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It's Time -You- Listen Riot:

ModIts Yuu and Mi·2/18/2014, 4:40:59 AM·1,727 votes·156,819 views

I'm going to make this as fair to both sides as possible:

We don't like the Community Beta.

No seriously. Look at ANY post about it not made by staff posters. I don't think I have literally seen another that has been positive. Some have been neutral I think?

A large, large majority of the player base flat out DOES NOT like this.

However, it's unfair to say there is nothing to be gained from the hard work and effort put here.

Just learn from the mistakes.

-1. Learn from the mistakes on the forums. NO ONE, and I do mean -NO ONE-, likes the forum mods there. AT ALL. This account is actually banned on the forums, and you know why? I asked GD how their day was. Just like Xelnath, a Rioter. A forum mod closed the thread, and I later made a thread asking about it. That was closed. And I was permabanned. The forum mods commonly move threads to places they do not belong, they ban people who do not deserve it, and do not ban people who do. I have proof if it needs to be seen.

I understand -some- of the logic. If there are flat out forum rules enforced, people can toy around with them, yada yada, disputes and such, I get it. I've heard why Rioters have unofficially said why there are no rules.

Now let's look at other forums.

Smogon, for Pokemon. Absolutely no trolls. Threads are serious business. Rules are posted, in place, enforced. However, there is less fun there, so I wouldn't encourage that model.

World of Warcraft. People have harmless fun in the harmless fun sections, otherwise, they are serious. There are forum rules, and they are enforced. The mods are very clear about what is allowed. Don't say you don't follow this game, you hired Ghostcrawler, and several other designers from WoW.

There are others too.

Now let's look here. People make troll threads, p0rn threads, etc. And some are caught immediately, some aren't. Meanwhile some make legitimate threads and get punished. The biggest issue is that the mods are not clear about it. They don't post why ("You broke the Summoner's Code"... Okay...), they don't say WHY a thread is closed or locked, and they don't say why someone is banned.

Just. Own. Up to it. It is FLAWED.

-2. Learn from the mistakes of the Beta.

People mainly hate one thing here: The "popularity rule". The community as a whole has a very rational fear that popular posts will get the top, and everything else won't see the light of day. True or not, this is a very realistic fear. This needs to be addressed. You absolutely cannot fight this, because this is how we feel-- it doesn't matter how you feel, because quite frankly, you cater to us. And our feelings matter more, because we're the ones with the money, and we're the ones you make this game for.

I'm sorry if this comes off harsh, but quite frankly it has to be.

Your forum mods are TERRIBLE. But the rest of the forums are fine, except the no avatars/signatures, and the crashes that happen too much.

And this Beta is too popularity-driven. On top of this, people also find it confusing, often enough. Make it easier to read, maybe make a section that's a welcome one, for new users.

And better yet, why don't you go back onto YOUR forums, and ask US what you can do better with the Beta. Don't listen to the "delete it" posts, but SERIOUSLY take in what we say. ASK. US. Not you. Us.

(Post-statement, also, the Beta "updates" section is nice, something like this with notes in it could be nice for moderation, for the staff to notify a poster of why a thread was moved, deleted, closed, etc).

I understand you do not like GD. Funny thing, most of GD has a love-hate relationship. But believe it or not, you can fix it.

But you need to quite this piece of sh** superiority complex, and actually listen to us.

This may sound demanding, but face it: Your customers aren't happy. Look at your posts about it. Downvoted to oblivion.

That says something.

Now. Please. From someone who actually cares about the Forums, the direction the Beta is going, and Riot Games (no seriously, I do love you guys, you're just going the wrong direction here), please get back on those "toxic" forums, and talk with us.

Thank you.

534 Comments

AnonTwo2/18/2014, 4:58:46 AM216 votes

Personally, i feel if the community feels this way, they should prove it in number.

Given the nature of "Reddit" all the community has to do is this:

Log in one time, open this thread, and upvote it.

If it works as they say it does, this thread should overtake the first slot on the forums.

That's all i'm saying.

Without outside forces, this thread should be able to beat out every other thread here.

C9 Midian2/18/2014, 4:43:55 AM113 votes

Agreed. This is my 1st time posting on the beta forums. Its to much like reddit and we all know reddit blows chunks! I dont want to be using this crap

Give us a real vbulletine stlye board!

RiotKrylhos2/20/2014, 11:28:50 AM65 votes

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to express your opinions and frustrations.

I understand you're frustrated with moderation practices, and we couldn't agree more that there are serious gaps that cause unnecessary frustrations. Moderation practices are undergoing improvements, particularly with the full feedback loop (getting players messaging as to why an action was taken, and making sure that each action that's taken has an easy to verify reason for the action).

I'm also really happy this thread got so much traction. As one of the developers on this platform, I couldn't agree more with the sentiment that what you see now is inadequate for a viable community replacement. Sound strange? Keep reading.

What makes me super happy is the fact that this highly relevant thread from our passionate players dominated the "Hot" sorting strategy. It is a small proof of concept for raising visibility on important topics that mean a lot to our players. The reality is that this thread would continue to need to get bumped in order for visibility to be raised and maintained if this kind of attention was desired within vBulletin, and even then, there's probability introduced that other threads

Something kinda interesting here is that I agree with most opinions expressed (hard to get traction as a latecomer, large threads with lots of comments can get hairy to consume, circlejerk, etc). We knew when we opened this up early on that these problems would exist. We also knew that we didn't want to solve these problems without hearing what our players had to say about them first. We're ready to start making larger shifts to make this platform unique and easily usable, and it must be done off of constructive criticisms and suggestions that are provided.

I also believe that we have a great opportunity within this platform to conquer those challenges. This platform is much more than this current website you see and interact with, and has an extraordinary amount of flexibility. Aside from the comments on news articles, and the various community contests that have been ran on this platform, it's capable of providing both a "reddit" experience and a typical bulletin board experience. At this point, we're looking for the right balance and blend because neither are perfect, but both have qualities that we all value.

On a side note, something that's coming next week is the option to easily toggle between traditional "flat" comments and the nested tree. I think it'd be awesome to discover how everyone in this thread feels about that experience when it's out.

ManDudeMcDudeman2/18/2014, 5:12:36 AM53 votes

Honestly, in my opinion, all GD needs to be a real, productive forum for discussion is better, more visible moderation.

They don't -need- the Community Beta if they want a less toxic environment. Riot may be looking to Reddit as a model for their beta, but they don't seem to understand why Reddit is less toxic (on the surface) than GD:

Reddit has clear, visible rules, clear, visible mods, and clear, visible punishments for breaking those rules, alongside reasoning as to why a punishment was dealt.

This can all be fixed, without formatting a new community outlet, by simply getting some mods who do their damned job correctly, and have presence in the community. If a thread is moved, they should post in it, explaining why. If a thread is closed, there should be a post and an explanation. If a poster is banned, there should be a valid reason on the ban screen, that's not "you ave violated the Summoner's Code". These are all basic things that almost every web forum has. GD is a large community, and it is a daunting task, but it's definitely doable with a small, dedicated team of moderators.

Right now, moderation seems random, if not completely absent. Threads get closed at random, regardless of whether or not they deserved it, along with thread movements and bans. It honestly feels like there are bots or scripts set up that just automatically dole out a response, with no human element whatsoever.

I think Riot is being too hasty with this Community Beta. They don't need to make a new platform for discussion; they just need to take care of and maintain the one they have.

I'm going to try, though. I'm going to give Riot the data they need, and I'm going to use the Community Beta, and give it a chance for a week. Afterward, I'll compile what I like and dislike about it, and make a thread on both platforms about it, to gather as much attention as I can about what can be fixed on both platforms.

Here's an Olaf for reading this damned far down my crazy-ass rant. Olaf

Iron Angel 2k32/18/2014, 6:45:15 AM27 votes

If I wanted to post on Reddit, I'd post on Reddit.

-Singed

Zalkreai2/18/2014, 5:18:43 AM23 votes

Instead of trying to make this a community based forum, why don't you (Riot) turn it into the development area as that is clearly what you want to use it for. As it currently is, this community beta thing isn't really conducive to a positive community at all. I'm a forum lurker and GD does have its good and bad side, but the fact remains that the COMMUNITY is there.

Rule 342/18/2014, 7:45:48 AM21 votes

Speaking as someone whose responses from Riot support about a random forum permaban was "Deal with it," and "We told you exactly why you were permabanned even though we didn't," I'm inclined to agree with this. The mods on the current forums are what allow GD to be as inherently vile as it is, not the userbase or the format. When you have no one to keep an insanely large group of people in check, what follows is absolute chaos, and I don't think I need to point out to anyone just how bad GD is right now in that regard.

If GD has actual, proper moderation, there is almost no need for a new platform. Almost every single thing that Riot hates about GD right now can be filtered out with proper, consistent moderation, and yet that's the one thing they refuse to give us.

Vashous2/18/2014, 4:55:40 AM20 votes

yeh.... this layout just feels very foreign. I feel like an old person who just can't get with the times when I am in this thing... and im 25.

Iustis2/18/2014, 7:53:25 AM14 votes

Honestly, this feels like a waste of time. The current forums seemed half done but still have potential as the FEK team has clearly shown. Why leave them as such to just copy the Redit style which favours popularity over content? That model would be easily abused by anyone with a bot army to upvote themselves meaning this actually solves nothing that finishing the actual forums couldn't have. If anything it just splits the community with two seemingly half hearted ways to communicate instead.

Hopefully this is just a short lived experiment.

Arc Noir2/18/2014, 8:03:16 AM13 votes

What Riot needs to do to their forums is finally take proper control of the damned thing. It's like a bike careening down a twisting hill while you're wearing a blindfold. We need mods who will openly reprimand the community for behaving like it does, he needs to file proper warning and gain control of the situation with modbreaks and discussion, along with a firm affirmation of the rules.

Bad behavior will quell as people get a better grasp of what is okay and what isn't if the moderators PROPERLY ENFORCE THE RULES in a public manner. The trolls will be banned and everyone will be happy.

I think one of the problems is Riot will take 12 steps around a problem than face it head on, they spent so much time and resources just to make this similar to reddit because it's "easier" than how discussions are currently managed.

It's not easier, it's not better, It's different. And different isn't going to fix the problem, the only thing that's going to breed from a reddit style is vote bombing one way or the other. Smurf vote bombing, bandwagon vote bombing. Pretty much people can make whatever they want just disappear under a pile of downvotes.

Being snarky about the entire situation and getting sarcastic with your own userbase is just harmful to the entire image and they should just stop.

We need maturity, professionalism and cooperation to tackle such a big problem, Stop trying to push it under the carpet.

Pomfrey2/18/2014, 4:48:09 PM13 votes

I noticed something interesting, and that's that there have been no posts on the Live Balance section...at all. LVN posted a lengthy, informative, and detailed essay on Yasuo, it's sat on top of that section since it was posted, but there are NO redposts on that section, period.

Soooo....what's the point?

JackieLane2/18/2014, 5:27:10 AM12 votes

In my opinion, the popularity system is certainly a problem. I might see it working with which threads show up first (and since we have a button to sort them by date, it's not so bad), but with the answers in a single thread, it only makes it more confusing. I'm always looking through threads trying to find the new comments, which risk being forgotten at the bottom, while the first comments get more and more upvotes just because they're the first we read. Replies should always be sorted by parents and dates only, to avoid this.

I do like a couple things about this beta, though: the search button working for all posts and not a single "sub-community" makes it much easier to find things and should allow us to have less repeat threads, and the way it shows when there are new messages or replies to our own comments is quite clear.

Just work on that popularity system please. The way it is now, I'm pretty sure it's going to backfire when the whole community gets on it.

Letler2/18/2014, 2:33:05 PM12 votes

I prefer the reddit format. Regular forums suffer from endless bumping, which can bring poor conversations back to the front with inflated replies and inflated views because someone just wants to be heard. Upvote/downvote makes popular things rise up and unpopular things fall down.

NeonSpotlight2/20/2014, 4:00:00 PM11 votes

I skimmed through some of this post but couldn't get over this sentance right here:

A large, large majority of the player base flat out DOES NOT like this.

A large, large majority of the player base flat out DOES NOT care. That's the truth and it always will be. People who hate the community beta are a small, self-perpetuating (echo effect) vocal minority. Despite how much you want to try and make it seem like all these people don't like it or as much as you want to try and keep using terms like we the truth is that the only people who protest are those that are already vested in the forums and have a biased point of view.

Arkna2/18/2014, 5:48:47 PM11 votes

Here is the sum of the arguments against the community beta.

  1. Upvoting/Downvoting. The concept of post visibility being determined by popularity is a flawed one. Someone who takes the time to write a well though out, but controversial/dissenting, opinion deserves the same visibility that a popular opinion does. Under this system, off topic and irrelevant posts, as well as "bait" gets shoved to the bottom, but posts that mindlessly echo the popular sentiment get shoved to the top. Neither of these types of posts have anything to add to the discussion, but one gets more visibility than a well thought out opinion, which is just wrong.

  2. Nested discussions are a pain to navigate. They work really well for carrying on multiple 1 on 1 conversations, but fall short of the mark for trying trying to locate new information relevant to the topic at hand. Krylhos is assuring us that you are working on some fixes for this, and to this I say please and thank you.

  3. Lack of moderation is a pain on GD, but will kill the Community Beta. Poorly made topics and known forum trolls are a nuisance, but you can bump a good topic and ignore poor posts in your threads. If we end up with a "one board fits all" system here, there will never be a chance to find a decent conversation. If you don't want to deal with shitposters and trolls, you need moderators.

Nyrone2/18/2014, 7:44:27 AM9 votes

Agreed, I hate this place for that sole reason (Popularity).

J0HN C3N42/19/2014, 8:03:53 PM4 votes

Popularity Rule Question, Is there any expiration time? Like lets say, it's 2 weeks old, even though it's fairly active, it falls below "newer, popular threads" at some point it just simply not re-appearing in the front page unless "stickied" like older forums?

Or maybe cap the "popular post" amount shown in the front page at maybe 5? anything else over that will just be newer discussions? Idk, I think it could be a good fix to avoid the "reddit trap"

Lainchan2/18/2014, 7:08:27 AM3 votes

I think the Reddit format is great for balance conversations and whatnot. When an actual conversation gets rolling, it can help mods immediately see and respond to popular feedback. HOWEVER. I think the problem arises with the fact that TOPICS can be upvoted and downvoted. This can and will lead to unpopular conversation topics downvoted and never discussed. We've all seen threads downvoted into oblivion for no particular reason on General Discussion, only here it will make it so that those topics are unable to be seen. Not every topic of discussion is going to be super popular, but that doesn't make them less important to address.

Bunny Killer2/20/2014, 6:03:36 PM1 votes

I cant find the red post in this thread

Graiskye10/11/2014, 7:34:32 PM1 votes

Boards are awesome, and who made the OP the voice of the LOL community. I dont see all these threads wher people are hating the boards, in fact this is th3e firest one, so aside from small handful of disgruntled GD'rs, things seem to be going well. General Discusssion was a cesspool of retards Im sorry that is what it was and what they always devolve into, how about the thread that the OP was 2 pages of Hentai porn, yea that was a really awesome thread, miss that one...not. The old forums were just that old, antiquadated, and no longet able to really stand up to the size of community this game generates, the new Boards on the other hand can stand up, and in the long run the OP will probabaly come too love them and he'll turn hypocrite and start flaming people who naysay the boards, its just how life works.