Eve and Rengar have practically the same gameplay pattern, why does Rengar get away with it?

RedCyclone·Dec 11, 2015·74 votes·5,470 views

and why does Eve still take nerfs even though she really isn't a problem?

178 Comments

Variks the LoyalDec 11, 201554 votes

Rengar's is tied to his ult, which has a long cooldown at rank 1.

ViashinoWizardDec 12, 20158 votes

Eve also doesn't give you a big "!" over your head to let you know she's incoming.

TwinkieProDec 12, 201515 votes

In the same range, she is visible, and doesnt leap, and doesnt delete as quickly. but still, all in his ult that squishy kitty.

Silents429Dec 12, 20152 votes

Except you can see Rengar with wards

doombotMECHADec 12, 20151 votes

pinks are 75g. your argument is invalid.

Silents429Dec 13, 20153 votes

It is not invalid and you damn well know that.

Eve comes to the bush in lane and removes the ward, Now what the hell do you do? Recall and buy another? Then she is forcing money out of you simply by existing, it's not fair at all.

Regarding Rengar being seen by wards, I mean you can ward the river with a trinket and see him coming unlike Eve.

insaiyanbaccaDec 12, 20156 votes

yeah, you can place your ward so you can see him when he jumps on you and deletes you in less then a second :D

RalanrDec 11, 201537 votes

Because Eve has permanent invisability pre-6.

Lady HammerlockDec 12, 201515 votes

{quoted}

Because Eve has permanent invisability pre-6.

That still doesn't explain the whole story, rengar has hard cc eve doesn't rengar has sustain eve doesn't there's more time to react to an Eve then there is to a rengar they both suck when behind rengar has an instant gap closer rather then a speedboost actually... he has both

YumaS2AstralDec 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

That still doesn't explain the whole story, rengar has hard cc eve doesn't rengar has sustain eve doesn't there's more time to react to an Eve then there is to a rengar they both suck when behind rengar has an instant gap closer rather then a speedboost actually... he has both

Rengar doesn't have hard CC. Unless you count snare as a hard CC.

JedenVojakDec 12, 20156 votes

Yes, snare is hard CC. Hard CC is CC that locks people down - things like blinds, slows, and silences are soft CC as the people can still run.

YumaS2AstralDec 12, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Yes, snare is hard CC. Hard CC is CC that locks people down - things like blinds, slows, and silences are soft CC as the people can still run.

There are people who consider hard CC to be any CC that interrupts channeling abilities, something that snares can't do.

SaphixiaDec 12, 201514 votes

a snare is hard cc

The GovernerDec 12, 20155 votes

Hard cc refers to cc that removes all of the control to your champion. A snare is definitely not hard cc, as you can still cast some of the abilities (and auto attack as long as an enemy unit gets into auto attack ranges) when you are snared.

MelledoneusDec 12, 20152 votes

EDIT: Please dispense of downvotes here. Do NOT throw away recyclables.

The GovernerDec 12, 20155 votes

You are wrong. Root or snare doesn't cancel channels. There are exceptions, but all of the exceptions consist of movement, which is why they can be cancelled: Shen's ultimate, teleport, Vi's Q, Zac's E, etc.... You can try casting Rengar's E, Morgana's Q, etc... on Katarina when she is ulting. It won't stop her ultimate.

Only something equivalent to a stun, in terms of power, can stop channels, apart from the exceptions I named above.

Read the classifcations of hard and soft cc in terms of disruption here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Crowd_control#Categorization . You may have to scoll down a bit to see "Disruption" of channels.

OyddAWqJ5rDec 12, 20152 votes

Still, a root is most definitely hard CC. Anything that completely restricts some part of a champion is hard CC.

By that definition, the only soft CC's would be Blind and Slow.

Ofcourse, both hard CC and soft CC were never terms that have actually been used to define what a CC effect is and therefore are subject to individual interpretation. But I think the most widely accepted use of the term is as I have defined above.

Honestly I think there needs to be another middle ground term as when you hear "hard CC" you usually think "total lock-down" or something of the sort--in which Snare, Disarm and Silence hardly seem to fit into yet at the same time equally don't fit into the category of soft or "minor" CC as being locked in place definitely doesn't feel "soft".

MelledoneusDec 12, 20153 votes

Hm... fair point. Sorry, I was in a rush, so I forgot to think of Katarina. I was thinking of Fiddlesticks and Xerath as my examples. But something that bothers me is that snares should technically stop Katarina from spinning, so that doesn't make sense logically...

Then again, this is a game where a pirate with pistols hurts more than getting hit by a literal mountain.

SaphixiaDec 15, 20151 votes

wait so does that mean that the only form of hard cc is stuns knockups and stuns?

The GovernerDec 16, 20151 votes

Hard Crowd Control (in terms of "loss of control", the most objective criterion) includes: Airborne Forced Action Stasis Stun Suppression Suspension

Forced Action refers to Charm, Fear, Flee, Taunt.

It's not as rare as you think.

SaphixiaDec 16, 20151 votes

ty for this, wasnt to sure

YuGiHoDec 11, 201519 votes

Because Riot hates eve, its the truth

A Miss FortuneDec 12, 201516 votes

Rengar only has invisibility on his ultimate while Evelynn has permanently invisibility.

Though Rengar has more damage, tankiness, sustain, mobility, clearing, scaling, crowd control, and range than Evelynn.

But yeah lets nerf the hooker.

TeemoXNidaleeDec 11, 201515 votes

Because Evelynn has Rengar ultimate on her passive.

Phuc Dat BichDec 12, 201518 votes

{quoted}

Because has ultimate on her passive.

i didnt knew that evelynn can jump from 1000 units on a target

I guess i miss something

Hyrum GraffDec 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phuc Dat Bich,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhcKQJEx,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2015-12-12T05:16:34.508+0000)

i didnt knew that evelynn can jump from 1000 units on a target

I guess i miss something

You have around the same window of reaction between seeing eve and seeing that ! over your head, before they're on top of you.

LeadpaintchipsDec 12, 20157 votes

the difference is, you know where Eve is coming from, Rengar is from stealth. That knowing where they are coming from is huge, and don't knock that jump, because getting a melee champ into melee is an additional second of damage.

NegusInParisDec 12, 20154 votes

And Eve doesn't kill you in 0.1 seconds

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhcKQJEx,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2015-12-12T07:07:41.897+0000)

You have around the same window of reaction between seeing eve and seeing that ! over your head, before they're on top of you.

That is blatantly false. you always have at least 1.5 seconds to react to evelynn. You know why people don't see eve? Lack of awareness. you would gank them just as hard as Warwick without his ult.

want to avoid dying to eve? here is how. walk away

Handin Out NapsDec 12, 20151 votes

Nah I'm pretry sure people don't see eve because SHE IS IMMUNE TO EVERY WARD THAT ISNT A PINK, that's just my 2 cents though.

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Nah I'm pretry sure people don't see eve because SHE IS IMMUNE TO EVERY WARD THAT ISNT A PINK, that's just my 2 cents though.

People don't see Evelynn until one of two things happens.

She enters 700 range of them. Where she cannot use a single ability
Pink ward sees her.

If you aren't noticing Eve in scenario 1, that is your fault for having tunnel vision. If you don't notice her with number 2? You're still at fault for tunnel vision.

TeemoXNidaleeDec 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phuc Dat Bich,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhcKQJEx,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2015-12-12T05:16:34.508+0000)

i didnt knew that evelynn can jump from 1000 units on a target

I guess i miss something

The jump is Rengar passive, not his ult.

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The jump is passive, not his ult.

His ult let's him jump without a bush

TakazakiDec 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhcKQJEx,comment-id=0006000100010000,timestamp=2015-12-12T12:12:16.868+0000)

His ult let's him jump without a bush

No his passive is the jump the ult is stealth, he CAN jump or he could ESCAPE.

Bears Dont CareDec 12, 20154 votes

{quoted}

No his passive is the jump the ult is stealth, he CAN jump or he could ESCAPE.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. "HIs passive is the jump... nyah nyah nyah"

Seriously? You want to nitpick details? Let's have a serious discussion, not fall down to nitpicking for the sake of adding a +1 to one's post count.

Fact of the matter is as a champion, Rengar is far superior to Evelynn in every way. Outsustains. Out damages. Out tanks. Out manuevers. More utility.

Evelynn is there for the sake of annoying people, not because she is an overpowered champion. You know when was the last time she was overpowered? When she could stack DFG with her ult and kill you just as fast as Rengar does now.

DFG got removed. Her ult's damage got gutted. She was never a problem since, until the bronzies forgot how to properly play the game.

Lady HammerlockDec 12, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phuc Dat Bich,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhcKQJEx,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2015-12-12T05:16:34.508+0000)

i didnt knew that evelynn can jump from 1000 units on a target

I guess i miss something

i didn't realize eve could kill you in less then a sec

FortisDominusDec 12, 20159 votes

LOL bruh rengar got nerfed so much since his rework (which took alot away from his kit to begin with like triple Q and split pushing)

the bug when rengar would q mid leap got removed (which is a nerf)

riot put in global cooldowns inbetween rengars abilities so enemies had counterplay

the ult cooldown nerfs

the Q nerfs

the indicator for when rengar was ganking got more range so people knew he was coming before rengar could even jump on them

These are just a few Rengar is not getting away with anything trust me, the recent patches only made rengar viable again

SammystormDec 12, 20152 votes

AP rengar got gutted. RIP roar rengar.

Joe DreddDec 12, 20152 votes

It's still viable.

Sir YamazukiDec 12, 20155 votes

{quoted}

LOL bruh rengar got nerfed so much since his rework (which took alot away from his kit to begin with like triple Q and split pushing)

the bug when rengar would q mid leap got removed (which is a nerf)

riot put in global cooldowns inbetween rengars abilities so enemies had counterplay

the ult cooldown nerfs

the Q nerfs

the indicator for when rengar was ganking got more range so people knew he was coming before rengar could even jump on them

These are just a few Rengar is not getting away with anything trust me, the recent patches only made **rengar viable again **

Rengar hasn't ever been not viable. The "changes" has had very little impact on his soloq performance other than having his pick rate increase, as his win rate when played well is almost the same exact as it was throughout the entirety of season 5. He's always been better than Eve, even when Riot said Eve was op because Eve mains were winning 57% of the time in higher ranks Rengar mains were winning almost 60%.

Red RyuDec 12, 20159 votes

{quoted}

and why does Eve still take nerfs even though she really isn't a problem?

Because she actually won games at worlds.

/jk.

Because they aren't the same play pattern. Eve has stealth at level 1, Rengar does not, Eve does not give you a warning she is near, Rengar does.

I play Eve jungle mostly but still there is a key difference.

Akali is SO HOTDec 12, 20157 votes

Rengar needs his ult to kill you instantly. Eve can do it whenever she wants because it's on her passive instead. She completely bypasses wards which makes her gameplay completely unfun to play against which is why she is nerfed every time she becomes strong.

ADepressedLeonaDec 12, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhcKQJEx,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2015-12-12T02:51:15.491+0000)

Rengar needs his ult to kill you instantly. Even can do it whenever she wants because it's on her passive instead. She completely bypasses wards which makes her gameplay completely unfun to play against which is why she is nerfed every time she becomes strong.

I've never been 100-0'd in less than a second by Eve. Eve also can't leap to me from a billion miles away

Joe DreddDec 12, 20154 votes

Eve doesn't need a 150 cd ult or be level 6 t o gank a warded lane

Akali is SO HOTDec 12, 20157 votes

She doesn't 100-0 you like Rengar does but she still kills you pretty damn fast when she's strong. Really hard to get away from her and just her existence makes it very hard to push your lane without having to worry about a gank

ADepressedLeonaDec 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhcKQJEx,comment-id=001200000002,timestamp=2015-12-12T08:15:16.314+0000)

She doesn't 100-0 you like Rengar does but she still kills you pretty damn fast when she's strong. Really hard to get away from her and just her existence makes it very hard to push your lane without having to worry about a gank

I mean, I agree that Eve's passive stealth is insanely strong, it lets her bypass trinket wards and SS, which is pretty ridiculous. But, I find it a million times more frustrating to play against a Rengar than I ever do an Evelynn, even if that Eve gets fed and starts snowballing. At least I get to see Eve before she's in my face (Sooner if she W's too early) so I have a chance to fight back/escape

With Rengar, as a squishy, you literally feel like there's nothing you can do. You can't fight back because true sight doesn't apply to him, you most certainly can't run from him, and you can't fight back when he reveals himself because he kills you faster than your champ can autoattack. It's incredibly frustrating to deal with lol

NiyumiDec 12, 20155 votes

Eve has the same problem that Illaoi, Azir, Darius, Fiora and all them have: They make you think and -actually counterplay them- instead of just building an armor/MR item and clicking your way to victory. In League, people don't like to think at all, and so whenever a champion forces people to think, they get upset.

Eve forces you to watch all the lanes on your map, rather than just your own, and she forces you to put pink wards (or just SMART wards in places she won't be stealthed at) in order to see her movements between lanes.

As an Eve main (in the jungle. I'm a fill main so I have mains for every role :P), I can't tell you how much I get fed because of peoples' stupidity. I gank someone because they're pushing the lane super far, I watch them blow all their cooldowns, and then I jump on them. Wanna guess what happens 5 minutes later? The same. Exact. Thing. And then I get told that I'm broken and OP and all that. And then, when I see a lone ADC wandering around the jungle and blow EVERYTHING I HAVE to kill them near instantly, I'm told, yet again, that I'm oh so broken, when literally every jungler does the same exact thing.

Honestly, Eve isn't even that strong unless a really good player is using her. They just can't put a ward down and be invincible to ganks from her, so they cry about her, and say her stealth is broken, and all that. Eve just punishes bad players, and those bad players cry. I don't see an issue with that. But, Riot wants to make as much money as humanly possible (as if BILLIONS a year isn't enough...), so they'll nerf Eve to the ground, take away every item she likes, all that, so that the kiddies can stop crying and throw more money at Riot.

I'm just enjoying Eve while I still have her. 'cause, eventually, she won't be Eve anymore. They'll rework her into a "less toxic" (have I ever mentioned that I really hate that word? Toxic. Who the hell even says that, outside of whiny little brats in League?) champion that isn't even the same as what made Eve herself. May as well just give her a new name and delete the real Eve from the game.

SithesisLordDec 16, 20151 votes

True. I played Eve a lot in the tank meta. She's fun.

item 1401 item 3151 OP

It´s pretty hilarious when Riot and pretty much everyone else say Eve has a toxic mechanic. It´s a perma-stealth, so what?

Exactly like you said, it makes people think. In a way, her perma-stealth is a form of CC because of that.

I´m really starting to think Kayle's gonna be joining the 'champs we hate' list at Riot too. Dunno. Just a gut feeling. Literally. The feeling they´re gonna gut the angel.

Dominick DestineDec 11, 20152 votes

Evelynn hasn't been nerfed since Dark Frenzy got a mana cost of 40... and as far as nerfs go, that is arguably the smallest nerf Evelynn has ever gotten.

Don't tempt Riot, they will Olaf her into Eve tier again. Leave Evelynn alone, she is perfectly fine.

PrimaquariusDec 12, 20152 votes

Eve has no combat presence, no high burst, no real sustain, no health, no good waveclear....the list goes on, but Eve is totally balanced in the company's eyes only because of her passive.