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I hear many people are complaining about the Tank Meta. Here's an Assassin view you might've not had

Shinjusuke··112 votes·10,002 views

So, apparently people are upset about the Tank Meta. With the exception of sort've Swain, every champion I choose to play (except when a specific pick/role is needed) is either a jungling assassin, or a mage. And even my mages are usually assassins in some capacity.

So I'm a jungle assassin guy. Instakilling bitches is how I get my jollies.

If any of you don't remember the "Age of Mog's" that followed the "Age of Black Cleavers", it was an unbearable, infuriating time where pretty every game was boring-as-hell because everything was a wet noodle fight and teamfights lasted like 3-5 minutes. It sucked. It really sucked.

I don't think the current "Tank Meta" is anything like that. Yes, tanks are more powerful. Yes, nearly every tank jungler is currently a bit too powerful as a jungler. The jungle tanks could use a little nerfing. Not a lot, to be sure, but some of these tanks have faster clear speed than many damage-focused junglers through cinderhulk and that's not cool. But back to my original point: The current "Tank Meta" is manageable. Tanks have their place, and are doing it more effectively: They're damage-sponges, frontline, and engagers. Where the problem would come from is if they were also able to win duels vs sustained damage champions of equal gold/xp, and with the exception of the few tanks who don't have the CC usually atrributed to tanks or are equally viable as fighter-like champions (meaning Mundo, Garen for example). The "true tanks", as I'm calling them, the ones who have the majority of their power in their ability to soak damage, CC, and engage, are actually in an okay spot. Again, the jungle tanks are a problem, but for the most part, the "general strength of tanks" is not that terrible.

I'm going to assume that the majority of people complaining about tank-meta are not tank mains. They're likely A) Mages/mids who are upset their ult isn't killing the highest-defense guy on the enemy team, as usually that's what mages complain about, B) Assassins who are upset that they can't assassinate/duel a tank, despite tanks being the counter to assassins role-wise, or C) Marksmen/ADCs who are upset that tanks are stopping them from right-clicking until they get a pentakill.

Consider this, however: Having Tanks be the "spotlight" of the balance discussion, as well as what teams are built around, has a few benefits, and some things you might not have considered make complaining about "Tank meta" kinda dumb.

  • If something is overpowered in the near future, chances are it's going to be Tank-related, which means a tank or a tank item will be getting nerfed rather than your favorite blight-upon-balancing (lookin' at you, Nidalee players).

  • Tanks are a direct counter to many of the things that are, let's be honest, infuriating champion kits that do nothing but piss people off. Regardless of how you feel about their balance state, there are a few assassins/mages that have fucking infuriating kits that offer absolutely zero fun or interesting interactions. I won't list them to prevent the "X Y and Z are OP" inevitable outcome, but just bear in mind those "I have no risks and can 100-0 you" champions are countered by Tanks being powerful.

  • Tanks being more powerful doesn't make the squishy targets any less squishy. If you know how to play your assassin and aren't just hopping on whatever OP bandwagon exists at the time (cough you saw something in LCS and think it'll carry you to Diamond cough), chances are you probably aren't running straight past their tank to your target anyway. You can still blow up that stupid little ADC with bad positioning, or that Mid who blew their spells. They're still squishy. Worry about that.

  • Tanks being more powerful doesn't make your mage any less stupid-high-AOE-burst. Sure, now you have a hulking mass of gross-looking muscle-meat charging at your face, but honestly, if your tank (or support, or both, w/e the fuck you've got goin' on) is doing their job, or if your teamcomp isn't garbage cuz you decided to instalock a Syndra without talking to anyone, having someone charging at you isn't as much of an issue. The only time mages seem to complain is when either A) They get assassinated, because that's the assassin's job and the mage doesn't know how to ward ("That's the support's job!") or position ("Someone should've peeled for me while I'm 20 feet away from my team!"), or B) They can't 100-0 anyone they want. Frankly, get it through your head that your Ahri isn't supposed to be able to kill the tank: Your ADC is. Not you. Game doesn't revolve around you, buddy. Ya got a role to play. Besides, if you're ever in danger just hit your Zhonyas, since it's CD is way too short.

  • Tanks being more powerful doesn't make ADCs any less powerful as late-game shredding monsters. Sure, it takes longer for you to melt through that tank (oh nooo you can't kill everyone in less than 5 autoattacks the horror), but honestly, if you were less worried about trying to get kills and more worried about doing your job (which, for the ADCs who are too selfish to know, is providing sustained damage over a teamfight and dropping objectives faster than other roles, NOT having the highest K/D ratio you can get), it wouldn't matter. With proper positioning, that tank can't get to you. With proper itemization, you can kill him long before he's a threat. With proper mechanics, once they're dead you guys can probably push pretty fuckin' hard. If you're too obsessed with stacking crit chance to buy a Last Whisper and BotRK, it's your goddamn fault you can't kill the tank.

  • It's very easy to spot what an over-powered tank looks like versus other roles. I'm not talking about what a whiney wood-tier player thinks is over-powered, nor am I talking about infuriatingly-designed kits that frankly should've never made it past the beta, I'm talking about straight numerical power. Spotting a tank who's too strong is easier to spot and agree upon than most other roles, as tanks who are too powerful tend to turn/win games more easily than other roles. If there's an OP tank, we're going to know pretty easily. Sion and Sejuani were pretty obviously too strong and people pretty unanimously agreed upon that fact, and they got nerfed incredibly quickly compared to some other junglers who've dominated the meta for several years (you know which champions you are, and if you don't oh-god-I-pity-you). TLDR: when a tank is OP, it wins games and gets noticed and nerfed pretty quickly.

  • For the most part, teamcomps built around what Tank you have are usually the most effective. I know, I know, you're the assassin/mage/adc, the whole game revolves around you and your K/D, but the fact is, building a team around what your engage/disengage is will win you many more teamfights (and games, by extension) than pretending your ability to 100-0 a single member of their team is the most valuable part of your comp. Tanks being buffed means that more (too-desperate-to-actually-learn-a-champion) people will play Tanks and be more interested in what Tank is on your team. Because of this, they are more prone to wanting to build a team around the tank. Which means more wins for you, provided you're willing to get past your ego and actually contribute to the teamcomp.

So, yes, Tank junglers are too strong in general, though not by much. But calling this a "Tank Meta" and acting like it's a bad thing is just silly. Get past the fact that this isn't CoD, and get past the fact that there's someone on their team you CAN'T kill just because you're 1 item ahead of everyone else, and you might be less angry at the "Tank Meta". It's a good thing.

P.S. From all my trash-talking about the roles I profess to play, you might be prone to think I'm secretly a tank main. Well, I'd invite any of you to look at my match history or ranked games or whatever you want. It's pretty obviously a heavy preference to basically everything but tanks.

110 Comments

WrongRunesBG12 votes

Conclusion: Tanks are overrated atm (still strong)... thank me later lazy people :P

Shinjusuke9 votes

See, I've found TLDRs end up getting a bunch of people with almost 0 understanding of the game downvoting because they disagree with the one-line statement rather than bothering to grasp the concept being discussed.

That said, thanks for reading lol

EndlessSorcerer12 votes

I don't really find most of the jungle tanks are too strong, though Amumu and Sejuani were a bit overtuned last patch (can't comment on Sion, since I never really saw him and beat the few I did).

I think the main issue is that many players haven't adjusted their playstyle or champion choices to handle the tanks yet. A lot of players are still picking champions who excelled against squishy targets (i.e. Graves, Lucian, Lissandra, Kennen, Nidalee, etc) but can have issues handling hard-engages and durable targets.

Honestly, as soon as I heard Cinderhulk was coming out I began practicing champions who are strong against tanks in preparation for their return, though many of them were still my preferred picks.

Malzahar Trundle Gnar KogMaw MasterYi are all great champions to deal with tanks.
Amumu is another good choice. He's a tank who benefits from Cinderhulk, however the synergy between Liandry's Torment and Despair make him a strong choice against tanks. Honestly, if you get Void Staff as well he can gradually melt everyone while fighting and still have good burst damage.

SmknWdl7 votes

Yasuo is another great champ against tanks because of the armor penetration he gets from his ult

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb6 votes

Amumu has a lot of build options. He's one of few tanks that can play with the damage to tank slider, so to speak. If he gets ahead, item 3116 item 3151 allow him to hold a lead really well while providing surprising kill potential.

Now that cinderhulk is a thing, item 3083 item 3075 item 3143 make great items on him too.

EndlessSorcerer7 votes

Yeah, Amumu's build versatility is fantastic and lets him suit a lot of team compositions.

Your team is heavy AD with another tank/bruiser?
item 3020 item 3725 item 3116 item 3143 item 3001 item 3151

Team is damage heavy and needs a tank with CC to engage/peel? item 3158 item 3725 item 3143 item 3102 item 3151 item 3110 or item 3075

Enemy team has several tanks? item 3020 item 3725 item 3143 item 3102 item 3151 item 3135

And Amumu's ability to hard-engage or peel enemies, clear the jungle and objective monsters quickly, good early ganks, and damage both tanks and squishies are valuable in pretty much every team composition. He's rarely a bad pick, if you aren't too worried about early invades or believe you can survive them.

Dragmosh1 votes

Which do you think does more damage to a tank with say 150MR, assuming you have liandries, void staff or Rylai's? Rylai's has great synergy with Amumu W + Liandries, and also provides him with more utility, allowing him to peel even without cooldowns.

Also, I find mobility boots to be core on him, in the early-mid game, as it is on pretty much every non farm jungler.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

I don't typically purchase Mobility Boots on junglers. I find that Sorceror Shoes, Ionian Boots, Ninja Tabi, or Mercury Treads typically offer stats or utility I value more than out-of-combat movement speed I can understand why people get Mobility Boots, but they are not my preferred choice.

I typically use movement speed quints on my junglers, so I'm not missing out on the movement speed too badly.

Rylai's Crystal Scepter works well with Amumu's W and Liandry's Torment, giving him a constant 15% slow and doubling Liandry's Torment's damage. I don't really care much for the slow on Rylai's since his abilities are either AOE or have another CC which overlaps the slow duration. It's good, but many of the champions commonly picked have escapes or gapclosers they can use to get away from the slow and there are other sources available to provide slows to increase Liandry's damage (Randuin's Omen, Frozen Heart, Red Buff, Chilling Smite, allies, etc).

I find that tanks often have enough MR to help mitigate the percent health damage or Liandry's Torment and Despair, so I like getting Void Staff to penetrate their magic resistance. After a certain point, Void Staff's penetration is more valuable than additional AP anyways, especially when a good chunk of Amumu's damage (Thornmail, Cinderhulk, Liandry's Torment's burn) doesn't scale with AP.

Sammystorm1 votes

Kennen is great when tanks are strong. Basically when tanks are strong you tend to see more team fights and with team fights you see a couple of things more prevalent. Mainly you see AoE being more valued and you see hyper carries being more valued. kennen's ability to aoe dish out massive damage and a stun is amazing for team fights which is why we have seen his return in the lcs.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Wasn't his return to top lane due to the buff his W received (that is, it will hit everyone within his ultimate when cast) and the trend of using ranged CC mages top?

Anyways, I don't really play Kennen much and I can understand your point regarding teamfights, so I'll take your word for it. Kennen was just one of the currently popular champions that came to mind who wouldn't really have the consistent DPS required to handle fighting tanks. I didn't really think of his synergy with them on the same team for initiation or follow-up.

The Trent9 votes

Zed players are just mad they can't one shot tanks now without auto attacking

Father Cthulhu2 votes

On Zed you should be auto attacking anyways. So usually its the bad Zed's that qq about it. Honestly though, Zed still has plenty of kill potential against tanks. One of his core items is BoRK, and the rest is armor pen usually. You're ulti then gives you up to half of your BoRK active, plus your passive damage, and all your Q E and other auto damage. So really he's still really good, despite tank meta.

Big Lincoln6 votes

It's really only Sejuani and Sion (and Amumu) that have legitimately faster clears than the AD jungles after a certain point, and they were doing that way before Cinderhulk even dropped.

A lot of tanks are still pretty sluggish, but Cinderhulk does a fair amount to keep them from falling behind like they used to.

It's a shame that both the price and health are getting nerfed, despite the champions who are problematic with it already being toned down in response. 250 more gold that I can't spend on wards, potions, or a trinket upgrade is going to be incredibly annoying early-mid game, even more than the fact that the machete upgrades already had higher costs for a while. Hope these get reverted.

Shinjusuke2 votes

Well, here's the thing: Cinderhulk brought up all tank-junglers by a large margin. Sejuani and Sion were already borderline-OP-if-not-OP before Cinderhulk, which means that Cinderhulk brought them into the spotlight. Either way, they kinda needed a small nerf. Meanwhile, Cinderhulk is making all tank junglers a tad too strong, and needed a minor nerf. We'll have to see how it plays out on Live, but I think it's not going to be as devastating as you might believe. Frankly, tank junglers shouldn't have comparable clear than damage-oriented ones, Cinderhulk is currently making it so.

I do think Riot's so adamant about their "adding tank jungles fixes the jungle" mentality (it doesn't, by the way. You've still got 3 champions that can do all the jungle things they need hint hint wink wink) that if Cinderhulk gets overnerfed they'll revert it immediately.

ProfDrDeath6 votes

Nice work, and sums up the benefits of an environment in which tanks in general (and not just specific tank picks) are competitive and viable.

One thing to add:

Strong tanks might even further team-focused play, as a lot of champions actually feature tools that can help in taking down a huge target. For example, J4/Vi/Trundle/Sion/Kayle/Amumu each possess abilities that shred an enemies resistances, making those enemies more susceptible to damage, especially damage from your AD carry and AP carry.

Kitten of Evil6 votes

They're likely A) Mages/mids who are upset their ult isn't killing the highest-defense guy on the enemy team, as usually that's what mages complain about,

I'm a mage main and I approve OP's message. I have zero problems with tanks being a bit stronger, because at least they don't delete me in 1.5 seconds, and sustained fights provide more opportunity for mistakes/taking advantage of mistakes, and teamwork and positioning are much MUCH more important in sustained fights with tanks, something most assassins up until recently were free to ignore (and some still are).

When tanks are strong, pubstompers aren't. And I like that.

disregardable5 votes

You really don't like Marksmen, do you?

Shinjusuke53 votes

I have no problem with the champions themselves, I actually enjoy playing a few Marksmen considerably (mostly caster ones though, Lucian, Ezreal, etc. Draven's the only "auto-attack focused" one I like).

I just think they have massive egos, like disgustingly huge egos. And largely, I'd blame Riot for it, since over the years Riot has fought adamantly to try to keep Marksman "necessary" in games. But god damn, it feels like 80% of the Marksman "mains" I meet seem to think the whole fucking game revolves around them and they're the only thing that can possibly win the game. It's downright pathetic, and infuriating. Not to mention, they're usually the "worst" players I encounter: The ones whose actual knowledge of the game and mechanical skill is the lowest on our team by a longshot.

So you're right, I don't like Marksmen players, for the most part. I never go into a game automatically assuming they're going to be selfish or uncooperative (that's how you lose, after all, particularly as a jungler lol), but usually by 30 minutes in they've shown they think they're god's-gift-to-League pretty thoroughly, even the ones that have 40 cs and are 0/6. Not all of them are like that to be sure, and I've played with a few that were really impressive players, but the majority of the time they're the lowest-skill guy on our team with an obsession with themselves that'd dwarf a planet.

Marinaras Trench5 votes

Were not all bad :( But to be fair, auto attacks a chogath until you die even if he doesn't attack you is not fun lol

EvilRabbitt2 votes

Only reason I don't like marksmen is that no matter how fed I get, its still protect the adc....despite my ability to pentakill while they're in the infancy stage. =(

Ariel the Cruel16 votes

You should try maining support. . . . for FIVE SEASONS.

The only reason ADC mains can even get like that is because we're they to bail them out and take the blame.

DarkFaun Fortes5 votes

I main support and jungle, and honestly it's sad that only 0ne out of 3 games will someone give me credit and say thanx.

Shinjusuke7 votes

I don't even care if I get credit. All I want is for my ADC to not be convinced the whole fuckin' game revolves around them. I played a game last night as Fiora jungle and even when I was 17/2 and our mid was 12/5, the Graves still kept spamming "GG We lose" into the chat and proposing surrenders literally every time he was able, because he lost his lane. He ended up whining the entire game, refused to join a single teamfight, and repeatedly clearing my jungle route just to spite me. We ended up winning the game without him, essentially 4v5, and in the postgame lobby he was still insisting the one dragon he got us while we were busy killing two inhibitors gave us the buff we needed to win the game.

A personal thanks to Riot for supporting the spoiled brats of the game for several years by refusing to let their role phase out of the meta. The other 4 roles on the team are endlessly thankful.

Apollocliptic2 votes

I've been in that EXACT situation, with fiora jungle, and this idiot graves, I think I was support and I just jumped to support a different lane after all his BS, wonder if we were in same game.

Overall I agree with this thread, I main support, but ADC mentality ruin this game, and i used to secondary jungle/tank, but I hate how adc's lose their lanes then complain that it's because they don't get enough ganks (when the enemy adc is 3/0 in 7 minutes)

anyway, GO TANKS I think if ADC's didnt have burst damage (or burst was limited to ultimates only) and they didn't have crowd control, the game would be more fun. An ADC should be sustained damage, using skill to and teamplay to stay alive. A few Vayne that can 1 v 5 the whole enemy team sucks, even when the player is bad, the they only need someone else on their team to carry and they can become ridiculously OP

Spacesuit Spiff3 votes

Yep, that is extremely familiar. Reminds me of this Sivir who tried to 1v2 while her support was helping with dragon. Immediately exploded by the enemy botlane, threw a fit because "oh good you got draaaaag doesn't matter though I died so it's gg", even though overall we got 2 kills (mid and jung tried to 2v3 contest drag) and a drag compared to her death. So needless to say she cried hysterically about how the support is a little bitch that shouldn't ever leave the adc, all while ulting down mid to die to the turret.

That alone makes me want to see anticarries come back to the botlane, just so the role looks less attractive to delusional children. Right now all we have is Cait, and she usually just gets picked by bad players who want to afk farm.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Was that Sivir the same guy as the Ashe in my game? We went for the crit cheese and almost dropped the enemy support, then she started crying about why I had flay. Then we burn Jinx's summoners, she cries about me not predicting her last hits while proccing targon and losing 1 cs. Then I get us 2 kills for my death and I took one of them down and I'm the worst support she has ever met.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Wait... who thinks Thresh isn't supposed to take Flay level 1?

AbodyHUN6661 votes

if you are going for catching someone out it's good to have

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

To be fair, Cait has the lowest skill floor of all ADC's, in addition to being very safe. So if they're bad/inexperienced, I'd rather they use cait over... say... Varus, Kog'Maw, or Lucian (or heaven forbid, Vayne).

Wullf2 votes

goes to creek to put a ward ADC dies "fucking noob support"

doesn't ward to stay with ADC Gang comes, both die "Fukcing noob support, no wards"

Daily struggles of main support.

Meeks0112 votes

Bot lane is a metaphor for a baby and a babysitter. Marksmen is the baby and support is the babysitter. Imagine if you were a babysitter and the baby insulted you 24/7.

Nagirah10 votes

I hate being an adc main when these stereotypes keep floating around. The challenge of being one of the only few nice adc mains...

Shinjusuke3 votes

It's a shame, but stereotypes exist for a REASON, and when I can expect the stereotype to be fulfilled in literally 2/3rds to 3/4ths of my games, it's downright disappointing.

It's pathetic that being a "nice" or "cooperative" ADC is supposed to be an achievement.

That said, thanks for being one lol

BodyByDave3 votes

I was thinking of making a post lauding all of the 5.5 changes because personally I think this is the best state the game has been in for a long time, but you pretty much summarised it all here. This meta devalues the individual and pushes the team aspect of the game more than ever and I am so glad that games are going to frequently less often be carried by one stupid fed guy because noone can be bothered to pick a tank to deal with him due to their power being complete garbage tier. I am glad early ganker champions got a heavy nerf because dictating an entire game due to a good pick ban phase is boring. Overcoming challenges as a group is far more interesting than having one person roll their face across the keyboard once they're fed.

I am glad that Riot got the game to a point where a player can pick whoever he wants (For the most part, still a little work to go, but it's soooo close now) and do well with it. Having noobtrap champions in the game isn't fun for anyone and if a champion exists it should have a viable role to fill even if it is niche.

Meeks0112 votes

They have a role dedicated to babying them for the first 15 minutes. No other role gets that. Rito thinks they need the babying.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

ADC's actually went mid, once upon a time. Tanks and supports were both bottom lane.

The meta evolved to maximize exp/gold distribution. And aside from Kalista (And to a lesser extent, Kog'Maw), no ADC has ever required a support. So you can't really blame that one on Rito.

They do continually enforce the notion that ADC's are necessary to win though.

Meeks0111 votes

Do ADC's mid work so well? Every says assassins counter ADCs and mid is riddled with them.

What about top? Well going there is a dick move and no fun.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Some ADC's can still run mid. Some do run top.

It's just not ideal.

Malix Farwin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZjONfLsP,comment-id=0001000000050000,timestamp=2015-03-27T15:12:55.786+0000)

ADC's actually went mid, once upon a time. Tanks and supports were both bottom lane.

The meta evolved to maximize exp/gold distribution. And aside from Kalista (And to a lesser extent, Kog'Maw), no ADC has ever required a support. So you can't really blame that one on Rito.

They do continually enforce the notion that ADC's are necessary to win though.

I'd like to see ashe try and solo lane

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Ashe: probably not. Lucian, Sivir, Ezreal, and Quinn (If you count her) have all seen success there though.

Auryiel5 votes

Only thing that's wrong right now is that it's possible to do nothing but walk towards an AD carry and make them kill themselves on your thornmail + gromp buff

No one should be able to kill someone else by just existing (I'm definitely not talking about a Rammus who somehow managed to reach the AD carry and taunt him/her, because that Rammus DID something).

And before you say ''The tank isn't forcing you to attack him'' well good luck trying to do anything but die while that Sejuani is on your ass. She needs to be peeled or killed ASAP.

Shinjusuke11 votes

You've got a valid point, but I think you're severely over-estimating the numbers. Not to mention, if you're facing a thornmail and refuse to build more lifesteal than the 10% given to you by BotRK, it's your own fault. The tank had to build an item to counter you, if you're not willing to build an item to stop that effect, you deserve the death.

Auryiel2 votes

I mean I don't even play AD carries, so idc but honestly BotRK is supposed to be the answer to tanks. If it doesn't work, then there's something wrong

Shinjusuke9 votes

BotRk is supposed to be the bruiser/fighter answer to adcs, NOT the ADC answer to anything.

Look up it yourself, that's what the item was released for. However, as is the case with every damage-focused fighter item Riot releases, ADCs started using it, and Riot let them.

BotRK isn't supposed to be the ADC solution to tanks, it just has been for a long time because the item is overpowered. The answer to tanks is supposed to be a combination of sustained damage and armor pen. Buying BotRK should never be an "answer to tanks", particularly since it's so powerful almost any ADC can get it in their first few items and hit a fairly large power spike.

EvilRabbitt2 votes

Last Whisper + Blade of the Ruined King on top of Shiv is supposed to rip tanks. Its why people trying to say one is better than the other are kinda wrong. You get 35% pen, 5% current hp, and magic damage- along with loads of attack speed. IF they have gromp or thornmail, you need bloodthirster too.

junglerboy164 votes

He isn't really over exaggerating much, but that is only for a couple of the higher damage/health stacking tanks. I play a lot of Sion (I have mained tank junglers for about a year now and grabbed Sion immediately after the relaunch) and in the games I've played him since the last patch came out, I will say there were in fact multiple occaisions where I killed someone while trying to kill somebody else (usually either support or ADC died to the collateral of gromp buff+Cinderhulk AoE), and that is not an ok thing, this coming from a tank player.

Shinjusuke3 votes

Well see, in Sion's case, his whole kit is designed to be AOE. If you're adding Thornmail and Cinderhulk/Sunfire to your build, I think it's safe to say that occasionally netting a "collateral damage" kill isn't exactly terribly surprising, particularly in a hectic teamfight. Granted, Sion was too strong and got nerfed this patch, and might need more later, but I would say "I killed someone I wasn't specifically aiming for" isn't as much a problem in Sion's case seeing as all of his playstyle and build supports AOE.

junglerboy161 votes

My point is that before Cinderhulk, I would get maybe 1 collateral AoE kill a game (as in somebody just dies to me while I'm not doing anything but charge up Q), but after Cinderhulk and Gromp buff, I got between 3-6 a game, depending on their length. That big of a difference is what makes me think it is something to do with cinderhulk and gromp buff in particular.

Shinjusuke2 votes

I think that's largely got to do with people without enough lifesteal being where they shouldn't.

I personally think Sion is way too powerful through his Cinderhulk/W passive synergy, as the sheer HP wall is just plain ridiculous even in midgame, but my point was more "getting collateral damage kills is expected with Sion", rather than "getting collateral damage kills isn't happening too often". I agree, there's too much free damage happening on him right now, I was just pointing out that compared to most, it's not as surprising that he'd get random unexpected kills.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb4 votes

Armor pen, lifesteal, and mr are all valid options to deal with thorn. This is because the thornmail's damage return is based on your pre armor reduced damage, whereas lifesteal is based on post armor reduced damage. Thorn's damage is magic, so tanks that build liandry's are going to have more bite with it.

I think blade's passive damage also ignores the thorn effect, but I'm not sure.

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