Season 5 Jungle makes me not want to play any more

Kikirino··10 votes·3,110 views

I have played for almost 5 years. I played Jungle > Top > Fill the last two seasons ending Gold 1 this year. I used to love jungling. You have the power to snowball your entire team. You influence the entire map. You create pressure, get your team kills, give carries buffs/dragon, and deny the enemy carries their buffs. It is so much fun having such a noticeable impact on a match.

However, this Season's jungle is the sole reason I have not touched rank yet. Riot has admitted it is not finished yet. They expect us to compete and climb in an unfinished role. On top of that the new jungle camps make early game hell on most champions' health and mana late game. Take Mao as example; he might have the sustain/tank to survive early jungle camps safely but mid/late game he either spends most of his mana on one camp or wastes a ton of time clearing it. This has the jungle champion pool so fucking restricted.

Let's keep going though. How about the 100g price increase for first smite upgrade. Sounds good in theory: If a jungler happens to get first blood they can no longer base and start off with upgraded smite and snowball out of control. Great... except that hurt EVERY SINGLE JUNGLE CHAMP in the unlikely scenario that they get first blood instead of just nerfing the problem champions. Say I pick Zac jungle and get first blood and get upgraded smite. Awesome! I am now MAYBE on par with current top jungle picks with machete. But wait! I still lack the snowball potential they have. So... what was solved here? Top picks can't snowball harder. What was hurt? Everything that is not top pick. How about you nerf the problem champs instead of the ENTIRE FUCKING POOL! Every single champion you pick in jungle now has a riskier and less rewarding first clear. Doesn't matter if you are top tier or trash tier. Why? We are now spending 100 more gold on an upgrade instead of wards and pots for ganks. You know, those things we are expected to do.

Let's keep digging shall we? If you have lost interest you are free to leave. We will continue without you. Dragon now gives

  1. 6% AD and AP
  2. +15% damage to structures
  3. +5% movement speed
  4. +15% damage to minions and monsters
  5. Doubles all previous bonuses and your attacks burn for 150 true damage over 5 seconds (180 second uptime).

Again, these buffs sound good but then you realize that these buffs benefit your carries more than you (but not till later and only if they are ahead... 6% is not going to make or break any lane in the early levels), don't really help you in the jungle (that place where only a small handful thrive...) until 4th kill, are late game oriented and your goal is to get your team to snowball early and in no way benefit tank jungles. Yeah... those sad fuckers still exist. You just never see them because they got the shaft. Think about it. Who does buffs one two and four benefit more? Someone who gets Warrior enchant or Juggernaut? Add 6% ad/15% damage to an item that gives ad and pen or 6% ad/15% damage to... health... 6%/15% x 0 = 0 benefit. Sure that 6% hits your base numbers but if you don't add much to those base number then you are only getting 6% of your base ad/ap whereas current top picks get 6% base stats and the damage items they build.

Riot says they want to add variety to the jungle. GOOD! I want that as well. But everything you are doing contradicts your desire to add diversity in both builds and champion picks. WW was doing too much with Skirmisher's so we better nerf... Skirmisher's? So... nerf everyone that used that item instead of the problem champion? Poacher's knife... Why would anyone buy that? Camps take longer to kill and hurt more than ever. I am sure your best bet is to fight those buffed camps in enemy territory. Sure, the enemy jungle probably has vision control and his team is more likely to get to you before your team does but that is soooo worth 20g. Only need to steal 5 camps to cover that first upgrade cost! That removes half of your jungle item paths.

Diversity and variety does not mean either pick one of 5 champions or be gimped with a subpar pick. It does not mean nerf the entire jungle pool because a few of those 5 must picks were too good. It does not mean to make sure dragon buffs more or less ignore tanks. Believe it or not, some of us loved the jungle and these changes make some of us hate what we used to enjoy. Believe it or not, some of us enjoy champions like Elise, Zac, Sejuani, Rammus, Shyvana, Skarner and Cho'gath.

14 Comments

Shinjusuke3 votes

I feel the same way you do about a lot of what you've said, it's almost as if none of the Rioters on the balance team are junglers (scratch that: It's as if every Rioter on the balance team is a Lee Sin main).

I'm hoping a couple months into the ranked season, things will have improved, but it might just be blind optimism at this point..

Thresh Outta Fux2 votes

I like playing Nautilus in the jungle. I've found that timing your health pot and your red smite based on your Second Wind mastery buff to be able to finish the entire jungle with just one pot, and correct smites.

However, this is ridiculously annoying and slows my jungle clear because i have to stop and speed up for this exact timer.

But back on topic, this is absolutely ridiculous. You're punishing a class of 30 or 40, based on the actions of 2 or 3. Stupid.

Trostani1301301 votes

at the same time, the early jungle hurts so much that squishy junglers can't do much either.

I think Riot is trying to change the jungler as a role with this new jungle. For instance, some players no longer take buff camps first, and instead go for mini golems for the stun on the buff camps. So the buff camp you would get 2nd in S4 as your third camp is now your first buff camp but still the third camp so you have smite again. This slows the jungle down, but also can prevent camp stealing early.

Jungling still goes for the same goals, but different ways. Also, dragon buff helps the other team members more because the jungler is in essence a support role (imho), that's why tank junglers are the best (imho). However, this slower jungling with less buff camps and no leash hurts slow junglers, kicking some out. Now champs need to be broken to be a good junglers, there are no more broken junglers, just broken champs being good junglers.

At the same time, this kind of reflects the Summoner's Fist, does it not? the rugged unknown between lanes is a place only few dare to inhabit. What doesn't make sense is why tank jungler's don;t work anymore, I also love tank junglers (item 3070 Zac). I'm sorry that you do not like hte new jungle, I'm trying to be optimistic

P.S. Razorbeaks got a huge buff.

Bemapon1 votes

Tank jungles dont work anymore? I find Zac so easy to jungle in the new jungle. He is one of my main junglers now.

Kikirino2 votes

I don't want to sound mean but just because something works in Bronze does not mean it is good overall. Zac has one of the lowest winrates right now because he doesn't work right now.

Bemapon2 votes

Yeah I am technically bronze right now. I was Silver 2 last season though and Zacs winrate is not because he doesnt work in the jungle its because he generally does not work in solo que. He relies on his team to do damage for the most part.

Chessburger1 votes

You can win with everything in low elo jungle just by being efficient and thinking 2 steps ahead. People don't usually do that so it's easy to work with a tank jungler. The higher you go the more actively the enemy jungler/team is punishing you for picking such a champ by forcing your hand before you'd like in order to exploit your weak points of the game. So picking a champ that's good at everything to force such events is a lot more viable. I hope that makes sense. Good luck on your climb!

Yormaughm2 votes

{quoted}

I think Riot is trying to change the jungler as a role with this new jungle.

This right here is the truth. They are trying to make the jungle a glorified support role, and not just another person on the team who can, if need be, become a carry. I don't have a problem with this, but most junglers do.

Problem is since Solo queue is a thing, and carrying is the only thing Solo queue ever incentivizes (out of necessity) people who used to jungle refuse to accept that they are no longer carries and have abandoned the role entirely. (This is the same reason that before the S5 jungle changes, support was by far the least preferred role.)

Solo queue Leauge of Legends is and always will be 5 people competing against each other to win a team fight against another 5 people doing the same thing. This is idiotic, but it's a one sentence description of ranked Solo queue until at least Platinum. That is of course, unless you don't play Solo queue and play in a real team with real time communication, like the pro players actually do. Then anything can work because Teamwork is OP and your jungler doesn't need to be a carry like they pretty much do in Solo queue. (Even though pro players only pick the carry junglers anyway, I think this is more because of the fact that those particular junglers RekSai , JarvanIV , and LeeSin just happen to also be the most versatile and therefore beneficial to the team for reasons other than damage and carry potential.)

Tanky junglers like Sejuani , Nautilus , Rammus and even Volibear are very strong right now, but since they're more supporty, they don't "get fed" and can't "carry." So players don't want none of it. Even though if they were being played right, it would be their opponents who didn't want none of it. In fact I've seen every one of these champions except Rammus used as a support recently. S3 was the year of the AP mage support, this year might just become the year of the tank support, or better yet, the ADC/AP Mage bot lane, and tank support in the jungle. There isn't anything wrong with this, it's just not what anyone is used to.

Assassin/carry junglers became virtually the only junglers in S4 and Riot hated that because it completely eliminated 30-ish champions from viability. The problem is though that in any system that uses sets of different numbers, only one number will always be higher than all the other numbers and players will always figure this out. Assassin junglers were the highest numbers in S4 so they nerfed them, but then they either didn't/couldn't nerf them enough without completely eviscerating the champion, or they were simply replaced by the next highest numbers, and Riot realized this pattern would never change. In response they tried to change the thing that caused people to pick those champions by redefining what the jungle was and why it matters. Thing is, if they allowed junglers to snowball like before, the old patterns would immediately take over. But since "ganky, snowbally junglers" eventually became pretty much the only meta that players who jungled ever picked (possibly because most of these people didn't main jungle and wanted to maintain their "carry" playstyle of the other lanes' roles in Solo queue,) this change rubbed most of them the wrong way.

Riot did actually do a good job in diversifying the jungle. The 4 different Tier 2 jungle items that all build off the same starter, and the 4 different Tier 3 enchants and the fact that you now have 2 smites, that do different things, and each jungle camp gives different buffs, added tons of diversity to the jungle. The problem is though that every jungler immediately went "ok so how do I do the thing I always did in this new system?" They did this because they (understandably) didn't want to start over at square 1 learning a new system, they were good at something and now it's gone. This sucks. But if they would try to wrap their head around the new jungle, they might get good at that too.

For the record I do agree with the OP. Jungling is not fun right now and some champions just can't reliably do it anymore Evelynn and that sucks. LeeSin JarvanIV and RekSai aren't crowding out the jungle because they're the only ones who can snowball and carry, they're crowding out the jungle because they're the only ones who can do that *** AND EVERYTHING ELSE TOO.***

Riot thinks that versatility makes champions "healthy" but it really really doesn't. If they want to fix the problem they should leave the jungle where it is (it's very diverse right now actually,) and probably revert the last 100g change, and then shoehorn those 3 champions into picking a role by removing versatility from their kits. It's in no way unfair or even biased of me to say that either because every other jungler is basically already in an exact, very specific, non-versatile spot, and as long as that remains true, any changes to the jungle will be irrelevant. Will people who main those champs bitch? Yes, but it's far better than having every single jungler EXCEPT those mains ragequit because you're trying to balance 40 champions and an entire game around 3 champions that can literally do everything.

TL:DR I like the jungle changes because they did provide diversity, but the community doesn't want diversity, they want to press the win button in champion select and it doesn't feel like you can do that in the jungle anymore unless you pick one of 3 champions. This was never what the jungle changes intended, they were intended to emphasize the "teamwork" aspect of the game by making junglers more like supports, but players don't want to support they want to carry. Riot should have realized this and simply should have said when they made the changes: "We don't want junglers to be seen as carries anymore, it's our game, deal with it," and then promply removed versatility from Lee, J4, and Rek'Sai's kits, bringing them down to the level that every other jungler is already on, instead of making the jungle even less rewarding and STILL not doing anything to increase the viability of any junglers who aren't those 3.

Bemapon1 votes

I dont play Rammus or Cho'gath but all the others I actually find much easier to jungle in the new jungle. The only problem I have with Shyvana is running out of camps to clear. Zacs passive sustain makes him able to do a full clear from lvl 1. Skarner Zac Sejuani and Shyvana all have enough AOE to be able to clear quite quickly.

Also item 3713 makes it a lot easier to sustain if you are having trouble. I dont tend to use it, I normally get either item 3715 oritem 3706 .

Personally I think you are looking at it wrong. The junglers you say are the top picks are the carry junglers. Zac Sejuani and Skarner are more of utility junglers. They should be more focused on snowballing the carries than on snowballing themselves.

I dont see why you think Shyvana is weaker. Her ganks are not spectacular, but they wernt in the old jungle either. She farms then walks out of the jungle a monster. From personal experience she relies on her lanes to not lose terribly.

I have jungled many champions. Including some that really should never be junglers. Even these unconventional picks i have never really had too much trouble in the new jungle.

Except as vlad. Dont jungle him please. Its not a fun experience.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

The main problem is that ANY laner has more impact in the game. Jungler is the hunger boy of lol roles. No cash, no exp, has to put some money in so he can jungle and won't matter at all late game.. Yeah... Start the game with a handicap. I used to like and main jungle. Now I fill any other roles. Hell , I played games as the jungler that the lanes go kills that any jungle interference would result ina double /triple kill, while I was afk farming.

Jungle is only effective VS the people that won't use trinket/upgrade it and vision wards.

Xtremey1 votes

If anything i feel the jungle is in a better spot right now due t the smite swapping. this way tanks can get trailblazer and once the have enough gold to finish juggernaut, can go back and swap for chilling smite.

blueberrypancake1 votes

If you hate jungling then go top. Its not that hard. Champs like Jarvan, Lee, Cho'gath (I've had mild success in Ranked, however I think Cho mid is a ton fun). Zac. Rammus (who needs tp when we got homeguards xD), Sejuani (who i personally think is fine in new jungle), Elise (originally was a solo laner and deals % health) can all played top.

Daddy McNuggets1 votes

The problem the new rito map has is that if you get the first dragon, just guessing, you're going to have a 70% chance to win unless you get a dc feeder flamer or troll. I hate how riot has made the new rift all surrounded by dragon.

Newb the Legend1 votes

Surprisingly enough, I like this jungle better than before, but I also dislike it for some reasons. It's kinda a love/hate relationship.

I really like that every camp has buffs that can be gained, I also like the bigger variety that junglers can get, I honestly keep my jungling items instead of selling them in the end now.

What I hate. . . . . That the chickens take me by the hips and do what they wish with me every time. This isn't Legend of Zelda, Riot. Please.

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