collapsed into itself.

The other humans barely had a chance to react before Nocturne was on them. He reached out with his limbs as twin blades extended forth from his arms to rend human flesh from bone. The shadow darted low and slashed upwards with his blades, impaling an unfortunate summoner through the entire length of his body.

Nocturne felt a group of humans rush up from behind; for a second, his form pulsed. Darkness smothered the entire field, an oppressive blackness that breathed and sighed. Victims eternally trapped in the phantasm murmured in the summoners' ears, promising eternal torment and pleading for release. Disembodied hands clawed at the living, desperate to rip any semblance of existence away for their own keeping.

The remaining summoners lashed out, flailing against the ghastly fingers that only disappeared long enough to reappear again in greater numbers. Spell incantations decayed on their lips as the magical energies refused to heed their call. The darkness began to suffocate the humans, and they clawed at their eyes in a wild attempt to regain their sight. Devoured by terror, they didn't even sense Nocturne's approach, nor did they feel the blades that cleaved through their soft bodies and condemned their souls to an eternity in the darkness.

One summoner had stood apart from the others. He was decorated with gold chains draped over purple robes. Unaffected by the blindness and horrors, he had chosen to observe impassively as the carnage unfurled. No expression flickered over his face as the pooled blood stained the hem of his robes, nor did his visage change when the dismembered head of his former comrade bumped up against his leg.

The summoner spoke. "Impressive. I see that the eons you've spent leeching off our minds have managed to serve some purpose."

"I know who you are." Nocturne returned.

"I'm flattered." The summoner sneered. "Then you should also know that it is time you repay us for the horrors you have wrought upon our kind."

"And how do you plan to do that, human?" A monstrous howl echoed from the shadows, something akin to what those humans called a laugh.

"You are now in the world of our control. And you shall be in our service."

"You call this pitiful existence 'payment'?" A flick of Nocturne's hideous blade sent a pile of steaming entrails splattering across the ground. He readied the jagged edge for this last foolish one. "You may have conjured me into your world somehow, but all you will receive is destruction."

With a roar, Nocturne heaved himself at the summoner. His blood-soaked blade came within a razor's width of carving that aggravating smirk off the human's face. Metal circled around his wrists, clanging shut, and sent him flying backwards into a heap of metal chains.

"No. This is your reparation." The summoner's lips parted, wet with anticipation. "Welcome to the League."

The summoners whose bodies lay in a pile around him raised their heads. Their arms shot out and clamped onto Nocturne with an iron grip. They dragged him downward, forcing his physical existence into submission. Every part of him screamed out against the shackles as he involuntarily bowed to the towering head summoner. Nocturne was now in service to the League, and it was his own eternal nightmare.

That was Nocturns league judgment, he also had a lore page three times as long as ekko's (That i couldnt even fit in because of the word limit on posts). Debating whether or not the character design is better would be arguing semantics since comparing a monster to a person is like comparing apples to oranges. However in the end Nocturn is is a far more fleshed out character than ekko, despite having far less to work with, and all the fancy animations and comics in the world wont change that unless they give us a bit more meat to chew on.

Grand Viper4 votes

{quoted}

I looked up the lore, and his jaw was made from the crown of Jarvan 1, not 3. The game has nothing to do with the lore, because if it did it would make 0 sense. Why is Garen fighting against his sister? Why is Jarvan and Swain on the same team? Why are they just snatched up by mystical wizards to battle for arbitrary reasons?

Everyone connected to the League will have their lore rewritten once Riot gets around to it. Which would very well be what is happening next month. Here is the link btw. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/khkWEbWQ-what-the-hell-is-the-lore-team-getting-paid-for?comment=005b

They're not the "lore team", they're the narrative team. Everything that has even a resemblance of a story, they make. Trailers, teasers, everything that has to do with who the champions are as characters. The teaser for the River King? Directed by the narrative team. The comic and video for Ekko? Narrative team. The cinematic trailers like A Twist of Fate? Narrative team.

The new champions have WAY more personality than a lot of the old ones. For example Nocturne. No one even knows what Nocturne is, he's just "there". Who is Shaco? A serial killer dressed up as a clown? A demon? A clown which snapped?Two yordles stacked on top of each other? Ekko has a lot of personality, you just don't seem to understand it. Personality is more than a character sheet. By the comic you can tell he values his friends over all, and he would do anything to save them. And when he can't, he spends his time comforting his dying friend rather than taking revenge. That's just a small part of who he is.

A list of the League Judgements:

Champion Judgements

I think lines like this:

Orianna

All that remains is to give it life. However, the enchantment of an Infinity Gear is purely theoretical. Corin is the first to come this close to making it a reality. He gently removes the Gear from the catalyst fluid. It pulses with energy. He smiles a too-wide smile as he places it inside of his creation. The reaction is immediate.

The gears inside the clockwork girl begin to turn, slowly at first. His creation begins to jerk, as life floods to every end of every limb. It is like watching a death spasm in reverse.

Corin clutches a picture of a pretty young girl to his chest as he watches, tears in his eyes. ... The girl smiled naïvely. She readied herself, the picture of agility and poise. She began the run as the tower fired bolts at her. It was immediately clear that something was wrong. The blasts from the tower did not seem benign, as they chewed up the ground around her. Her natural grace kept her one step ahead, for the moment, as they began to come more and more frequently. The trainer mashed his controls, trying desperately to turn it off, yelling at her the whole time. However, Orianna was too engrossed in her exercise to notice.

The first blast took her off her feet, knocking her into the ground. Winded, she attempted to get up. The second blast wasn't far behind. She tried weakly to get up, blood trickling from the corners of her mouth. After the third, she didn't get up.

Colors blur. The Institute of War came back into focus.

"Yes, I died," offered Orianna.

and this:

Maokai

Maokai’s disgust had not subsided. “You humans are the ones who are causing this. You ask me to feel for you when all I see is the hatred you bring onto yourselves. When you see your children being overrun with weapons, I see the fallen trees carved into your instruments of destruction. I see the land which has existed before you and which will continue to exist after you suffer for your petty squabbles.”

“Knowing all this, would you still choose to go back?" She asked.

The treant hesitated, surprising himself.

“Or will you continue to stand, impassively, believing that you can affect none of this?”

Her accusatory tone snapped him from his momentary hesitation. "Your wars are no concern of mine. You deign to awaken me to the pain you humans suffer, but before you gave me this curse I already knew your pain and suffering. When the earth absorbs the blood of your children, it cries. I have withstood this longer than you can even imagine. We of the earth do not feel, and thus I am not of the conviction to change how you humans live or die."

The summoner's eyes darkened. It was not the response the League wanted, but it was the only one they were going to get. “Then what will you do?”

“I will walk this path until you can turn me back, as promised.” He paused, and one could swear that something akin to a smile twisted the tree’s mouth. “Until then, I will punish you magic users with these hands you were kind enough to bestow upon me.”

Composing herself, the summoner expelled the illusion with a sweep of her hands. "Very well. That is your answer." She turned on her heel and walked away without another word.

Maokai watched her go, impassively. He noticed the young boy's blood from the illusion lingering in a puddle on the floor, though the body had been whisked away. The treant started to walk past it, but suddenly stopped and turned.

With slow, deliberate movements, he yanked off a chunk of his roots and laid them gingerly in the pool of blood. The roots began to absorb the blood, slowly at first, and then desperately, as if the blood could not be held back. The roots jumbled together into a mess of knots, and then a sapling emerged. It looked up at him with innocent eyes.

Another chance at life. Something inside the ancient tree moved, though what it was he had no idea.

He knew that someday he would return to stillness, but things would never be the same.

and this

Luxanna Crownguard

Lux runs briskly into the hallway, almost bursting with excitement. The light plays off the young girl’s golden hair, emitting a brightness that almost gives her an ethereal air. Her colorful attire and disarming smile would fool any ignorant passerby, but the ease with which she wears her battle armor would give any seasoned warrior pause.

She pauses for a moment to take in the scenery, her intelligent eyes darting around. An intricate baton darts rapidly between her fingers, conveying her impatience.

The truest opponent lies within. ... Lux fell to the ground, the repressed memories unforgivingly rushing back into her mind. Her parents delivering the news. Lux barricading herself in her room. The pain in her arms as they forcibly dragged her away from her home. Her hair draped across her face as she refused to look at her parents. The burn of her tears as she cried herself to sleep every night. The booming voices yelling at her to focus. Her screams as she cursed her family for doing this to her.

Then, her own voice echoing back at her, reciting the Justice Pledge alongside her fellow recruits. The comfort of re-reading The Measured Tread cover to cover countless times. The indoctrination of the new incoming class, led by Lux herself. The pride swelling in her heart as she marched forth under Demacia’s shining banner.

Say more than their backgrounds do, unlike Ekko. It's not hard to see Ekko's character, in fact it's pretty much barebones what it is.

Ekko

A prodigy from the rough streets of Zaun, EkkoSquare.png Ekko manipulates time to spin any situation to his advantage. Using his own invention, the Z-Drive Resonance.png Zero-Drive, he explores the branching possibilities of reality. As well as experimenting with multi-dimensional probability, Ekko spends his days running wild with the other lost children of Zaun. Though he revels in this freedom, when there's a threat to his friends, he'll endure anything to defend them. To the unknowing observer, Ekko accomplishes the impossible with ease, time and time again.

This tells us everything we know about Ekko. At no point are we given new information about this. We have 3 forms of media, a comic, a written blurb and a video, telling us the exact same information. We actually know nothing really particularly new except maybe he won't murder even a killer in cold blood (Why is he a part of the League then who knows), and the matter of fact is that what we do know about him is from the QA.

I didn't know Ekko lives with his parents, or that his weapon is a clockhand from Piltover that he modified, or how he made his Z-Drive or rather what drove him to make it (Unlike Vi who improvised on the spot her gauntlets). We don't have really anything expanding his character beyond what his background lore has given us, and therefore I don't really have much drive to care more about him.

When Ekko doesn't care about Janna, the woman who was a former orphan of Zaun who rose to prominence, left Zaun because she could not take their practices, joined Piltover and became a hextech scientist in order to directly compete with Zaun on the scientific front while being the mouthpiece against their unethical practices, and also pays for orphanages so the children aren't used in those scientific experiments, and all he says to her is "So how's the weather?", I think that's a bigger flaw on the part of the new lore when they're trying to create in-game character interactions (Which they should be and is a huge improvement over the old stuff!).

The old lore has a lot of problems, but part of it was the mystery of beings like Shaco. If you read the JoJ, you'd know that Shaco wasn't 2 yordles in a clown suit, but there is something dangerously offhinged about him, he hates authority and he does have his serious moods. Shaco's ploy is to act random while actually being calculating. Nocturne was admittedly one of the weaker champions, but there was some room to wiggle with him, much like any of the other champions even if some of it was weirdly written.

Grand Viper4 votes

Part 2: Concluding remarks. (Sorry, word count is a bitch)

Saying the new champions have more personality than the old ones I think is a false statement. I think what should be said is they have the potential to have more character than the old ones, which I believe is completely true.

Jinx has less personality than Shaco, she blows things up because of raisins. Shaco had the JoJ to help him and it did help him. Without it, yeah, he's as interesting a character as Jinx.

Before any theorycrafting is thrown at me, keep in mind, any theorycrafting you do for Jinx you would have to put the same amount of effort for Shaco to make him a legitimate character. The reason behind this is because anything and everything about Jinx is pretty much conjecture outside of her background lore and her music video, nothing is confirmed.

Old Karthus had a good 3 or so articles dedicated to him and his development. This was replaced by death lover Karthus for the reason that he was too "mysterious", and yet we have Evelynn and Vlad who really, who knows what's up with them.

Rek'sai is literally "SKREEEEEEEEEEE" and that's the character end of story, wrapped up in a box and put away nicely. Can they do more with it? Sure, but we have yet to see.

Skarner is now 3 sentences and guards his hobo hole in the middle of the desert.

Ezreal, with lines like:

"It's all skill!" "I'll handle it!" "No problem!" "Time to strike!" "Sounds dangerous... I'm in!" "Time to get our hands dirty."

has been given the new lore of:

The intrepid young adventurer Ezreal has explored some of the most remote and abandoned locations on Runeterra. During an expedition to the buried ruins of ancient Shurima, he recovered an amulet of incredible mystical power. Likely constructed to be worn by one of the Ascended, the enormous talisman nonetheless fit snugly upon his arm, amplifying his raw sorcerous skill to such an extent that he's gained the reputation of a hero, much to his embarrassment.

which is the very definition of a disconnect.

Can the new lore be used to better champions, old and new, and characterize them better? Absolutely. Are we seeing that? I don't think so, not yet.

Jarrito2323 votes

Riot involves artists and content creators now in several new segments. There is an art spotlight, community collab, and a show called Allchat involving all of this. They just recently made an event that unites THE ENTIRE PLAYER FANBASE towards goals.

Speaking about the lore, new lore is coming in a month or so. You can't just yell and scream at a writer, and expect them to shit out some story. Good writing is difficult and it takes time. Everything that I have seen from new champs and lore events, has been pretty good. The stories behind Ekko, Bard, etc. are really well thought-out. The champions don't feel like flat characters anymore. i.e. Gangplank = arg im a pirate lol

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/khkWEbWQ-what-the-hell-is-the-lore-team-getting-paid-for?comment=005b

Dextix LT4 votes

You wnt to tell me stories behind ekko and bard were good? If you are talking about those cute videos then no. These videos showed nothing. All i understood from ekkos video is that he steals time, and all i understood from bard video is that he is some cosmic bullshit. Thats it. THese videos are not stories. Just dare to tell me that bard isnt a flat character, just like gp. I find more character in GP than i will ever find in bard.

Also, these events that "unite the entire fanbase" has nothing to do with lore. THis even we have now is related in no way to lore, i will even say as far that riot fcked up even with this event. Stupidly making it during steam sales and E3, perfectly knowing that this will make people to get less points.

Im reading ekkos lore now on in game client. Guess what. It is one paragraph. That video they made before gave us no new lore or information about ekko, one paragprah of story doesnt cut it. This already shows how lazy is the lore team.

You dont need any departments to create lore, yoou dont need any deparments to create a map, you dont need any departments to create ACTUAL STORY FOR THE GAME!

I will repeat again, SOON(tm) wont cut it! We are playing for over 8 months without knowing what the ehell are we playing, tell me, what the hell is summoners rift now? Dont you think that should have beeen their first goal when they stupidly for no reason retconed all the lore? When for no reason they changed trundles lore for the worse, when they took so many champs and just slammed down them into freljord when they could have stayed independant with their own stories?

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