Tibbers Now Viciously Mauls Annie's Stunned Targets

The Ecdysiast·Apr 22, 2016·23 votes·1,834 views

This will be unbearable.

20 Comments

CrisisEchoesApr 22, 20164 votes

Betcha it does %hp true damage.

The EcdysiastApr 22, 20167 votes

And heals. Juggernauts are the most balanced subclass.

CasterGilgameshApr 23, 20162 votes

still better then the marksmen taking over every other fucking lane besides support and even then they dont take it because it sucks to be a support

The EcdysiastApr 24, 20161 votes

The juggernauts are the only reason marksman can go top. The only counter is trying to kite them past where they heal and deal true/infinitely stacking damage.

CasterGilgameshApr 24, 20161 votes

Yet the marksmen have always been needed for every single game since the start of this game and you cant pick any other champion bot lane without getting flamed unless that champion is op Mordekaiser

The EcdysiastApr 24, 20161 votes

That's because marksman is a class, while Juggernaut is a sub-class.

You don't see Kalista going top or Lucian going jungle.

The Fighter/Tank classes that Juggernaut belongs to are needed in every single game as well.

WutsKrakenApr 24, 20161 votes

Juggernauts/bruisers are NOT needed in every single game based on teamcomp, marksmen on the other hand are needed in ALL teamcomps

Juggernauts only belong in all-in style comps preferably with a hard initiator where they're right at home in the thick of things

Meanwhile juggernauts are probably the last kind of champion you want in a poke or siege comp. Immobile melee champ with no ranged harass and little CC for peeling? Useless in that comp or against that comp for that matter

Marksmen? Different one for each situation, but no matter what there must always be at least one

The EcdysiastApr 24, 20161 votes

I've won a lot of games where we had no marksman. ADC doesn't have to mean ranged. Yi or Jax can do the job of a full AD, tower-taking build just as well, even against a Marksman.

And no, I didn't say Juggernauts/Bruisers are needed in every game. Those are the names of the Sub-class. I'm explaining to you that the actual class they belong to is needed, even if their specific subclass isn't. Certain subclasses of marksmen are not needed every game, too. All-in marksman like Graves aren't in every game. Maximum range marksmen like Cait or Tristana aren't in every game. Caster marksmen like Ezreal and Varus aren't in every game, either.

WutsKrakenApr 24, 20161 votes

Just because Yi or Jax can do a lot of damage, doesn't mean they can take the role of a proper Marksman. You playing them as that basically means playing them as a bruiser or assassin bot. Can it work? Yes, of course it can. But the problem with that is the same problem of any bruiser or assassin bot lane

A Jax or Yi ADC basically relies entirely on snowball to carry the game, yes they are strong late-game champions, but they face the same problems a Jax or Yi anywhere else would, that is: Tons of damage and dueling power, then kited, CC'd, and DPS'd down lategame in teamfights, therefore leaving them to a cleanup or splitpush role, not the role you really want your main DPS to be taking up.

The one time after Season 1 when a melee bot lane was truly competitively viable was the Mordekaiser rework when he was broken as hell in a duo lane and completely worthless in a solo lane. Even HE relied almost entirely on snowball to win, if he didn't, he got destroyed by CC and the damage of the enemy

Also, perhaps I misread, however I still don't agree, the actual class that juggernauts or bruisers are in are not needed in every game. The current meta favors tanky fighters yes, that cannot be denied. But there has always been a 100% need for a ranged ADC in every game for the ability to somewhat safely DPS from range

The EcdysiastApr 25, 20161 votes

Your point simply says what's true of bot lane even as a marksman: it relies entirely on snowball.

And you can't just argue under the assumption that the player who's picking is picking Yi or Jax as an ADC in an unfavorable matchup.

WutsKrakenApr 25, 20161 votes

I'm speaking outside of lane. Jax and YI can't do squat in midgame teamfights, most ADC's hit a decent powerspike off of 1.5-2 items, Jax and Yi? They do not do so until they have at least 2-3 offensive items and 1-2 defensive. When it comes to lane, they can be easily zoned by any range at all, even worse vs double range, they cannot farm in the lane to reach their lategame fantasy unless their opponents are completely incompetent.

Additionally, there's a problem with tower pushing. You say they're good at sieging towers? There's a reason Jax and Yi are known as splitpush masters. They're incredibly powerful at taking towers when left ALONE. When the enemy is defending in a 5v5? Jax and Yi can't ever hit the tower without getting hit in the face with a bunch of CC and burst. If they rotate to splitpush? Enemy can engage the 4v5 because the main DPS is gone.

Another problem: There is no denying that a ranged Marksman with 3-4+ full damage items will output the highest DPS in a teamfight. Jax and Yi? CC'd to death. There is a reason that full squishy builds only work on them when they're 6/0 and consequently these 2 don't do the damage of a ranged carry with full damage items. Have a Jax or Yi ADC fall a little bit behind? They're basically worthless, have a Jinx or Lucian fall behind but not to god level feeding? Still somewhat useful

Only in low elo soloque do a Jax or Yi get to wreak havoc in a teamfight. There's a reason that players like Cowsep (The Yi god) basically splitpushes, duels, and cleans up teamfights instead of engaging with his team

Also, no offense but I'm willing to bet that most of your games you won with no marksman had one of these happen:

It ended in less than 20 minutes with some lane snowballing like crazy, or maybe multiple lanes, and yes you can argue that those kinds of games would be won regardless of who was the ADC.
The enemy picked very minimal CC to deal with the threat of the fact that the primary source of DPS is a MELEE character
The enemy did not know how to react at all to the fact that their opponents have no marksmen and don't realize the massive power plays they could easily make and fell apart to splitpushing