Riot, can you just stop pretending like you care?

Niyumi·Dec 6, 2015·6 votes·926 views

Seriously, just admit that you actually don't give a damn about balance, your game, or anything. If you did, the game would not be in the state it's been for years. Just come out and admit that you don't care, and just want money -- at least then your game would become much less popular and people might develop a MOBA and actually care about it -- or at the very least, they'd branch out to other games and make them playable.

Would sure be nice if just one company could prove me wrong and show me that gaming isn't dead -- but I guess that'll never happen. Thanks, society.

Go hump that diamond-lined wallet, Riot. I know you love to.

24 Comments

MasterSomethingDec 6, 20152 votes

Thing is, they do care. They are just being a bit too ambitious right now. Maybe they do need to bring things down a bit, but if man never took risks, where would we be now?

NiyumiDec 6, 20151 votes

Thing is, when you decide to go F2P / start an F2P game, you're pretty much saying you absolutely do not care about your game or its community at all.

In a P2P game, you make money by keeping players happy with your game. So you make a lot of quality, engaging content and continually add to it so that people don't get bored. There's a little bit of time gating, but it's nothing unbearable, and the rest of the game is fun enough that it isn't a big deal anyway (most of the time).

In an F2P game, content and player retention are no longer your primary goals. In an F2P game, your income is based on how gullible people are / how much you can shoehorn people into paying without making them quit. This means that the base game will be so incredibly grindy / ugly / boring that you're all but forced to pay money to have the real experience. Since content doesn't make you money, it goes on the back burner of the back burner, and any content you do give out is both half-assed and just not that great. Then, to entice people to buy skins/cash shop boosts/costumes/etc, you make the game very easy to pick up and play, and very easy to win -- so that someone who comes in and pays money to unlock stuff early can just straight up win. People don't consider that "pay to win," but it's pretty damn close in my book.

Just a horrible business philosophy for horribly greedy companies that don't actually care about their game or gaming in general -- they just want the money.

So, no, they don't care. I can tell you that much just from looking at their business model.

MasterSomethingDec 6, 20151 votes

Just because someone starts a F2P game, does NOT mean they want your fucking money. You know, there are many MMOs I will admit are a bit grindy (Maplestory, Wildstar, Skyforge) but they are still pumping out new content, and show great interest in the community. Don't be so biased.

NiyumiDec 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Just because someone starts a F2P game, does NOT mean they want your fucking money...

Sorry, but that's EXACTLY what it means. F2P is far, far more profitable than P2P, and that's why it's so popular with companies these days.

You know, there are many MMOs I will admit are a bit grindy (Maplestory, Wildstar, Skyforge) but they are still pumping out new content, and show great interest in the community.

Ever think that the "interest" they show is just good PR? I can tell you that they don't give a damn about you or anything about their game, so long as you throw money at them. I have a friend who works at NCsoft / Anet (GW2 -- and NCsoft owns Wildstar too, so it'll be the same thing there) in Bellevue, and he says that each team has a quota for the cash shop that they have to meet each month. If they don't meet that quota, they face fines and/or being fired. So they will -literally- drop everything they're doing to fill that quota -- which means no content work being done. That's how every F2P company is, even if they don't tell you about it.

Don't be so biased.

Bias has nothing to do with it. I know people in gaming, I've even interned in gaming, and I've watched countless games / companies turn to garbage because of F2P, DLC and every other scam you can trick people into.

Until Riot proves me wrong, they're just as bad as any other F2P company -- and so far, they've only been getting worse.

MasterSomethingDec 6, 20151 votes

Alright, you gave one example. Tell me more. Because I don't believe you in all honesty. If companies didn't care about me, I wouldn't play. Ever heard of Toontown Remastered? Free to play, all made by the love of one game of their childhood.

NiyumiDec 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Alright, you gave one example. Tell me more.

Sorry, out of developer friends. Try again next time. ^^

Because I don't believe you in all honesty. If companies didn't care about me, I wouldn't play. Ever heard of Toontown Remastered? Free to play, all made by the love of one game of their childhood.

If you honestly think the companies care about you, then you need a reality check. :P If you didn't throw money at them, they wouldn't even care whether or not you existed. They care about your money, not you. That's the unfortunate truth of things.

I remember Toontown, but I've never heard of a remake of it.

MasterSomethingDec 7, 20151 votes

Toontown Remastered, I haven't touched it but good friends of mine say it's a godly nostalgia trip. Though, let me correct you there: They care about me enough to try and get me to spend money on their product. If I enjoy their product and they treat me, the costumer, well enough, there is more chance I will buy the next game. So technically, you are both wrong and right. Still, I really don't think what you said about ALL F2Ps not caring is true. There are some out there, as I've already listed, that show at least some level of care.

NiyumiDec 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

... They care about me enough to try and get me to spend money on their product... and they treat me well enough,

They don't care about you. I'm sorry you don't believe that, but they really don't. All you are to them is a number with money. If your money goes to them, mission accomplished. If not, they will do the absolute bare minimum to make you want to pay them, and nothing more. This is why most F2P games are half-assed and just generally not very good; they just don't care.

So technically, you are both wrong and right. Still, I really don't think what you said about ALL F2Ps not caring is true. There are some out there, as I've already listed, that show at least some level of care.

Just the fact that they went F2P shows they care nothing for their game. I've done work in gaming, and F2P is just the worst business model there is -- the only thing close to it is the whole scam that is DLC. Once you go F2P, you basically throw your game in the toilet, pull in a bunch of business majors, and figure out how to best milk people for their money while keeping them entertained just enough to keep playing and paying. Beyond that... they don't care. Sure the people who actually made the game may care about it and their players, but they're forced by producers and publishers to destroy their game and instate paywalls and focus on crap shop content over real content and all that.

Honestly, the real culprit is the producer / publisher. Most devs are actually nice people and genuinely care about their product. it's just the sleazy, greedy suits that run the show that need to be pummeled and chased out of town.

MasterSomethingDec 7, 20151 votes

Yea, the DEVELOPERS care, I was trying to make the point the entire time. If you were talking about the producer/publisher, yea, then most of those just need money. However, F2P is can either be very bad- such as with a few Mobile examples Mobile, or very good, downright tricking people into getting stuff they would never usually bye. I'll give an example. You have a 3DS? Whether you do or not, Nintendo released the "Nintendo Badge Arcade". Completely free to play, and they will even give you free tries. Now, you can pay a dollar for five tries. This sounds like a rip off- Some silly badges to decorate a home screen I might never even pay attention to? Why should I care? Well, Nintendo is appealing to the collector in all of us- All of these are limited and they look kind of nice to mess around with decorating. So, it's only natural that you'd want them, right?

DrCyanideDec 6, 20151 votes

I think you've got it backwards.

Pay to Play don't care as much, because once you've bought the content they've got their money. How many companies out there right now are charging full price for what amounts to an expansion of their previous game, or only delivering half of the game and asking for you to buy DLC's to get the rest of the story that should have been in the main purchase?

Free to Play games are the ones that need to keep player retention, since without it players won't stay long enough to give them money. You don't pay them until you're satisfied enough with what they give you.

NiyumiDec 7, 20151 votes

I'm talking more along the lines of an MMO. Like... WoW (earlier) vs. Guild Wars. League is along the same lines too, since it's technically an MMO, but they have fairly static content.

I know what you're talking about though; all the big name companies these days just release the same old game time and time again, but call it new, then wall off half the content behind paywalls, saying it's "new and extra content!" I actually made a big post about that a few days ago. :P

DrCyanideDec 7, 20152 votes

OK, but what's League's pay wall? Not getting limited-time kill animations? Not getting limited-time skinned Poros? Time commitment to get a second account up to level?

NiyumiDec 7, 20151 votes

League is a special case in which it doesn't have paywalls, but because of that, the "balance" (or lack thereof) is set up so that the easiest champs and the hardest champs are absolutely equal, and the most braindead champion can, quite easily, take on anyone or anything if played by a good enough player. True balance will never exist in League so long as it's an F2P, because otherwise, the snotty brats that make up the majority of the game's population would never throw money at Riot by the fistful.

This is also why they're reworking Azir to make him more "accessible."

MasterSomethingDec 7, 20152 votes

True balance will never exist in League is because of how it is structured. X champ becomes OP. Community searches for counter for X champ. Y champ is discovered to counter X champ. Y champ becomes OP. Community searches for counter to Y champ. Z champ is discovered to counter Y champ. The cycle continues. It's not got anything to do with money.

NiyumiDec 7, 20151 votes

True balance will never happen because Riot is dedicated to having every champ on a flat line. Real balance is when every champion has strong points and weak points, and it's up to you to make the best of what you have or play into an enemy's weaknesses. Right now, however, most champs are just too generalized, and it's more of just a preference of aesthetics and feel, rather than actual function.

When Riot realizes that not every champion needs to be equal for balance, then the game will be a lot more fun.

MasterSomethingDec 7, 20151 votes

Sadly, that would ruin their business model. Things will slowly get stale, even with new champions, as there would be a slow declining of new information as all champs reached their equilibrium. People will then do the same things every time they fight X champion, or X team comp, and boredom will set in.

NiyumiDec 7, 20151 votes

I'm not talking rock, paper scissors mode. I'm talking playstyle strengths and weaknesses that you can exploit in your own way. Like, Illaoi, for example. What beats her? Someone tanky, or lots of movement. So you could play Riven, who's so dash happy it's silly, and just run in circles around her while poking. Or you could play Mao and just laugh at all her damage. That's what I'm talking about. Each champion needs strengths and weaknesses in terms of playstyle, and every champion needs a clear method of counterplay (it could be something super hard to do, even, just as long as it's there).

MasterSomethingDec 7, 20152 votes

Yea, isn't that what all champs have? Regardless of whether Riot makes every champ into their "equilibrium" state, remember we're all human. People are bound to complain, they might be eventually forced to act. Besides, the game will end before that state is reached. Too many champions, too many variables, not enough time.

NiyumiDec 7, 20151 votes

It wouldn't be too hard to balance the game, imo.

Nasus: He's a super sustain drain tank lane, and just farms until you fall asleep. Make him do that really well, but give him sub-par damage and take away his two-shotting towers.
Riven: She's super mobile and relies on quick combos to win -- refine her character. Take away the burst, make her more reliant on actual combos, instead of just mashing buttons and winning.
Azir: Zone control! Make him the ultimate zone control mage (he kind of already is).
Mundo: He heals off your misery! Can't really kill a Mundo, but he sure as hell can three-shot you while perma-slowing you. Take away either the HP regen tankiness, or take away the damage. Make him hard to kill, but not so deadly.

Then, when you know their strengths, you capitalize on their weaknesses:

Play a hyper-aggressive top lane into Nasus, and push him away from his farm, or literally break his farm with something like Teemo.
Play a lot of CC into Riven, and shut down her combos.
Play someone who can just poke Azir and laugh at his attempted lane control.
Oh, Mundo? Play an ADC or someone with Executioner's Calling, and make him feel bad for himself.

Clear strengths and weaknesses. Not every champ able to do everything in the game and kill you instantly no matter how little damage they're building.

DrCyanideDec 7, 20152 votes

You listed 4 out of nearly 130. You also have to keep in mind that you need to make each one feel unique enough that they're worth having in the game while maintaining your idea of balance.

What's funny is that what you describe as your ideal way of balancing the game is what Riot has described as how they're trying to balance the game. Read or listen to anything about balancing the game or reworking a champion and you'll see that.

So if Riot is trying to balance the way you would if you cared about the game, doesn't that imply that they care about the game?

MasterSomethingDec 7, 20151 votes

We need some Ace Attorney music in here. Choosing each conversation idea is starting to get really stressful.

blkh1Dec 7, 20151 votes

Capitalism?

SexySoapTurtleDec 7, 20151 votes

Op is right you know. Go on steam right now and go to the free to play section. 99.9 percent of all the free to play games will have mixed reviews and a low meta score. You know why? Because companies release half assed content and expect YOU to be gullible enough to pay money for it. If you honestly believe game developers care about you. You really need to rethink your view on business. You have to realize that the gaming industry is just another business. You are just a customer. Without money a business cannot function. They also need to make profit. So they will do as little as they can to see how much money they can make out of it. And you know what? Riot games Has found the effort they need. All they need to do to keep you satisfied is to release some skins, Tell some of there workers to come on here and show you they care . And balance the game.