It makes absolutly O sense for Lee Sin to have one of the highest base movespeeds in the game

RedCyclone·Mar 20, 2015·180 votes·7,315 views

champion who gets 2 gapclosers on a low cooldown should not have a ridiculous 350 base movement speed

and he is blind

123 Comments

Tentacle LoveMar 20, 201536 votes

Have you seen blind people in real life? It's scary how fast they run around and teleport.

They have to be put on a leash and given a seeing eye dog to hold them back.

PhrixscreothMar 20, 201516 votes

This is truth. As masters of mind over matter, since they cannot see the obsticles, the obsticles do not exist for them. The world bends around them and provides a straight clear path to their goal. They can thusly move much faster than us normal folks for they do not have to worry about turning- the world does it for them.

RenailleMar 20, 201516 votes

Of course it makes sense. Riot wants him to be extremely mobile, hence why they gave him two conditional dashes and a high base movement speed.

GunpointMar 21, 20157 votes

and... everything else.

XysMar 20, 201510 votes

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AnidanMar 20, 201519 votes

Uhm.. I'm not even the OP and I don't get what you're on about. He seriously only said it makes no sense. He said he should not have the movement speed he does. He did not, however, clamor for nerfs, or call Lee OP. Yeah, it's crying, but it's not even close to the worst. Go try to oppose a circlejerk in a thread that's literally only butthurt cries for nerfs. You have quite a pick of the litter in that pursuit.

I haven't seen someone call Lee OP since the tank junglers were buffed. Funny how that works.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 20, 20152 votes

Now that you mention it, I don't see Lee Sin in as many of my games now that tanks have come back into the thought process of Jungle Picks... Wow. For once I might actually have to say that Lee Sin might be losing his touch. What do you think about the Jungler Picks with the addition of Cinderhulk?

AnidanMar 20, 201512 votes

My favorite part is before the addition of Cinderhulk, some people were saying things along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing slightly): "As long as Lee Sin is viable, tanky junglers never can be." Well, look how well that turned out. Lee Sin is still viable, though not overbearing, and tanky junglers are viable as well. So, yeah.

And I personally think it's a great addition to tanky jungler item list. It's a return the 25% bonus health they had from the Golem item, and a wonderful aid to their clearing after they finally get it. With Bami's being a nice, cheap pick-up along the way they get much needed early clear help, as well.

Overall, I think tank junglers, for the most part, are in a pretty good place with the addition of Cinderhulk. You might get a few outliers that are either weaker or stronger than others, but I don't think that really makes the good points any worse for wear. Sejuani was strong before the change, stronger now that Cinderhulk has been introduced, and I'd like to believe it really benefits the occasional Mundo, Sion and Cho'gath as well. Amumu with it should be interesting. I haven't personally seen it in action on him, though I know he can grab either that or the Magus upgrade if he wants.

Jungler picks with the addition of Cinderhulk might just be a bit more expansive, with tanks now making up a good portion of the returning to vogue list. I frickin' approve is what I'm saying, honestly.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 20, 20155 votes

I understand, the Cinderhulk was the best thing done with the Jungle diversity since the original preseason changes. I did see a Mundo Jungle the other day too! It was an odd sight, but it was very cool to see something different. Cinderhulk on Amumu is pretty good, but he has enough base numbers to not need as much AP as he does need health to stay in the fray longer. It was pretty funny when I was Sion once, and I got Bami's Cinder, and I was like "WTF why are these wolves getting all pissed off at me?" "Oh that's right, I have the Sunfire-effect!" I'm glad I don't see Lee Sin everytime... Seriously, I was happy I was able to play Amumu once and be able to almost BEAT him in a 1v1... and we were at the same level and at the same amount of health too.

I Main SwainMar 21, 20151 votes

so let me get this straight. a resourceless champion with high base damage, high scalings, mixed damage, high cc, heavy mobility, high sustain, a shield, assassination capabilities, fighting capabilities, peeling capabilities, and unparalleled escaping abilities is NOT op?

please, explain your incredible logic there, because I think you're the only one here who thinks that avg win rate = balanced.

and actually, he kindof IS a top tier jungle right now. has been for years. there's a difference between "no longer in every other match" and "not top tier"

XysMar 21, 20152 votes

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I Main SwainMar 21, 20151 votes

did I say karma is balanced? as a karma player, I honestly think that her q damage is way too high considering its low cd, utility, and low mana cost.

and you're right, listing off a champ kit doesn't make a champ seem over powered. his kit being over powered makes it over powered. just because tanks are top tier doesn't mean lee sin isn't top tier as well.

XysMar 22, 20151 votes

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Troy242621Mar 22, 20151 votes

I think his pick/ban rate over several seasons by pros and high ELO players is pretty telling, although I will grant that Lee isn't as overpowered as he is made out to be. Now that being said, I also disagree with people saying that he's fine.

XysMar 22, 20151 votes

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Troy242621Mar 22, 20151 votes

You used three champions that are all questionable in balance as your point of reference. Vi, Thresh, Zed and LeBlanc are all frequently complained about for their balance issues.

You're muddying your own point by using examples like this.

XysMar 22, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Troy242621Mar 22, 20151 votes

Well given that Riot nerfed them and pre-nerf pros used them (And still do -_-), I'm guessing their views have more merit than yours.

FuIlmute AllMar 20, 201510 votes

He actually has 350 MS LOL

RedCycloneMar 21, 20156 votes

oh shit that he does, its zed who has 345 right? another champion who just does not need it

WhiteFireOCNMar 21, 20152 votes

At least for Zed, it makes sense, since ninjas / assassains are supposed to quick and agile. (Not saying that Zed isn't too strong)

But for Lee, a blind guy should not be faster than a ninja :P

I'd like to see Shen get some movespeed buffs, he only has 335. Hell, this is his joke:

 "If light travels so fast, how come it's never caught a ninja?"

Raja ChachkiMar 21, 20152 votes

let's give Lee a cane and 300 ms

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 21, 20152 votes

Buffs travel at the speed of light. And THAT'S why Shen hasn't seen any in so long...

thinking manMar 20, 20157 votes

What would they buff in return?

Cosmic WarperMar 20, 201540 votes

{quoted}

What would they buff in return?

Nothing. Not everyone needs compensatory buffs

wa1fuMar 20, 201571 votes

He should be compensated. Like Veigar

ThatAutofillSuppMar 21, 20157 votes

Velkoz i see what you did ther- Gets Hit by a train

BlackRavenMar 20, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GrQL7uM0,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-03-20T20:05:05.927+0000)

Nothing. Not everyone needs compensatory buffs

thats exactly why you arent on the balance team. should we remove nidalees cougar form and just keep her in human form with no compensation? thats how it is for people so eager to just nerf champions.

Cosmic WarperMar 20, 201519 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Lee Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GrQL7uM0,comment-id=000300000002,timestamp=2015-03-20T21:03:34.848+0000)

thats exactly why you arent on the balance team. should we remove nidalees cougar form and just keep her in human form with no compensation? thats how it is for people so eager to just nerf champions.

We're not talking about abilities, we're talking about base MS nerfs. Vi received base MS nerfs along with her ultimate damage nerf at level 6 and 11. No compensation. You don't see people whining about it because it was well deserved for her kind of mobility. Same thing goes for lee sin. He doesn't NEED high base MS to function as he has tons of mobility in his kit.

BlackRavenMar 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GrQL7uM0,comment-id=0003000000020000,timestamp=2015-03-20T21:06:40.362+0000)

We're not talking about abilities, we're talking about base MS nerfs. Vi received base MS nerfs along with her ultimate damage nerf at level 6 and 11. No compensation. You don't see people whining about it because it was well deserved for her kind of mobility. Same thing goes for lee sin. He doesn't NEED high base MS to function as he has tons of mobility in his kit.

for example some compensation could be fixed his shitty ass ulti which is so damn glitchy. you could put 5 people right nex to eachother, the ulti would push out the 3rd one and ignores the others. honestly man that shit is annoying and needs to be fixed.

Cosmic WarperMar 20, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Lee Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GrQL7uM0,comment-id=00030000000200000000,timestamp=2015-03-20T21:10:45.305+0000)

for example some compensation could be fixed his shitty ass ulti which is so damn glitchy. you could put 5 people right nex to eachother, the ulti would push out the 3rd one and ignores the others. honestly man that shit is annoying and needs to be fixed.

Well that kind of stuff (bug fixes) can be done at any time. Doesn't really need to be compensation.

BlackRavenMar 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GrQL7uM0,comment-id=000300000002000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-20T21:17:45.649+0000)

Well that kind of stuff (bug fixes) can be done at any time. Doesn't really need to be compensation.

it counts as compensation for hwo old it is and how it still hasnt been fixed.

OneDrunkGuyMar 21, 201531 votes

Quinn

LeeDarkMar 21, 20156 votes

No, that's why YOU aren't on the balance team. If you think nerfing the movespeed of someone who has the highest base movespeed in the game, alongside two gap closers and an AoE slow is AT ALL comparable to taking away someone's ult and not replacing it with anything, they you are dumber than your name makes you seem.

Ariel the CruelMar 21, 20154 votes

Master Yi and Pantheon have the highest base move speed. There are a few others who can increase their base move speed higher than that (Gangplank, Sivir, etc.)

Lee has tier 2 move speed, which is shared with 8 other champions. Which is still baffling.

Skystrike7Mar 20, 20152 votes

Veigar is still waiting for his 'compensation' buffs from losing DFG.

Ariel the CruelMar 21, 201512 votes

But he got them. Increased difficulty on his skill shots. Ratio reduction on his ult. And delayed cast on his stun.

"buffs"

The same type of "buffs" they should give Lee.

LlaniteMar 20, 20155 votes

Both leaping and running associate with having strong/flexible leg muscle. People who are good at one, should be good at the other.

I don't object a LS nerf though.

KaisadiIIaMar 21, 20155 votes

should not have a ridiculous 345 base movement speed

He has not.

Actually, he has 350.

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 20, 20153 votes

Why doesn't it make sense? He is agile; it makes more sense that he would be fast than slow. As for balance, he is pretty damn weak in my opinion. As soon as I see a lee lock in on my team I mentally prepare myself for a hard game.

KaisadiIIaMar 21, 20154 votes

Movement speed is not based on a champion "looking" agile or immobile. Anivia has 325, and she looks far more agile than Lee Sin. Anivia 450 MS ritoplz.

Movement speed is pretty related to how the game works: Lee Sin has to constantly stick onto his target, and he's melee so he has 350 movement speed. Anivia is ranged and she doesn't even has to stick onto his target, so her movement speed is slower.

NullDragonMar 20, 20152 votes

Lee sin is sustained and (not supposed to be) burst. Because of his passive. Thus, he needs the high movespeed to keep his autos up with his passive.

Yes, this does mean that his burst should likely be removed or nerfed. Or his passive changed. One of the two.

UiruMar 20, 20158 votes

That's a hard argument to make with execute damage and 200% bonus AD in your kit.

What he's "supposed" to be is good at everything. It's the whole reason he's been complained about for so long. ~Uiru

AnidanMar 21, 20151 votes

Question out of randomness: What would happen to Lee if the base/ratio on the ult went down, but he could have the damage stack back up again on the target he kicks by hitting more allies, while people who get hit by the newly projectile ally take only the lowered base/ratio?

It was a thought I had, but thought I'd ask someone who knows Lee a bit more, since I don't excel in single champion balance or design.