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Okay, Riot, seriously, let me help you out with Rengar and Kha'zix (x-post from GD)

Shinjusuke··8 votes·950 views

Seriously guys.

You release two champions, rivals of each other, stalking predators who seek out weak prey and quite literally devour them before their prey know what hits them.

They are, in EVERY way, described as assassin-like characters. Predators do not "brawl". Predators do not "fight". Predators stalk. Predators wait. Predators take an opportunity, and kill. The end. Any Nat Geo documentary could tell you that.

These are two of my favorite champions in all the years I've played League of Legends. I know them intimately (bow chika).

I get the need, really, I do, to eliminate that no-counterplay 100-0 stuff (unless your name is Leblanc. Or Fizz. Or Talon. Or like 5 other champions. Then it's okay if you delete people), but you're going about this in such a wrong way. Or, if "wrong" is a "nope, not reading any more" buzz word for you guys, "you're not looking at this from all possible angles".

Firstly, I was all for the major nerfs that hit the both of them. Rengars removal of triple Q, and his subsequent rework. Kha'zix's crazy damage on Q, his outright gutting of evolved W. These were necessary nerfs.

What isn't necessary is doing/considering more Kha'zix nerfs every single freakin' patch until the game dies. Like seriously.

I'm glad to see you guys following up on Rengar, that's great. You're still trying to force him to be a fighter instead of an assassin (news flash, Lions, Tigers, and every other big cat are not fighters), which I really don't understand beyond "assassins are hard", but at least you're sorta trying to keep his assassin builds alive..ish.

However, you released Kha'zix as a multiple potential, INCREDIBLY unique, awesome, fun-to-play champion. And then you removed one of his evolution options from viability almost entirely without any compensation to it's evolution form besides (later) increasing the slow by 10% (hardly makes up for the like 50% damage nerf and the ability to fire in leap). And then just... lots and lots of damage nerfs (60% AD scaling off E? Really guys? >.>)

If you STILL think he needs nerfs, fine, okay, whatever, turn him into Shaco-tier I guess. But at least care about preserving your own character's identities, and your own character's designs, and your own character's lore.

Firstly, if necessary, dump on lane Kha and lane Rengar. Yes, they're good, and they're fun, but that's NOT WHERE THEY SHOULD BE. Seriously, NOTHING about these two characters implies laning is where they'd be. They're junglers. As long as you guys try to make them equally good at both, they're going to be problem champions. They don't have to suck at laning, but they should be better, unquestionably, at jungling.

Second, if you're going to nerf Kha (again), make evolving his W just as viable as his other abilities. Sooooo much potential for an awesome champion that you guys are wasting by forcing him into ignoring one of his evolutions. I still say making his W his strongest potential slow (items included) and clustering the spikes closer would go a long way. To be honest, E will always probably get evolved. That doesn't mean nerf it, that means make the other options as enticing.

Third, make Rengar able to duel if he must, but the primary part of his power be in his up front burst. Right now, it's almost opposite. I don't want instagib Rengar back in ANY form, but he's not Darius. In fact, he should be playing the opposite. Up front damage and then tapers off the longer the fight goes.

I mean, c'mon. If you wanna make new champs like these guys and make them laning fighter-like characters, go for it, I'd bet they'd be awesome champions.

But don't take the only TRUE predator characters we have and make them in no way play like predators. Don't make such an awesome character in the form of Kha'zix's evolution concept and then make one of his evolutions pointless and then start nerfing the rest until they're equally pointless. Don't make Rengar into a wanna-be Tiger Stance Udyr who's better at 1v1 fistfights than pouncing.

Hell, hire me on, I'd love to help out with these guys. I'm not saying "OMG NEED BUFFS", they obviously don't (well Rengar maybe, but I'm of the mind it's more of a power-allocation issue than lack-of-power issue). I'm just saying the way you're handling the nerfs isn't fixing the issue, but it is killing the characters and their fantasy.

10 Comments

Sir ArmaMalum4 votes

I can really tell you like these champs, and I always appreciate posts that think of possible solutions to the problems they point out.

http://i.imgur.com/uMCz64W.gif

Shinjusuke3 votes

Thanks, appreciate hte support <3

EDIT: Also, best freakin' GIF ever. Love it.

Nintendan2 votes

All of his nerfs as of now are justified. He can 100-0 an isolated ADC lategame with Leap Hydra Q. Imagine if he could W in the middle of that (applying his passive) and having his E 80% AD scaling. He could severely damage an offtank.

Q nerfs: fair enough, he chunked too hard. I don't agree with this nerf but it's still fine.

W nerfs were needed because: a lot of damage for a safe spammable spell, insane burst with Q, before you even land from Leap. While it didn't fit Kha'Zix's style of play I found it an interesting option in some lanes. Kinda sucks because if it was good you could truly adapt to any lane. All in? Evolve Q. Poke/farm safely? Evolve W. Need extra distance but know you will kill them instantly? Evolve E. Need extra stealth/mobility to win those ever so close 1v1s? Evolve R. Sadly his W is just garbage now and should never be evolved.

E nerf: Are you serious? You're trying to say a gap closing/moblility spell that RESETS should ALSO be a highly damaging AOE spell? The main niché of this spell if to get around, in and out the fight not the blow up 4 people in a small area.

At the moment I think his R stealth time needs nerfs but that is just me.

Tobasco da Gama1 votes

You're still trying to force him to be a fighter instead of an assassin (news flash, Lions, Tigers, and every other big cat are not fighters)

Lions kill by pouncing on their prey and clamping down on their throats until they suffocate. Tigers do the same thing. Yes, they both ambush, but they don't "assassinate" in the LoL sense of the word.

Shinjusuke2 votes

You're correct, but, assassin is DEFINITELY a better relation than fighter. They pounce, go for a killing blow, and take their prey down as quickly as possible.

The only big cat that does anything close to a "fight" would likely be a Leopard (unsure about Jaguars, I imagine they're similar) which will on occasion pin down prey and use their back legs to tear apart the lower body of their catch.

Which is still following the same idea of pounce prey -> go for killing blow -> kill. Assassin stuff.

AbiwonKenabi3 votes

I would argue that their aim to make Rengar more effective in teamfights sort of reflects the way Lions take down really large animals like elephants. They work together and the initial attack might be an "ambush" but it takes a while to take down an elephant. I would say that is sort of a brawl. And since Rengar is better than just some normal lion, he would hunt more challenging game like that.

Take a look at this "teamfight" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2ZW0EvMzSM) if you're interested. ;P It's pretty cool stuff.

Shinjusuke1 votes

I definitely can see where you're coming from, (sorry, can't check out your vid just yet Q.Q), but that's a "pack-hunter" thing, which, again, while you have a point, Rengar is not.

Heck he's the one who jumps Kha and tries to take him out immediately. It just seems like the whole "fighter" thing isn't what his lore or character implies. Now, if his fighter playstyle felt like he was "savoring" the kill, that'd make sense I guess, but at the moment he's struggling the whole fight.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

No doubt that Rengar is not yet in the place he needs to be, even for a fighter. But there is definitely not only some wiggle room, seeing as Rengar is a fictional character, but there are also plenty of types of predators. Some like wolves, hunt in packs. Some lure them in, like a snapping turtle with it's worm-like tongue. Early human hunters often chased an animal to exhaustion, and used their intelligence and their tools to outsmart prey(seeing as Rengar is humanoid, this could be a tactic he uses).

Even among cats there is some variety. Cheetahs dash at prey at top speeds, making it one of the fastest land animals. Fishing Cats tap their paw on the surface of the water to attract fish then dive in after them! Servals scare birds out of the tall grass and then leap up and snatch them as they take off. Many use an ambush technique of course, but you can see there is a great variety in predator techniques, and since Rengar is the ultimate hunter, he could plausibly make use of any of them.

On that note, I still think he needs some changes before he can get to that point of becoming a fighter OR an assassin. I could see him still jumping on the backlines and dealing a lot of damage, but also being able to survive a lot of what they throw back at you. His CC isn't as reliable now, so I think it would be nice if he had more damage, more tankiness, or even both. I don't really play Rengar--mostly basing this on playing WITH a Rengar, as I had a friend who used to play him a lot--so I'm probably not the best person to ask. (I do like Lions though :P)

Shinjusuke1 votes

You bring up a good point, but the comparison to other predators is still ignoring Rengar as a character himself.

If he had a bleed effect like Talon that let him continue hunting down, it'd make sense. (humans)

If he were part of a pack, not taking things down quickly would make sense (wolves)

And I'd argue as far as laying in wait to pounce on someone, he's already supposed to be doing that, and I brought it up already (to compare to a snapping turtle).

His own lore paints him as a 100% solo hunter, with his own territory, and dispatching those who enter it with ease. He really doesn't drop any hints of being anything like a "brawler", as he savors the hunt itself, not the battle.

PhoenixSlayer131 votes

That's the thing though... Rengar explicitly joined the League to actually challenge himself. He got bored of hunting and killing squishy things.

Yes, Rengar is the hunter. But to me he's always struck me as the type that will take on a bear with nothing but his fists. He's the badass hunter who doesn't need special tools or magic and WANTS his prey to put up a fight. He enjoys it more when they do.

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