can we please get rid of %HP true damage?

lolipopevelynn·Feb 8, 2016·146 votes·5,610 views

like its impossible to build against and its getting very annoying. true damage in flat amounts is fine, but when its %max HP then it is pretty much saying "fuck every defense item you build, not only will it be useless, but it will just make my damage higher".

why does it exist? Old for example never had it or needed it. she did insane damage to squishies but was ALWAYS countered by a thornmail or frozen heart. now none of those items matter to her.

can we please get rid of this stat?

160 Comments

Teridax68Feb 8, 201619 votes

I don't think pre-rework Fiora is really a good reference on how to design her now, as she used to be even snowballier, with the added factor of having spells that, by nature, made her damage practically impossible to avoid (she also had two dashes on her Q, both of which had significantly longer range than her current Lunge). You're also thinking of percent health true damage in terms of counterbuilding, which is also a mistake, and one that keeps being made on Boards: max health true damage is, by design, impossible to build against, and that's because the mechanic forces you to play against it, rather than hope to tough it out. All sources of this kind of damage require the user to put in extra effort in counterable moves, and while this holds less true while Fiora can build tanky, she's built to assault enemies at melee range as a squishy damage-dealer, aiming for points on her targets that can lead to them dodging her, CCing her or anticipating her movement when preparing a counterattack.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 8, 20165 votes

Fiora still has all the problems she had before her rework. Its just a different flavor of stupid, now.

Teridax68Feb 8, 20168 votes

I don't fully agree with that. Pre-rework Fiora would just mash all of her keys in the direction of her target, and at the end of it either they died or she did. There was no real way you could play against a Fiora, besides not getting near her in lane and rushing Thornmail afterwards. Sure, current Fiora still has issues with being oppressive in lane, she's still snowbally, and her tanky build is an abomination, but she has a ton of levers that can, and likely will, be pressed to bring her back in line. Her current damage is somewhat unreliable and, more importantly, open to meaningful counterplay (though not so much counter-building), her defenses and CC are situational and telegraphed, and she lacks her pre-rework self's ability to jump from out of combat to the back line and kill the enemy squishy in a combo that was practically impossible to avoid.

Going forward, if there's something that needs to change on Fiora right now, besides her ability to go tanky and still function, it's likely the more generous parts of her sticking power. She probably shouldn't have her Q reset upon striking non-champions (large monsters could still be fine, though), and its strike detection radius is probably a bit too generous. Her Vitals need to feel difficult to hit at all levels of skill, and if that's not the case now, then she probably needs to change until that happens.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 8, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I don't fully agree with that. Pre-rework Fiora would just mash all of her keys in the direction of her target, and at the end of it either they died or she did. There was no real way you could play against a Fiora, besides not getting near her in lane and rushing Thornmail afterwards.

Sounds like current Fiora except rushing Thornmail doesn't work anymore.

Sure, current Fiora still has issues with being oppressive in lane, she's still snowbally, and her tanky build is an abomination, but she has a ton of levers that can, and likely will, be pressed to bring her back in line. Her current damage is somewhat unreliable and, more importantly, open to meaningful counterplay (though not so much counter-building), her defenses and CC are situational and telegraphed, and she lacks her pre-rework self's ability to jump from out of combat to the back line and kill the enemy squishy in a combo that was practically impossible to avoid.

I'd argue that her counterplay isn't all that meaningful. its the difference between her destroying you or just rekking you. And while I don't think a champion should be designed where they are completely shut out for not being in the perfect scenario, i still find it rather dumb how her passive is actually rather negligible to her. Its not so much of a "she needs it" as it is a "she can and itll shrek you that much more", making the "counterplay" feel neglibeable. She pretty much can and still plays as faceroll-y as she used to.

Going forward, if there's something that needs to change on Fiora right now, besides her ability to go tanky and still function, it's likely the more generous parts of her sticking power. She probably shouldn't have her Q reset upon striking non-champions (large monsters could still be fine, though), and its strike detection radius is probably a bit too generous. Her Vitals need to feel difficult to hit at all levels of skill, and if that's not the case now, then she probably needs to change until that happens.

At least we can come to some form of agreement here. This hits all the points I feel need to be addressed. It's not every day i come across a reasonable person in GD. Have a nice day, sir/mam. ^^

charcharmunroFeb 8, 201615 votes

I honestly don't think %HP true damage on Vayne and Garen is bad. For Vayne, it's basically her identity. For Garen, it's... Kinda not even noticeable. It's the fact that Fiora has it, and the % scales with AD, that makes her really annoying. Because you can at least build FH or something against Vayne, kinda difficult to counterbuild Fiora.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 8, 20168 votes

You're suppose to counterplay Fiora not counterbuild her also QSS removes her ult.

Devious MachineFeb 8, 20161 votes

Holy shit what. Your statement is so contradictory wtf man.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 8, 20162 votes

You can counterbuild her ult, but overall you're suppose to counterplay against her true damage.

TridemFeb 8, 20164 votes

Wait.... Garen has it? LOL The more you know...

charcharmunroFeb 8, 20163 votes

Yeah. Every auto-attack/spin of his Judgement does 1% max health true damage to the Villain. Not too noticeable, just helps him chunk down beefier villains.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 8, 201611 votes

like its impossible to build against

It's almost like that's the point, it's suppose to **force **you to counterplay it rather just building enough defense and ignore it.

Additionally it exists to give them strength vs tanky targets without making them utterly murder squishies, which is very important for Fiora because its what make her duelist fighter rather than a standard assassin.

Left Hook LarryFeb 8, 20162 votes

It's almost like that's the point, it's suppose to force you to counterplay it rather just building enough defense and ignore it.

Which would be fine... if she didn't build full tank and have an ability that can block any cc in the game making her extremely difficult to hold down and kill

Phoenix Kotori Feb 8, 20163 votes

Look I know bruiser/juggernaut fiora build is overtuned and thus frustrating due her damage level being too high for her amount of tankyness, I am not going to deny it's problem.

However that build being an issue at current balance levels doesn't make %HP true damage bad design that should be abolished, that's all my argument is.

RendarkanFeb 9, 20162 votes

The funny thing is they nerfed her Armor and MR in earlier patch along with her health. The only way to really fix it is to give her armor and MR back but reduce her AD base and scaling. It will have to force people to actually build damage on her.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 9, 20161 votes

I'd say base damage (or base AD) is main area to hit so she needs more AD for the same damage and scaling shouldn't need change since scaling is suppose to encourage damage builds nerfing it would sent wrong message, imo.

RendarkanFeb 9, 20162 votes

Scaling as level growth. Not her abilities shoulda clarified on it lol.

Left Hook LarryFeb 9, 20161 votes

Except it is a shitty mechanic that shouldn't exist because there is no counterplay

Phoenix Kotori Feb 9, 20164 votes

The ability has counterplay, it doesn't have counter build, the 2 aren't the same thing. (If you think they are you should probably stop talking about anything concerning design.)

ElkhantarFeb 9, 20162 votes

Ok, then explain the counterplay to me. You can't cc her, because she just bounces it back at you, and you can't outrun her because she has dashes and a burst of speed. Or you just flee and leave her do whatever she wants (roam, take objectives, you name it).

I understand she is a duelist, and as such, meant to outduel other champions, but it's kinda ridiculous that she can outduel any champion in any condition, even well from behind, and just dive tower, get ult, and get healed back as if nothing happened (and heal her team in the process).

Hence why I ban her when I can, because saying she's overtuned it's "slightly" understating her current power level.

I would be fine if she could duel me in the open and just beat me if she gets the vitals hit and such. But with dashes, hitting the vitals is not that difficult, and being able to totally burst a turtling opponent under tower, that is not fine.

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tPWqE2sW,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:31:53.367+0000)

Which would be fine... if she didn't build full tank

Ugh, stop. Tank Fiora isn't a thing. She needs bonus AD. Building her tank is terrible.

Left Hook LarryFeb 9, 20161 votes

Can't tell if trolling or just this bad

SoMNiaFeb 9, 20164 votes

Coming from someone who claims that Fiora builds "full tank" and isn't useless? Right...

AsphodelNextFeb 8, 201610 votes

Against Vayne you can get attack speed slow item 3110 item 3143 to slow down the rate she can proc her % health at, which also gives armor and health to block her actual basic attacks too.

ParoeFeb 8, 201644 votes

{quoted}

Against Vayne you can get attack speed slow to slow down the rate she can proc her % health at, which also gives armor and health to block her actual basic attacks too.

Why should i need 6500 gold to counter a single zeal?

Sahn UzalFeb 8, 20163 votes

I don't even think those passives stack.... You build both out Wardens summoner 31

NichtHurzFeb 8, 201610 votes

They do stack. If you get Randuins first and proceed to buy Wardens afterwards, the effects won't stack since they're both a unique passive named Cold Steel. Frozen Heart has an aura which is called differently and works differently, so the items effects do stack.

Sahn UzalFeb 8, 20163 votes

Cool! I do get both those items sometimes when I need the CDR and the %crit reduction or something, but I thought I was wasting a passive! Awesome that I can gettem both without wasting! summoner 31

AckelopeFeb 8, 20161 votes

Why do you always include that summoner spell icon after all of your messages?

Sypher The PoroFeb 9, 20162 votes

Why don't you? summoner 4

AbyssphereFeb 8, 201634 votes

{quoted}

Why should i need 6500 gold to counter a single zeal?

Because it's also countering the huge amount of non-true damage she's doing? 71% of her overall damage output is physical.

People need to stop thinking that every champion who does true damage does nothing but true damage. You get armour against Vayne and Fiora like you do against every physical damage champion because it weakens their damage. No, it doesn't negate all of their damage, but it's still useful.

Troll for TrumpFeb 8, 20166 votes

Frozen Heart got nerfed hard and is bad on a number of tanks. Randiuns is k though

Problem is Riot kinda wants to nerf tank items now..

The LovelessFeb 8, 20169 votes

Agreed. Max hp damage should be physical or magical to reward that champ for building the appropriate penetration. Maybe they can even get away with building a LW first item, but then at least they can deal with tanks and not have high enough damage to also kills squishies.

Sir YamazukiFeb 8, 20167 votes

{quoted}

like its impossible to build against and its getting very likening. true damage in flat ammounts is fine, but when its %max HP then it is pretty much saying "fuck every defense item you build, not only will it be useless, but it will just make my damage higher".

**> why does it exist? Old Fiora for example never had it or needed it. she did insane damage to squishies but was ALWAYS countered by a thornmail or frozen heart. now none of those items matter to her.

** can we please get rid of this stat?

That was Riot's intention unfortunately.. They want her to be able to kill anyone regardless of who it is.

ProeliumFeb 8, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tPWqE2sW,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-08T10:26:27.943+0000)

**> why does it exist? Old for example never had it or needed it. she did insane damage to squishies but was ALWAYS countered by a thornmail or frozen heart. now none of those items matter to her.

That was Riot's intention unfortunately.. They want her to be able to kill anyone regardless of who it is.

Yeah, I hate that they assigned people who didn't know why people played Fiora to the Fiora rework.... instead of people who actually loved the champion. Really poor decision.

SoMNiaFeb 8, 20167 votes

{quoted}

its impossible to build against

You're not supposed to build against it. You're supposed to avoid it. It exists to give the user target-agnostic dueling potential without giving them so much damage that they instantly annihilate anyone who's not a tank. Armor doesn't counter Fiora because it's not supposed to. If your answer to damage is to build defenses and keep getting hit anyway, Fiora is obviously going to kill you. No, they won't get rid of %HP true damage.

HoukagoFapTimeFeb 8, 20165 votes

It's the only way to stop this tanky meta that will never leave us due to how strong tanks or tank items are.

Big LincolnFeb 8, 201611 votes

until fiora starts building tanky too :^)

Phoenix Kotori Feb 8, 20162 votes

Tanky Fiora is a problem but that's another topic.

DracosKasuFeb 8, 20163 votes

Actually tanky item are better early and kinda weak during later game but right now it is so easy to snowball that any tank can break any other lane if they are feed

TurquoiseYoshiFeb 8, 20162 votes

Fiora builds juggernaut-y rather than as a straight tank. The reason why the build works is that she still has lots of damage and the Tiamat AA reset, but she also has an easier way to get back into the game if she falls behind early (something squishy Fiora had a problem with, alike to Riven in that regard).

YumaS2AstralFeb 8, 20168 votes

{quoted}

It's the only way to stop this tanky meta that will never leave us due to how strong tanks or tank items are.

There are Vayne lots of Malzahar ways to TahmKench stop tanks Trundle on this meta.

INoble KnightIFeb 8, 20167 votes

MasterYi Velkoz Teemo Fiora Darius Chogath

It Hertz When IPFeb 8, 20164 votes

item 3151

Oh wait, that's right...

Masala ChaiFeb 8, 20163 votes

Elise ?

SpeedphoenixFeb 8, 20164 votes

You CAN counter it!!!!!!!!!!!! you need a shield ;) so item 3190 is ac ounter right?

HarIeFeb 8, 20163 votes

item 3401 also deserves a mention with its shield equaling 10% of your maximum health. Making it comparable to item 1401 in terms of tankiness.

AeszarckFeb 8, 20165 votes

Extremely good point. Basically, what counters %health true damage is healing/shielding after damage is done, or ways to stop the champion from attacking you.

If you heal with any of these items (Potions ( item 2003 item 2033 item 2032 item 2031 item 2010 , Relic Shield line ( item 3302 item 3097 item 3401 item 2303 ), Ancient Coin line ( item 3301 item 3096 item 3069 item 2302 ), Regeneration items ( item 1054 item 3105 item 3060 item 3102 item 3801 item 2051 item 3190 item 3084 item 3112 item 2053 item 3800 item 3074 item 3065 item 3077 item 3748 item 3512 item 3083 ), Valor's Reward ( item 3010 , item 3027 ), Mikael's Crucible ( item 3222 ), Overlord's Bloodmail ( ), Lifesteal/Spell Vamprism ( item 3144 item 3153 item 1083 item 3812 item 1055 item 2140 item 3146 item 3156 item 3139 item 3074 item 3181 item 3072 item 1053 item 3145 item 3152 ), you are prolonging your life much more than if you had flat health. For example, the Ruby Crystal gives you 150 health and a Health Potion regenerates 150 Health, but if you pop a Health Potion at the beginning of a fight against a %health true damage user, you will survive longer than the person with a Ruby Crystal. I believe that if you have a shield at the beginning of the fight, you will not prolong your life, but if you shield just as you are about to die, then you will live much longer. So item 3401 item 3190 item 3053 and item 3040 have a chance to prolong your life, with a higher overall boost to survivability the less life you have. (So in this regard, I don't believe item 3072 or item 3112 help you.) Also, lastly, item 3026 is another counter, being able to heal 33% of your life after you die.

So that's healing and shielding.

What you can also do is stop the enemy from attacking. This can come from attack speed slows ( item 3082 item 3143 item 3110 ), invulnerability ( item 3157 ), or outmaneuvering the champion (all those boots and movespeed items). (The enemy can't attack you if you're not in range). Lastly, damage. If tankiness isn't going to help you as much as you'd like, then just try to kill the %hp true damage user before he or she kills you. "Death is the best cc."

So basically, you can counterbuild %hp true damage. It's difficult, but possible.

This is also exactly what it's meant to be - difficult. It's not supposed to be something that you're trying to counterbuild. You don't counterbuild to fight the true damage, you counterbuild to fight other aspects of the champion, and if you don't want to/can't do that, then you build to your champion and to your allies. %HP true damage is in the game because there need to be some champions that hard-counter tanks. Because of its nature, it is also effective against lower-health targets. That is okay. Not everything needs a counter. As long as it is balanced, it can exist in the game. For example, Guardian Angel is has an uncounterable passive. You can stun a person who has Zhonya's Hourglass and kill him before he or she is unstuck, or you can kill the person so quickly that the person has no time to react. These methods are inapplicable to Guardian Angel - the person will respawn, and will have a chance to get out alive. However, despite being uncounterable, Guardian Angel is a balanced item.

Same with the concept of %Health True Damage.

(I edited in Sterak's Gage and Seraph's Embrace as shielding items after I saw a comment from Quinn of Yuri. Though that comment wasn't meant specifically for me, thanks! I forgot about those.)

lolipopevelynnFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You CAN counter it!!!!!!!!!!!! you need a shield ;) so is ac ounter right?

those shields arnt strong enough. doesnt even block half of vaynes true damage.

AeszarckFeb 9, 20162 votes

Doesn't mean it doesn't mitigate some of the damage. You said that it is "impossible to build against" and that no defensive item can defend against it. This person provided an item that mitigates true damage, and though it doesn't mitigate much, it's still there. Now, Locket of the Iron Solari is intended to provide a group shield. It can't be very strong on its own. Are you asking for a buff on it? What about Face of the Mountain or Seraph's Embrace? Those are some substantially stronger shields. Sterak's Gage gives yet another shield, and it's a pretty decent one.

Instead of shutting down people who provide evidence contrasting your point ("oh, that item's shield is basically trash"), be the bigger guy and say "I don't think that the shield on that item is very effective, but it is an effective counter to %HP true damage."

Anu3isIIFeb 8, 20162 votes

The thing is that you particularly take only one stat from the whole kit of a champion.

Vayne has true damage every three hits on me. Until she procs it, she deals Physical Damage, maybe she even Crits on me, dealing 1k Physical Damage, while the true damage barely tickles compared to that.

So overall, True %HP Damage just make defensive stats less effective, while the whole kit of that champion can be countered, making him/her less powerful by buying the respective defensive items.

About Fiora... I think her ult is the biggest problem. She can proc 5 passives (jump, proc passive, then ult and do your jumpy dance again) in an 1v1, resulting in a pretty much overkill. I would make her ult to check the last time she hit Vitals in the last 5 seconds, making her unable to use her ult on that current target if she proc'ed one Vital. If you challenge somebody, at least challenge him/her from the start of the fight!