The correct way to fix zoe.

lolipopevelynn··29 votes·11,794 views

Nerfing her numbers is the wrong way to balance this champion simply because of how her W works. So how do you balance her? Rework her W!!!! Its that simple. Her W is what makes this champion extremely strong because it basically has no cd. Put a CD OR a ammo mechanic on it. Ive said this so many times but no one seems to under stand that 3 ignites is stupid strong. Her active bolts do not matter because ignite alone is all you need. And thats just 1 summoner.

Proto-belt, gunblade, botrk, redemption, etc are all very strong actives, especially when used early game where it should be impossible to have these items built. So to get lucky and used them multiple times in a row without cd or charges is too much regardless of her base kits damage.

So here is my suggestion: A) everytime she uses a spell with W there is a short CD of 5 seconds before she can use another. CD can be tweaked for balance. This should also allow for her active bolts to be buffed since by default it also will have a CD.

B) give her spell charges. Lets say she has 3 spell charges. She can use up to 3 spells like she normally can currently but once those are used up her W goes on a long CD. Spell drops that drop while her W is on CD drops as spell recharges instead which lowers her W CD if picked up. Once off CD she regains her 3 spell use charges again.

another thing people hate is the fact that her E rewards you even if missed. Bad design no matter how you look at it, but this is an easier fix imo. Simply remove that mechanic entirely or change the zone area into a slow that slowly puts you to sleep if you stand in it long enough. For example instead of the bubble area putting you to sleep instantly it insteads slows you by X%. If you stay in the zone for 2 seconds you are put to sleep. That should be a fair way to keep the mechanic without making it flat out unfair.

That is how id personally balance zoe. Change mechanis first THEN adjust numbers to suit the tweaked mechanics. By now we can safely say that her W and E mechanics are flat out unfair. I get she is supposed to be a champ that ignores game rules, but her ability to use more than 2 summoners is more than enough "unfairness".

31 Comments

I memba balance 7 votes

No. you balance Zoe by deleting that fucking abomination

Modl Ryden l7 votes

I just really don't like how her W forces your opponent to think about purchasing item actives.

Like if you buy Zhonya's there a chance she'll get the stasis active. If you buy BotRK there's chance she'll steal that active too. If you buy Youmuu's... Protobelt... Redemption... etc etc etc.

You're effectively buying her actives which is so stupid.

I get that the W is named spell thief. But how in what way is her character a spell thief? As far as I gather she's just a universe-fuck-upper like Loki. Loki never needed to steal to fuck shit up. He just fucks shit up.

Verxint1 votes

I never understood what her kits theme is supposed to be "Aspect of Twilight" Yes, that makes me think of beach balls and ping pong paddles

Compared to every other Targonian Aspect, her abilities make no sense.

Do those things even exist in Runeterra?

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

I never understood what her kits theme is supposed to be "Aspect of Twilight" Yes, that makes me think of beach balls and ping pong paddles

Compared to every other Targonian Aspect, her abilities make no sense.

Do those things even exist in Runeterra?

She is the aspect of change according to aatrox. Wherever she goes there is huge change. She is also a very free spirited person and her kit simply reflects her reality bending and warping, but most importantly it reflects her mischievous childlike nature rather than her job as an aspect of change/twilight.

The name Twilight also reflects this change. Twilight is the transition from night to day or vice versa. Night to day are HUGE changes to everones daily life. If you dont see twilight then no change in day or night. When you see twilight you know night is about to change into day or vice versa.

Verxint1 votes

So..... What does this have to do with beach balls that make you sleepy or ping-pong paddles that shoot nuclear warheads?

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

So..... What does this have to do with beach balls that make you sleepy or ping-pong paddles that shoot nuclear warheads?

Those are skins. Also read my edit. Her kit reflects her mischievous childlike nature and not her aspect. She is also able to bend reality. She can be or do whatever she wants, literally.

Verxint1 votes

Her E in her default skin drop-kicks a rubber ball. Her Q in her default skin has a paddle hit a ball. What do the have to do with change or transition. Even thematically, what do the abilities mechanics have to do with that? The only part of her kit that makes sense mechanically with her theme is is the portals.

Furthermore, "she's speeshul and can do whatever she wants" is terrible writing that you find in a preteen's fanfiction.

Not only does every other Aspect have abilities that make miles more sense, Zoe is also the only one that didn't do dick to actually earn her title.

Rathar Dashing6 votes

Zoe can't get gunblade or bortk unless an enemy gets them.

RyzeTheSmurfMage2 votes

She can get them from minions...

FeuerfalkeFX7 votes

She can't. She can get protobelt and the other ice thingie but neither gunblade nor botrk.

sardonisms2 votes

Hextech GLP-800 is the one she can pick up. This thing:item 3030. Which is, to be fair, still pretty obnoxious for her enemy.

Psyrix5 votes

I agree with your proposed changes to W.. would also add the caveat that the dropped spells/items are slightly weaker...and maybe a nerf to the ms she gets late game. I disagree with the E tho, functions as zone control. Deleting it I def wouldn't do... the proposed change kinda makes it an aoe affect doesn't it? so would have the potential of interacting with more than one champ (unless specified to only interact with one unit) Her abilities are thin skillshots that don't pass through units, Pretty much every mage has some form of zone control to supplement their kit

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with your proposed changes to W.. would also add the caveat that the dropped spells/items are slightly weaker...and maybe a nerf to the ms she gets late game. I disagree with the E tho, functions as zone control. Deleting it I def wouldn't do... the proposed change kinda makes it an aoe affect doesn't it? so would have the potential of interacting with more than one champ (unless specified to only interact with one unit) Her abilities are thin skillshots that don't pass through units, Pretty much every mage has some form of zone control to supplement their kit

the way the new E zone would work is the sleep effect would target only the target who stayed in the zone the longest and just slow everyone else. so the slow is AOE, but the sleep is single target based upon who has been in the zone the longest. so lets say two people are in the zone, the person who stepped in the zone first will naturally hit 2 seconds first IF both stayed in the zone. that person will be slept while the other will just stay slowed while still in the zone. but if the first person leaves the zone and the 2nd person stays in then that 2nd person will be slept instead. not more than one person can be slept, so reentering the zone wont sleep someone again if they were already slept. also lets say the zone lasts 3-4 seconds on the ground. at that point is say its still fairly good zone control while having counterplay.

also not every mage has zone control. Annie for example doesnt and neither does Ahri Diana . maybe you can make a case for annie and tibbers with rylais, but that is extreme nitpicking.

Psyrix2 votes

Annie is functionally herself Zone control (her passive) as well as Tibbers when he’s up. Ahri and Diana are functionally assassins, they generally prioritize true mobility rather than zone control, they also have abilities that pass through units. There could also be an argument in the size of their Q’s (also being very telegraphed) to serve as zoning but it’s a bit of a stretch

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

Annie is functionally herself Zone control (her passive) as well as Tibbers when he’s up. Ahri and Diana are functionally assassins, they generally prioritize true mobility rather than zone control, they also have abilities that pass through units. There could also be an argument in the size of their Q’s (also being very telegraphed) to serve as zoning but it’s a bit of a stretch

its always debatable what ahri and diana truly function as. throught their history there identity fights between mage, assassin, brusier. at one point tank ahri was a thing. their kits are not fully flushed out with the identity. even now ahri still goes back and forth between mobile mage and assassin. i dont see annie being or having zone control at all. flashing and insta summoning tibbers is not zone control imo because its impossible to know who she will try to aoe stun when she does that. zone control is not a burst, its a lasting effect otherwise its not controlling anything. tibbers without rylais is also not zone control because tibbers himself can be instantly smited and deleted if he is just summoned without the burst damage. tibbers with rylais functions better at that purpose, but again its nitpicky and gimmicky.

Psyrix1 votes

Lol, no not the flash ult mechanic. I mean solely the passive. When it’s up u generally stay away from her (550 units) not just due to the burst, but the cc, similarly to tf when he has the gold card. In terms of definition anything that deals burst damage and is mobile (true mobility) is considered an assassin. If the ult on Zoe didn’t have the second part, I’d call her an assassin.. Ap ranged assassins are weird tho in the sense they’ll alsi be considered burst mages lol.

Fisher No Chains4 votes

Or just give Zoe’s W a mana cost AND a short static cooldown so she can’t spam it for free.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

It already has a short static cooldown. 0.25 seconds.

Honestly I think it should have a 2-1.5 second cooldown, non-static.

Automated Riven3 votes

IMHO I think she should just be deleted. Next time riot wants to release a mage call it a "Zoe rework" it's basically what they do every other rework anyhow.

Fuck next release can be given Zoe's model and called a rework. Probably would be at least on par with all the other ones.

z63XnLCMwX2 votes

Take away power from her W and shift it into her Q. Bring back the old Nid spear damage!

The Space Cowboy2 votes

Good suggestions. I play Zoe and approve.

Teridax682 votes

I'd say switch her W and R around, and completely remove both the Ahri W/speed-up component and the RNG minion spell shards. Zoe's high moment with Spell Thief should simply come from opportunistically picking up someone else's recently used summoner spell or item, and being able to cast a "free" version of that effect is already powerful enough by itself. Meanwhile, Portal Jump is properly relevant to the way Zoe plays throughout most of the game, and likely deserves to be available from the start. She may need some rebalancing with this, but at least she'd be in a state where her summoner spell/item active casts would be entirely predictable, and wouldn't be this spammable effect she'd get to apply on a regular basis in lane.

Vah Medoh2 votes

What about an opponent passing by a spell on the ground, breaks it? Like healing totems from Bard.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vah Medoh,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ztzuccfg,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-08-22T06:10:48.835+0000)

What about an opponent passing by a spell on the ground, breaks it? Like healing totems from Bard.

Her spells always drop away from her and towards the enemy. She would never get them and if it drops toward her she would always get them. Not to mention the ones that drop outside her lane

SolarisCorvus2 votes

I think that for zoe’s W riot should remove the interaction with minions that makes them randomly drop a random active. Instead riot should make it so that minions always drop the same active that would be unique to zoe only. For example a small MS boost or a point and click damage active. This way Riot could change the numbers of this unique active in order to keep zoe’s w in line and also remove the unfair rng from laning against zoe. Also instead of minions randomly having baloons that give zoe the active spell it should be changed to once zoe kills a set number of minions the next one will drop the item active. I think this would make it more fair to the enemy laner because now the minion dropped actives has less rng and can be kept track of in order to counter play it.

HéntaiSénpai1 votes

I agree with most of this but even still I don't see anything, other than her W, being at all OP. Her W could use a CD or Spell Charge/Min. At rank 1 you can pick up to 3 Spell/Active and use 1/min but they only stay in the W "slot" for 20s, and standing over a new Spell/active for 2s replaces the current one. And at Rank 5 She can pick up 6/min and use 4/min. As far as her E mechanic I like your idea as well, except Id like the AoE to be wider of we're implemeting a slow. Or take away the sleep after it pops and add a larger slow, and make her initial E line AoE a slight bit larger

SGT Reckless1 votes

I think it'd be a good fix. But maybe her E, rather than a timing mechanic (considering changing could step in and out potentially) maybe if a miss changed it into a nap zone, silencing all enemy champions standing within it. Still would offer zone control on a miss, but without the reward of someone falling asleep even without landing the shot.

The Pr0taku1 votes

too complicated champ, unfun to play against, unfun to win as, can we please just get ride of her? The E is the only worth while idea in the champ's entire kit anyway.... ugh focusing on more op while classic champs have 3 year + old bugs that still need addressing.

SweedishGunner1 votes

Easy was to fix Zoe? Give her the Thanos treatment.

Rec Ohm1 votes

Removing the bubble trap of Zoe's E is a bad idea both mechanically (it's her only CC that provides her with manageable zoning potential) and visually (it'd be a scam to have it removed a few patches after her new skin, that has its beautiful seagull VFX). I would rather see it getting nerfed than being completely removed, although it currently is just fine. As another summoner suggested before, swapping her W with her R and giving Spell Thief a static cooldown or a charge mechanic (e.g. Zoe can hold X charges on her R and she gains 1 charge every Y seconds, with X being increased and/or Y being reduced with each rank) would be much better and balanced in my opinion.

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