Riot, your balance paradigm regarding Kassadin is both hypocritical and dishonest.

Shinjusuke··157 votes·6,146 views

So, once again, Kassadin is getting nerfed. Really f'ing hard. Again. Just pointing that out. That's fine, honestly, it is. The problem is Riot is a bunch of lyin' bastards about it. There are a few reasons why they claim they're nerfing him again, and specifically targeting his ultimate. Supposedly, according to Riot,

  • An assassin should have to account for the frontline before charging the backline
  • Having that much mobility is bad for the game
  • A champion with that much mobility should have to pay significant costs for that mobility
  • A highly mobile assassin shouldn't have '100-0' potential
  • There should be worth-wile windows of vulnerability for an assassin with this much mobility.

And I sit here, and I have to restrain myself from breaking my poor mouse with how infuriating your incredibly obvious BS is. Firstly, I agree with all of those points, wholeheartedly. I think the game would be much better if you followed them, Riot. But you don't. You guys are, if I speak candidly, either insanely out of touch with your own game, or outright intentionally play favorites/nerf when you're butthurt. I'll try to make that the last I'll be bashing on Riot directly in this post, but I'm not ashamed of being so judgemental seeing as you need called out on your BS and pretend you want feedback ('course it seems like you only want feedback that makes you guys feel good, but hey).

This is yet another major nerf to Kassadin. Meanwhile, Leblanc and Lee Sin (give me a chance here "mains" of those champions, don't downvote me quite yet) violate all of those points of balance used to decide on this Kassadin nerf. All of them.

Which is fine too, except you can't balance champions around differing sets of rules for what balance is.

"Oh wah wah wah this is toxic no counterplay blah blah range too far CD too short blah blah".

Meanwhile, Lee Sin does what makes Kassadin scary/frustrating better every day and is also crippling the jungle along with Vi (as tbh I doubt J4 will be nearly as big a problem earlygame after the armor nerf, that's going to hurt his sustainability a lot, but that's a different topic), but expecting them to actually hurt their widdle favorite at this point is probably insanity.

And even worse, Leblanc, even without her silence, is literally just "better Kassadin". People complain about Kassadin's riftwalk every 2 seconds at max CDR, but the stacking mana makes it only realistically possible a few times and then he's out of juice, as his ultimate. Even with the mana cost decrease you're still looking at 960 mana per hop at max and that's ignoring using the rest of his kit's mana costs. Personally I think the stacking mana thing is a good gate to Riftwalks power, HOWEVER..

Leblanc has a 6 second CD on W (a basic ability, which she can/usually has from level 1) at max CDR, and something like a 14 second CD on her ultimate at max CDR. Both can be used to jump immediately after each other, both can be used to juke to vastly greater effect due to there being no restraint on how soon she can jump back to her original position, she does more damage than Kassadin in EVERY part of her kit and can do it with no room for retaliation due to the sheer speed at which it can happen (not to mention Kassadin must be in melee range for the majority of his damage to actually happen), and she has stronger CC than Kassadin.

Personally I think Leblanc is a horrible champion for the game (Lee Sin as well but he's not strictly "better Kassadin" like she is), and has literally the exact flaws but worse than old Kassadin, but that's not my point: My point is she's literally just "better Kassadin", but Kassadin keeps getting nerfed and gets fingers pointed at for "low counterplay" and "toxic design" while Leblanc and Lee Sin are completely ignored. That's not logical or honest balancing whatsoever.

If Leblanc and Lee are fine in their current state, Kassadin sure as fuck should be too. And if they're NOT fine, both of those champions should've been nerfed long before Kass saw another nerf because they violate your rules many times more than Kassadin does. Quit your favoritism BS, please, anyone who's been playing longer than a year is just plain sick of it.

P.S. Thanks to anyone who reads the long post, respect to those Leblanc/Lee Sin players that are able to come to terms with the situation and see what I'm getting at with this.

79 Comments

MrSlowDie46 votes

don't forget

Having that much mobility is bad for the game

Kalista

Shinjusuke30 votes

I think that's part of what makes me so goddamn mad about Kassadin nerfs: His entire thing from a gameplay standpoint is "I'm the most mobile champion in league".

Meanwhile, all the other champions with comparable mobility (or better, as I pointed out) just have that mobility tacked on as a bonus, in addition to all the other power in their kit. It'd be like if you took Kayle, said "Her main gameplay draw is her ult which gives invulnerability to someone for a few seconds", and then had like 9 other champions who had stupid crap like a passive that says "this champion is invulnerable for 1 second after every ability cast" or a W that says "this champion can make themselves and and ally invulnerable for 2 seconds" and then kept nerfing Kayle's ult for being OP.

lojician19 votes

I liked the part where riot explained "Oh yeah we wanted to try out mechanics like objective securing and granting extra vision on an adc." It's like they just had this list of things they wanted to try and never thought about doing them at different times instead of giving that shit to their new ridiculous champion with the most broken passive in the game.

That's what new champion design is, as far as I can tell. "Here's this list of ideas we had. LETS DO THEM ALL AT ONCE."

TheVeryVeryBest3 votes

LETS MAKE KALISTA, A NEARLY UNCHASABLE CHAMPION WITH HOPS,

lojician26 votes

The example that really irritated me was nerfing item 3143 because forcing an adc to stay in melee with you was apparently low counterplay and then deciding Kalista belongs in the game.

Riot straight up plays favorites. It's not really deniable.

xSay13 votes

To top it off, a quote from the first paragraph sum from the patch notes:

We're not calling it Riftstep. Rifthop. It's important to note that the mana costs on Riftwalk scale exponentially so while that initial lowered mana cost looks small, it gets real big real fast. Riftskip.

Ok... That is shady as hell, talking all about mana and not about the huge nerf--almost sounds like a buff at first until you keep reading.

Either way, Kassadin was fine, definitely not OP in his former state.

KevinDelMarr2 votes

I hate how they're talking to us like we don't know better. I enjoy playing Kassadin a good chunk of the time, I know how he works.

BossKhan9 votes

Don't forget Ahri, Riven, Nidalee, Zed, and all the other champions that hardly pay anything for their mobility while dishing out tons of damage and escaping. At least Kassadin had to build a lot of AP and mana to assassinate targets and keep his Riftwalk up, whereas Ahri and Leblanc can buy Morellonomicon and never have to worry about mana ever again. Ridiculous that they would nerf Kassadin despite all the protests, and then turn around and leave the "usual suspects" that people complain about from getting the nerf bat. Again.

Shinjusuke6 votes

Yeah, I thought about bringing them up, Nidalee in particular. The reason I didn't is because there's a little less "freedom" in mobility with those champions. Range on the jump in Nid's case and Riven's to some degree, cooldowns in the case of the rest. In that way, they make for not-as-good comparisons to Kassadin because their defining trait isn't their mobility, it's just tacked on and makes the rest of their kit vastly more infuriating (which is probably worse to some extent).

I still personally think they're pretty ridiculous balance-wise but aren't as good "this is almost a clone yet somehow is okay?" comparisons as Leblanc is, and Lee Sin is a better "can do all the same shit that people claim is so infuriating yet is somehow okay" comparison than the others, particularly the "get in and instakill his target and get out before you can retaliate" thing people complain(ed) about Kassadin doing.

Definitely not forgetting the rest of the offenders, though lol.

BossKhan4 votes

I think Ahri is a good comparison to Kassadin in that she has great mobility once she hits level six, and high assassination potential. Miraculously, Rito shows favoritism and Ahri's ult costs almost nothing late game. In return, Ahri gets to zip around the battlefield and wreck your carry despite missing all the spells that require aim. Oh, and not to mention she has: great wave clear, built in sustain, movespeed on q, hard cc, and range

Shinjusuke9 votes

Sure, it's a solid comparison, the real defining difference is the cooldown though. The reason Kassadin is better compared to Leblanc and Lee Sin is the frequency of the mobility (very nearly "always up") is the frustrating thing. While perhaps not a long enough window, Ahri does in fact have a "real" cooldown on her mobility skill, which is why she's not quite the same. In a teamfight, yes, she's pretty similar, but thats the only situation where it's true. She has "burst moments" of mobility, versus Kassadin/Leblanc/Lee Sin's "consistent" mobility. In the case of Leblanc and Lee Sin, they also have "burst mobility" in addition to their "consistent mobility", whereas Kassadin only has "consistent mobility", thus the Kass vs Ahri comparison rings a little more hollow.

I thought about including Fizz as well, but the comparison wasn't quite strong enough to warrant it for similar reasons.

Ninpire2 votes

Yeah and she's squishy as hell

so if she tries to stay within range of the adc she will die in a teamfight

And you don't get to pick what the foxfires hit when you play ahri, they auto lock. They could be hitting the tank cause they're closer.

Her hard cc is a single target skillshot, if you just throw it into a teamfight it'll only serve to help take out a tank. If she tries to use it on a carry she better be pretty fed cause she doesn't have the burst on it anymore.

Honestly, you people only list champion strengths when you complain about them.

I do agree with op that lbs state is stupid compared to kassadin though. And kalista is just fucking annoying and honestly her aas shouldn't hurt more than ezreals aas with that stupid passive.

Minrog8 votes

In six months you'll be able to play Tyreal and fight Arthas.

Meanwhile, better nerf Veigar. Get your house in order, Riot, your champion fantasies suck.

UncensoredAngel2 votes

?

birdsflysouth111 votes

heroes of the storm... theyre blizzard characters

DHKany8 votes

I never found Kassadin's burst to be absurdly high. His base damages are laughably low and he only really gets his power through his ratios which were also nerfed.

I don't see why they keep doing this to Kass when people like Zed or Yas can harass to other mids to oblivion and still have higher level 6 burst than him.

KING ATTILA7 votes

Riot is definitely out of touch with their player base and their own game. Even their ranked system is shit.

MrTBurr7 votes

As a primary Kassadin player and mid-laner I have found my way to the forum for the first time ever despite playing for years. I was saddened and sickened by the first Kassadin nerf but eventually came around to playing him once more and enjoying my favorite champion although I never spoke out against it. This however hits the nail on the head for me. Kassadin is meant to be a highly mobile assassin style champion that still vaguely carries about the traits of being an "anti-mage" in thanks to his still current passive. I think that with the increased cost tacked to his rifts in the patches previous Kass has worked well on a fundamental level. For instance: Crappy early game, not entirely superior mid level laning phase (Despite his ability to roam and solid kill potential, he often needs a helping hand after his last nerf) and his normal build path often contains highly priced items that require time and effort to gain. Due to the rising cost of Kass' ultimate I often build a number of mana regen and mana items so that I can fully benefit from what his core is, mobility. Now look at this, Kass is now unable to burst/follow/escape far more mobile champions than himself. After his first nerf cutting his power base a significant amount this nerf now breaks his knees once more, quite literally in that he can only 'rift-crawl' himself across the map in hopes of landing a 'e'-'w' so that he might have mana for another short rift to catch his fleeing opponent. If Kass is now given his 'W' to rely on for gaining mana to some extent then why make it nearly impossible for him (especially in lane) to rift onto someone (note the range is so short now that they will likely move away or bully you before you can get into range to rift onto them dealing the rift walk damage) to regain the mana boom from it. Imagine trying to rift after a mobile champion who also is able to clear walls, if you are lucky you will get your slow off on them and rift a few times more before either your high (now reduced a portion) mana cost or inability to catch the target due to rift distances cuts you short. Not only will you find yourself unable to burst them and unable to catch them but also likely unable to find any form of escape should they turn on you. As a Kass main I fully understand positioning and picking the right targets as I have mained Kass since Season 2 and gave him some play in season one as well. I hope that this is taken well by the community and by anyone who passes over it from Riot especially. Now I don't only post this to gripe although I felt the need to come here and voice my opinion finally and stumbled across this already well voiced article so felt posting here would be adequate; Here is a fix I would ask of: Instead of the current nerf why not look into what has been done for champions such as Rengar and Viktor... You say you want to keep Kass' unique ability and yet keep him balanced. This is my fix that admittedly as a Kass main is not as enjoyable as simply un-nerfing him yet still pays respect to allow me to play Kass as I feel he is meant to be played and a viable pick. Give Kassadin an item, for instance "Void Scepter: Grants a flat amount of AP, takes up an item slot and is optional or a trinket slot depending on the way it is used. This item much like tear has to be charged by void power in order to allow Kassadin his maximum rifting abilities. For instance: Flat AP bonus, after level 6 is obtained much like tear the item begins charging on ability casts, set a number that would unlock an upgrade for the item (more gold cost in his build path) that then allows him to rift at his previous range and grants him a flat mana or mana regen bonus, but nothing severe as it would be a Kass only item and allow him to rift the previous 700 range instead of the now nerfed 450. This means his late game will remain strong and as pointed out in the post above many champions such as leblanc are able to do the same as Kass' rift walk previous and even better so... It is frustrating to see my favorite champion having his knees broken once again (in before qq) but in all seriousness there seems to be some sort of issue here. I feel after his last nerf that there is now plenty of counter-play in itemization and positioning and a variety of champions that have enough mobility with aid of their team to establish themselves in a safe zone and forcing Kass to both be an assassin but with the need to select proper targets. I hope that the few who suffer through reading this will have feedback and that some of the community will agree with me on this. I have a good deal of problems with certain champion balancing but I make no mention of it, I simply want Kass (biased I realize) to be a playable and acceptable champion who can do what he was made to do.

TL;DR: Kass nerf broke his legs, Potential fix is adding an item that would grow like tear to allow riftwalk to full 700 potential and is not a forced purchase.

If anyone is up for discussing this in replies below I am happy to discuss things and will try to check back tomorrow. Viewpoints/fixes etc. Thank you Shinjusuke and fellow Kass players/community as a whole.

thinking man6 votes

Kassadin doesn't fulfill the same role as Lee so I'd say that while LeBlanc is a legitimate comparison, you have to compare Lee to something like Jarvan, which Lee is a watered down version of.

I'll upvote anyways tho

Shinjusuke5 votes

The comparison for Lee Sin is with regards to the fact that they attempt the same goal in a similar fashion:

Both attempt to reach the back line, assassinate a target and/or disrupt the enemy team then get out without dying (or in Lee's case just keep fighting because he's also a stupidly good fighter), and are defined by their mobility and ganking power. In that regard, Lee Sin violates all of the "rules" Riot claims for assassin playstyle, and does all those goals more effectively than Kassadin can (on top of all the other shit Lee's good at).

I did make a point to say the "Lee Sin problem" is less of a slap in the face than Leblanc is, but hopefully this clarifies the point of the comparison a little better.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

The comparison for Lee Sin is with regards to the fact that they attempt the same goal in a similar fashion:

Both attempt to reach the back line, assassinate a target and/or disrupt the enemy team then get out without dying (or in Lee's case just keep fighting because he's also a stupidly good fighter), and are defined by their mobility and ganking power. In that regard, Lee Sin violates all of the "rules" Riot claims for assassin playstyle, and does all those goals more effectively than Kassadin can (on top of all the other shit Lee's good at).

I did make a point to say the "Lee Sin problem" is less of a slap in the face than Leblanc is, but hopefully this clarifies the point of the comparison a little better.

Lee's actually a pretty shitty fighter as far as bruisers go.

I guess I understand what you mean, but Lee really isn't anywhere near as good at this compared to how Kassadin is.

Shinjusuke2 votes

Fighter in the sense that he can 1v1 and win (or decide "nah, don't feel like it" and stop fighting whenever he wants without getting rekt) in a ridiculously stupid number of situations.

Perhaps "duelist" is a better desription, but seeing as you can build basically any non-mana, non-AP item on Lee Sin and end up with an effective build I tend to refer to it as being a "fighter".

Yulen Xoshxius6 votes

You didn't mention Zed who can also kill you under turret?

UncensoredAngel1 votes

and talon and riven and reneketon and.... zeds fine he cant kill you under tower unless hes fed trust me

Yulen Xoshxius2 votes

I have seen a zed do it first hand, the others never even got close except one time a riven did, but she died from turret. The zed was able to escape barely scratched

KevinDelMarr4 votes

Did you watch the patch rundown? Explaining the changes and Kassadin like we're 5 and don't know how the Champion and game works. "It was only a small nerf". BS, it's a 250 range decrease, a small nerf would be 100, now it barely covers any distance. "We want Kassadin to have to use a few riftwalks to get to the back line". Wtf, he's not Yasuo who gets to dash every half a second or less, it's anywhere from 4.5-7 for most of the game, he's not a tank who can get hit by the whole enemy team and throw out hard CC in the process. Oh but you get to use your 5th riftwalk now that the Mana cost got nerfed. It's not like you lost 1000 units to get to use another 350 range blink. He has little identity now, might as well play Ahri or Lissandra because Riot thinks their mobility and CC is healthy (sure, Kassadin understands).

Oh but I agree with the OP. With Kassadin they're over-solving a small problem on a Champion who isn't the worst person you can face among his peers.

On a semi-related note, not liking the Kassadin animation changes on PBE. Flinging and pointing all over the place, not like he's a serious character or anything.

UncensoredAngel1 votes

I did find his re-work made him quite comical

Mephistophilis4 votes

LeeSin Zed Kalista Vi are the reason the game is unbalanced. Balance team has known it for months, but doesn't matter, the only thing that matters in this game is LC$BIGPLAY$

Shinjusuke1 votes

I agree, but I would appreciate it if the witch-hunt stayed out of the thread unrelated to witch-hunting, please and thank you :)

SmokingPuffin3 votes

This is a pretty weak argument. Two strongs don't make a right.

The stronger argument is pretty simple: Kassadin was a strong champion, but not nearly so strong as to accommodate a 250 range nerf to his best button. Look at what happened to Akali with only 100 range nerf, and Kass R is stronger than Akali R. There's basically no chance Kassadin is balanced after these changes.

Shinjusuke42 votes

You're missing the crux of the argument: It's not that "Kassadin is too weak these champions are strong wtf Rito"

The point is the grounds on which they're justifying more Kassadin nerfs are bullshit when they outright ignore the champions who do the exact same thing and have the exact same violations but way worse than Kassadin in his current (meaning 5.3, not 5.4) state does.

The point I'm making is they're being hypocrites by saying "X, Y, and Z are OP and Kassadin has both Y and Z so he needs nerfed" while Lee/Leblanc have X, Y, Z, and W and Riot acts like they don't notice. A simplified explanation might be "there are way fucking bigger and more problematic fish to fry", and in this case there's even one that might as well be a clone of the kit that was so "toxic" it was reworked out of existence on the champion they're nerfing (again).

It'd be like if Riot said "yeahhh long autoattack range is OP, champions can't have that" and then repeatedly nerfed Ashe while saying that Caitlyn, Kog'maw, Jinx and Tristana have perfectly reasonable ranges. Hypocritical and stupid.

That's what I'm getting at. Not "WOW WTF BUFF KASSADIN NERF LEBLANC", I'm saying they cannot reasonably say Kassadin violates balancing rules while simultaneously saying those rules don't apply to Leblanc and Lee Sin, especially since Kassadin was already a weaker champion than them. My beef is with their lies and hypocrisy, not the champions I'm using to expose said lies and hypocrisy.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I don't see it. Riot's thesis from the 5.4 patch notes:

unless he finds a specific flank or angle, he also needs to pay respect to the enemy's tank line before rendering his squishy targets Null and Void.

In what way do Lee Sin and LeBlanc violate this principle?

lojician19 votes

{quoted}

In what way does LeBlanc violate this principle?

lol

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Apparently I should explain my reasoning. Suppose you're Leona, and you're trying to block one of these champions from killing your carry.

If the opponent is LeBlanc, you have to block her WQRE combo. To do that, you can CC LeBlanc at the W point with your Q or R, or you can body block the E from landing on the carry.

I think this is considerably easier to do than blocking Kassadin. His flash doesn't telegraph where he's going to land, so it's way harder to land CC to block him. If you fail to CC him after the R, you can't body block any of the damage.

I'm not going to say that LeBlanc is a paragon of health -- most assassins have pretty lame counterplay patterns -- but I see significant difference in how these two champions play from the perspective of the peeler.

Kögâ1 votes

If its kassadin, as Leona all you have to do is hug your adc as kassadin HAS to be within 300 units to do enough damage for his time to be werf.

LB doesnt bother with the front line because she can be 500 units away, turn your adc into dust AND get away safely.

Lee doesn't bother with the frontline as he has both a targeted dash (ward hop), his q, an aoe slow and a knockback, meaning he has both insane peeling and sticking power, as the god of peeling your gonna have tough times. Even if you do lock down lee, chances are he can put around 1000 units between you and him.

Ramix The Red2 votes

I'm guessing that the other response to this post wasn't helpful, so I'll see if I understand what the point is:

Lee can: Kick everyone away from him (doing tons of damage) Dash again Delete squishies

LeBlanc can: Dash twice in row (doing tons of damage) Delete Squishies Gtfo instantly (even if she loses the dash recall she still has her passive to help her out)

Kassadin COULD theoretically do this. But with the new lower range, he has to spend more time and mana to get to his targets, mana and time which he can't be using to kill his targets and then gtfo. In this case Lee is a particularly bad example because he uses energy, meaning resources for his damage are a non-issue, and LB's burst is usually going to be high enough for it to be a non-issue.

SmokingPuffin5 votes

To be clear, I think the R nerf they made is a horrible design decision. It will surely remove him from the meta. I believe it breaks the champion.

However, I can see the argument that Kassadin is different from Lee Sin or LeBlanc. It is incredibly difficult to peel Kassadin, much harder than peeling the other two. From a more pragmatic point of view, I can also see the balance team deciding that Kassadin is a higher priority than those two. That contest rate in competitive play is intense.

Basically, I'd say: right nerf target, wrong nerf. I don't think it's hypocritical to nerf Kassadin; I think it would be hypocritical to not nerf him.

ThePoorPeople3 votes

I've been saying this ever since they started removing silences- Kassadin may have been first because his old Q would literally give no option for counterplay, but then again neither did LeBlanc's (who's silence may have taken two buttons, but did 90% of your health and silenced you for ALMOST 4 SECONDS TOTAL compared to Kassadin's 2.5 second silence. At the very least they came to their senses concerning that one, but they still are pulling shit like that. Moreover, I feel like they need to focus on the jungle rather than any lanes at the moment- dare I say it, but toplane is actually MORE INTERRESTING AND DIVERSE than the jungle. Toplane. The island of toplane. Atm, you play Vi, Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, or J4 or you lose. Simple as that. Not only is it infuriating to experience as a former jungle main, but seeing that they're so open to playing favorites only worsens the problem. I'm referring specifically to Vi here (completely dodged the nerf bat by some devil-magic favoritism).

Beoridas3 votes

this is the post ive always wanted to make sir. you are my champion. the live balance team is a complete farce, they dont deserve any soft words: oh yea you did this good and that good. we have done that plenty of time to deserve the right to criticize the balance. but now they have gone too far. they do not listen. they are hypocritical, incompetent and they ruined such a good start of a season in the most uncaring, arrogant and reckless way they could have.

Amarajah2 votes

Kassadin hasn't been able to 100-0 since S3 =x ....New players would have their jaws drop at how strong he was back then

Riot is full of shit, as usual

SgtCrispy2 votes

They nerfed all his damage because they said his ult gave him too much mobility, so now they nerf his mobility but don't recompensate him for the previous damage nerfs. As if Riot forgot their own previous patches.

Risurin1 votes

the argument was mostly that there is much you can do once he is fed, hence why they nerfed the range so there is a bit more counter play involved. i dont remember them mention half the stuff in your post

Rikari4 votes

he takes 40 minutes to ramp up wtf can you do then he already has high costs with a horribad early game not to mention being a melee mage who needs to dive into a team to have any effect

Risurin1 votes

{quoted}

he takes 40 minutes to ramp up wtf can you do then he already has high costs with a horribad early game not to mention being a melee mage who needs to dive into a team to have any effect

i'm saying thats the argument that riot was using...

and no he doesnt take 40 min to ramp up, he just need RoA zhonya and some map sense, and he is good to go take over the map.

EnvyDragon1 votes

{quoted}

So, once again, Kassadin is getting nerfed. Really f'ing hard. Again. Just pointing that out. That's fine, honestly, it is. The problem is Riot is a bunch of lyin' bastards about it.

I dunno why you'd accuse them of lying here. What specifically would they gain from lying? More importantly, what would they gain from nerfing Kassadin that should lead to lying to the community?

I'm not disputing the problem that you draw attention to - at this point Nidalee's W is literally just a better version of Kassadin's ult in nearly every case, just to add to the list - but using the term "lyin' bastards" implies malice, and I don't think the Riot balance team is being malicious.

Hanlon's razor: "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice." I don't think the balance team is stupid, I don't even think they're being stupid (their reasoning is sound), but I do think this problem can be attributed to a mistake on their part. Calling them liars only makes you sound confrontational.

Shinjusuke2 votes

They're lying about their balancing paradigm, which is kinda the very title of the thread, so I'm not quite sure where the confusion comes from. Everyone else whose read it seems perfectly aware of what the statement means, not sure how to help make it clear. If you'd like a specific edit to add clarity I'm open to suggestion.

To sum up, their claims for why Kassadin needed nerfed could (and should) be applied to many more champions who violate those same balancing principles, and those champions violate the principles VASTLY more than Kassadin could dream of and should've seen nerfs well before he did because of it.

In that respect, they are lying. By nerfing Kassadin (again, and harder) while simultaneously completely refusing to acknowledge the other champion's violating the principles they've used as justification in nerfing Kassadin, they're making the claim that he's the "worst offender" of those principles, which is simply untrue.

I'm sure professing Riot as the supreme beings they'd like us to (because having literally anything but "YOU GUYS ARE THE MOST AWESOME SHIT TO HIT PLANET" as a preface to your post counts as "non-constructive feedback" conveniently) might make them more likely to post in the thread and might be less confrontational, but when the point of the thread is to confront them on their bullshit, making it "less confrontational" seems kind of silly.

Frankly, I think I'm being as respectful as is deserving, considering they're being as two-faced as hell. I understand if you disagree and understand where you're coming from, I'm well aware sucking up does significantly more to get a Red post in a thread, but I don't care if a red posts in here: I'm only trying to inform them that their players are perfectly capable of noticing when they do this kind of BS. If it gets enough upvotes eventually someone there will skim through it, and that's enough for me. The point of the thread isn't to get changes to champion balance, the point is to let them know we are aware they're being biased hypocrites and they need to friggin stop eventually.

EnvyDragon2 votes

{quoted}

They're lying about their balancing paradigm, which is kinda the very title of the thread, so I'm not quite sure where the confusion comes from.

But they're not lying about their balancing paradigm. They've put forth the paradigm, they are applying it to their Kassadin nerfs. They just aren't applying it to all champions YET, which is completely understandable because...

To sum up, their claims for why Kassadin needed nerfed could (and should) be applied to many more champions who violate those same balancing principles, and those champions violate the principles VASTLY more than Kassadin could dream of and should've seen nerfs well before he did because of it.

...the game has over 120 champs, and a whole bunch of them are problematic assassins, but only one of them is basically pick-or-ban in the highest levels of play.

In that respect, they are lying. By nerfing Kassadin (again, and harder) while simultaneously completely refusing to acknowledge the other champion's violating the principles they've used as justification in nerfing Kassadin, they're making the claim that he's the "worst offender" of those principles, which is simply untrue.

They aren't refusing to acknowledge it, they just aren't acknowledging it. Again, you're mistaking a cock-up for a conspiracy. Lately (ie. over the last year or so) Riot's gotten REALLY bad at acknowledging things that are problems, even when they do plan to address them. What I suspect is that in the offices these are generally high-priority topics, but they don't really have people going into the forums anymore to say "Yeah, we hear you on Kassadin, this is our point of view" etc. THAT is a problem that needs to be solved. You can help solve this by looking at things from their point of view, and realizing that just because they aren't saying anything doesn't mean they are literally shutting you out.

I'm sure professing Riot as the supreme beings they'd like us to (because having literally anything but "YOU GUYS ARE THE MOST AWESOME SHIT TO HIT PLANET" as a preface to your post counts as "non-constructive feedback" conveniently) might make them more likely to post in the thread and might be less confrontational, but when the point of the thread is to confront them on their bullshit, making it "less confrontational" seems kind of silly.

Making it confrontational sparks pointless anger. Making it constructive sparks discussion.

Saying Riot is "lying" is only going to piss people off (on both sides... Riot will go "We aren't lying, screw you" and players will go "HE'S RIGHT THEY'RE LYING TO US LET'S GET MAD") and is never going to solve a problem. If you're right, and Riot IS lying (which ignores all bounds of goddamn rationality), then they have no reason to come clean. If you're wrong, and they AREN'T lying, then all you've done is pissed them off and make them less amenable to open discussion.

Constructive criticism doesn't mean lauding Riot as gods. It literally means it has to be constructive - it must come off as an attempt to build things up and improve the situation. Opening your post by calling them "lyin' bastards" does nothing but set a destructive, hostile tone. That's not how you start a discussion, it's how you start a fight.

Frankly, I think I'm being as respectful as is deserving, considering they're being as two-faced as hell. I understand if you disagree and understand where you're coming from, I'm well aware sucking up does significantly more to get a Red post in a thread, but I don't care if a red posts in here: I'm only trying to inform them that their players are perfectly capable of noticing when they do this kind of BS. If it gets enough upvotes eventually someone there will skim through it, and that's enough for me. The point of the thread isn't to get changes to champion balance, the point is to let them know we are aware they're being biased hypocrites and they need to friggin stop eventually.

They aren't being two-faced, though. They're addressing a champion with a 90% pick-or-ban rate in LCS, who has a long history of breaking the game, and perhaps (in my opinion completely) overcompensating by nerfing him in the wrong areas. Yes, there are other champions who already do what his ult does, and do it better. But the fact that they haven't been touched is not a goddamn conspiracy. Nobody's lying. It's a mistake that someone has made. Those are very different things, and they must be addressed in very different ways.

Kobila20001 votes

Thank you

I just don't get how so many people can't wrap their heads around the fact that Kass is a problem, as he's always been. Just because he is not a problem at the level you're playing at, doesn't mean he isn't at the level pros are playing at.

It reminds me of Nida pre-rework, where almost always it was either Nida mains or low elo saying that she isn't a problem and that you just "have to avoid her spears" while high elo actually knew how to play her or faced those who do and would complain about how broken she is.

Lapis Stellatus1 votes

{quoted}

But they're not lying about their balancing paradigm. They've put forth the paradigm, they are applying it to their Kassadin nerfs. They just aren't applying it to all champions YET, which is completely understandable because...

...the game has over 120 champs, and a whole bunch of them are problematic assassins, but only one of them is basically pick-or-ban in the highest levels of play.

That right there is the problem so many have. They nerfed Kass recently, after having undergone a series of nerfs prior to even that one. Then another one this patch. This one going against reasons they gave for his past nerfs. They should be applying it to others, or rather, should have before giving Kass yet another nerf. If not favoritism which you claim, which is believable (and I do believe that), it's incompetence in managing priorities and/or handling scheduling. Leblanc is genuinely 'better Kass' now, which for Kass mains (which my friend is) is every reason to be upset by this. Their nerfs should've been at the same time, a close window, or Leblanc's should've been first. No one wants their main to be a 'troll pick'.

They aren't being two-faced, though. They're addressing a champion with a 90% pick-or-ban rate in LCS, who has a long history of breaking the game, and perhaps (in my opinion completely) overcompensating by nerfing him in the wrong areas. Yes, there are other champions who already do what his ult does, and do it better. But the fact that they haven't been touched is not a goddamn conspiracy. Nobody's lying. It's a mistake that someone has made. Those are very different things, and they must be addressed in very different ways.

That overcompensation makes it easy for pessimism to grow. Riot should understand this, and if they don't, then I can't hold them to any regard as far as PR goes.

KlNG ACE1 votes

leblanc was actually nerfed pretty bad, sure she is insanely mobile but riot removed her silence. her silence was HUGE. it made her in every way, broken. with her silence, no one could match her mobility and kit. so yeah, she got nerfed pretty good.

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