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Reminder than Ignite + electrocute alone = nearly 40% of max hp gone

Malak··45 votes·13,031 views

At lvl 6: Ignite does 205 damage. Electrocute does at least 110 damage (more depending on ad)

315 damage right there.

Typical mage max hp at lvl 6: 825 (lux) 867(velkoz) 867(brand)

36% of velkoz's max hp is gone to Ignite and Electrocute. Gets worse for adcs and supports.

Now factor in minor runes, hextech revolver or serrated dirk passives, bonus ad from runes.

Over 400 free damage at least approaching nearly 50% of champion max hp at lvl 6. and then the natural burst assassins have... It becomes pretty clear that even a blind amputee monkey is going to get some 100-0 kills.

What I think should happen: Decrease Electrocute damage but also decrease the cooldown. Decrease Ignite cooldown significantly, but also reduce the damage significantly. Slightly reduce revolver/dirk damage

Why? This reduces their max burst, but decreases the time between their plays. So you'll see Assassins going for plays more often, but those plays should individually be less impactful.

So, if both players have their summoners up, the player with defensive summoners will be unlikely to die. However, there is a huge window of time where one player has Ignite up and the other does not even have barrier/heal ready.

61 Comments

Whisper8733 votes

I think it is actually a huge problem right now that the viability of champs right now is largely based on their efficacy with the keystone runes. I almost want to say lets get rid of keystones. Champ kits need to all be strong enough to stand on their own two legs.

Madsin2512 votes

This will never happen for one reason alone.

Reddit bitches for runes to be useful and powerful enough to stand on their own feet.

The sad part for us is that means they get to see 1k+ upvotes while this board barely reaches 250 for the best threads.

Illabethe4 votes

I'd argue against that point. While Electrocute builds generally DO have reliable kill strategies, they aren't the only strategy. In fact, there are plenty of ways to use runes on every champ to completely dominate.

I for instance rarely use Electrocute outside of Morgana or Zyra .

In fact, Phase rush is entirely viable on both, and actually works better on most TANKS than resolve primary runes do (I use Phase Rush on Ornn for instance.

But Phase Rush isn't a damage rune. It's a mobility rune. But it works. On so many champions.

If I'm afraid of divers, you'd be amazed how well Phase Rush works on Zyra I can run faster than any champ in the game on Zyra. That's how strong it is. It reduces your on board burst, but your damage output per game is about the same because you can risk a lot more engages/pokes.

Yeah. It doesn't exactly argue that Keystones are not playing a major role in champion efficiency, but you're referring to damage runes, and I can play at least 3-4 rune setups on any champion and be relatively effective, and many are not damage runes.

Verxint7 votes

Most of the time I feel more like I'm laning against the opponent's runepage, not their champion.

oortoomeebreesuu4 votes

Grasp Gangplank is a prime example. Isn't it interesting how they'll let GP totally abuse melee-only mechanics, but for some reason, Urgot can't?

Babakaman6 votes

Ehmmm, you expect someone to use their summoner spell (ignite) to try and kill you while you just tank their damage without using any resources except your abilities? That's kinda not fair, you know. Especially when there is such a wonderful summoner as BARRIER with the same cooldown as ignite. If you use it properly, no one will 100-0 as it will negate electrocute and part of ignite.

webstar19951 votes

i like how i said the same thing and got -10 on the comment LOL

tempname1305836 votes

even on champs with higher health 200 true damage for for pressing a button is ridiculous. then with the nerf to teleport and barrier/heal being so bad, and exhaust also sucking, why take anything except ignite?

then like you said add the damage you get from runes that you get for pretty much just playing the game.

what the hell.

Aimléss5 votes

I tend to survive all ins if my summoners are also up. And when they're down I hide under tower. I'd rather not have to hide under tower for longer. This free dmg needs to be reduced in general, for god's sake don't decrease the cds.

Marothennan5 votes

I agree that ignite + electro is bullshit but... why are we only comparing it to mage health pools? Why does every thread have to be that kind of thread... [zombie-nunu-bummed]

Malak2 votes

{quoted}

I agree that ignite + electro is bullshit but... why are we only comparing it to mage health pools? Why does every thread have to be that kind of thread... [zombie-nunu-bummed]

because assassins are most frequently played versus mages

Shablagoo5 votes

Because they counter them as they should

Ifneth5 votes

The problem is that assassins aren’t generally viable anywhere that they can’t abuse a weak laner in a short lane. Juggernauts, Divers, and Duelists will tank their burst, run them down, and then tower dive them. Tanks ignore them. Supports make their all-in fizzle. Marksmen, surprisingly, can poke them out of lane with a Support’s help.

Assassins want to sit mid, bully a mage, and then take advantage of solo-queue problems like tilt and lack of warding. It just doesn’t seem like a healthy playstyle when meta. :/

Shablagoo1 votes

I dont think thats unique to just assassins, certain marksmen have this playstyle compared to other marksmen, Draven for example same with Lucian. Darius as well, so do other poke mages who abuse there range compared to other mages. An assassins job is to pick off high priority low defense targets, so essentially they are working as intended, but it just upsets you so you think its unhealthy. Im sorry man but thats the way the game works.

Ifneth1 votes

Accusing the other person of being upset as an explanation for their opinion isn’t an argument, though being so rude can make them upset enough to justify it in your mind when they reply.

That said, no other class relies on having better laning than another class, which must almost always avoid interaction with them. Mages lose trades and all-ins, and assassins often have enough mobility to escape ganks. All the mage can do is farm and hope to poke.

It’s just not fun to lane against assassins, and once they have their Duskblade, Gunblade, or Lichbane, you just have to not be around them anymore for the rest of the game. Note, it’s not fun to play as them in late-game teamfights, either, but that only proves my point about unhealthy gameplay. They have to fall-off late not to be overpowered.

Recently, shorter game times have made that trade-off worth it. Hence the midlane assassin meta.

Shablagoo1 votes

I am saying that your view of it being unhealthy is purely you being upset about assassins being strong, and the real argument is that the play style assassins have isnt even just soley unique to assassins, I've given example of that yet for some reason you seem to purely highlight assassins when other mages have the same plays style. Does Xerath not bully people out of lane by poking them, ziggs even? Then there is examples of quinn and kayle who abuse melee opponents in the top lane, or examples like Draven and Lucian abusing people who have weaker early game dmg compared to them. There are examples of this in other lanes, assassins have the jungle and the midlane. They do essentially what kayle, quinn, darius, lucian, and Draven do. Why is it that you are not complain about them.

It is because you dont play against them so you do seem them to be unhealthy, you only choice whats unhealthy when its inconvenient for your playstyle. And because of that you arent even seeing logic but using emotion to base your opinions which makes your argument weak and almost sad because its just whinning.

The funniest thing is the assassin meta is almost gone http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics , https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Middle . Its obvious that you are upset because your set of champions is not dominate in the mid lane anymore. But you dont seem to understand that the whole game isnt just the laning phase, teamfights happen and thats where mages truly shine.

Ifneth1 votes

You keep accusing me of being upset for some reason, as though to imply that no-one could reasonably dislike playing against assassins, while ignoring the rest of my argument and the midlane tier list you cited. I will not be replying further.

Shablagoo1 votes

Because your argument is literally based on you feelings toward playing a certain sub-class in the game dislike means, a feeling of distaste or hostility. Which in turn makes you upset, for this reason you seem to completely ignore my reasoning as well, assassins are not the only champions who have this play style many other champions do too, but you specifically target assassin cuz you play against them and ignore them by saying "nah it doesnt fit my narrative so it doesnt matter". Your argument is emotional, so how am I going to find any reason in it?

gabetheguy4 votes

because the boards are a bunch of mage mains.

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

Mage main circlejerk

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhTIPKW2,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2018-07-25T01:19:31.857+0000)

Mage main circlejerk

Coming from the Assassin main.

https://i.imgur.com/X3b5umq.png

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

No idea what that has to do with the mage main circlejerk, but ok.

https://i.imgur.com/X3b5umq.png[/img]

Ceazaru1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhTIPKW2,comment-id=0003000300000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T08:31:31.423+0000)

No idea what that has to do with the mage main circlejerk, but ok.

https://i.imgur.com/X3b5umq.png[/img]

i'm not even a mage main and I think Assassins are pretty strong right now or at least Electrocute/ignite combo needs a nerf.

IRFodder1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that ignite + electro is bullshit but... why are we only comparing it to mage health pools? Why does every thread have to be that kind of thread... [zombie-nunu-bummed]

If people keep bringing up a problem, and it has a constant running theme, it is either a circle jerk, or an actual problem that people are picking up on. Just to dismiss something because it's viewed as, 'cool to hate on -blank- week', is irresponsible.

Marothennan1 votes

{quoted}

If people keep bringing up a problem, and it has a constant running theme, it is either a circle jerk, or an actual problem that people are picking up on. Just to dismiss something because it's viewed as, 'cool to hate on -blank- week', is irresponsible.

I'm not dismissing it, I started out by saying that I do agree it's bullshit. But can the boards stop fucking pretending that mages are the only champs that matter?

webstar19954 votes

First of all, this does not account for resistances. Second of all, every brand has at least a ruby crystal at lvl 6....theres at least 150 hp. Lastly, you have to get to the mage first. Talon was just nerfed again to make him balanced. Now take into account jg pressure and summoner spells.....ok its balanced.

Malak1 votes

{quoted}

First of all, this does not account for resistances. Second of all, every brand has at least a ruby crystal at lvl 6....theres at least 150 hp. Lastly, you have to get to the mage first. Talon was just nerfed again to make him balanced. Now take into account jg pressure and summoner spells.....ok its balanced.

Ignite is true damage and already accounts for 50% of the damage I'm referring to here. Also, staying at 100% hp is extremely unrealistic. So yes, there are a lot of factors missing.

pseudo dionysius2 votes

Talon was just nerfed again to make him balanced

lol

webstar19953 votes

He was. His W was nerfed by a lot.

The Taco Kat3 votes

If you take a Tiamat, there isn't much impact on him. He can still shove then roam as he did before.

webstar19951 votes

Yea but his W was a large part of his in lane poke. Yea i does not affect his push-roam ability, but his enemy laner wont be punished as much for stepping up

CppL1 votes

Why you saying brand? hes not even a mid laner anymore...

webstar19951 votes

Brand is in the original post.... vel koz is more of a support as well

Edge2P3 votes

Anyone can make a complaint about base damage output without factoring defensive items and defensive runes. It's called play smarter. Maybe idk go buy an item.

Sweet Tennessee3 votes

Make it so it isn't just go boneplating+chrysalis or lose all your hp from one trade. It's the main reason everyone took TP because god forbid an assassin dashes onto me and takes half my health at lvl 2

Red Wreckage3 votes

While I see myself possibly in agreement to what solutions you have provided for the problem you're trying to highlight...

I think I can present a better solution. Please allow me. It is a two step process.

  1. Stop playing Lux/Vel'kox/Brand

  2. Play Zed.

webstar19951 votes

Idk why the post listed 3 champs that are supports as mids.....lux is more of a mid yes but the other two are better supports lately

Shablagoo2 votes

I mean if they are able to get 3 separate hits in on you why should they not be rewarded?

Malak2 votes

{quoted}

I mean if they are able to get 3 separate hits in on you why should they not be rewarded?

Yea they can be rewarded with their normal damage but then they get 400 free damage on top of it.

Look, it's not just me saying this. Tons of posts are complaining about Assassins. I'm just explaining why

Shablagoo1 votes

So when you use your full kit plus summs and hit your keystone, you dont think you should be able to deal half their health? You do understand what your saying right? Your saying that if someone commits their kit into kill you you shouldnt die. Also electro isnt free because they have to hit you 3 separate times, ignite is free though. Ofc they complain about assassins because lost in lane and they snowballed, any champion can snowball, I just lost to an ez that snowballed.

Malak1 votes

{quoted}

So when you use your full kit plus summs and hit your keystone, you dont think you should be able to deal half their health? You do understand what your saying right? Your saying that if someone commits their kit into kill you you shouldnt die. Also electro isnt free because they have to hit you 3 separate times, ignite is free though. Ofc they complain about assassins because lost in lane and they snowballed, any champion can snowball, I just lost to an ez that snowballed.

Yea I'm okay with losing 50% of my hp. 100%? Don't think so. Also, Electro is free dude, hitting someone 3 times isn't hard.

remakoro1 votes

Two. Ignites procs new trunderlord.

Shablagoo1 votes

Well it is a separate hit so ya it makes sense.

Daddy Ants2 votes

Nerf the rune FIRST.

If after that the champions are still a problem (Zed, Talon in particular) then you look to hit the champions directly.

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

At lvl 6: Ignite does 205 damage. Electrocute does at least 110 damage (more depending on ad)

315 damage right there.

Typical mage max hp at lvl 6: 825 (lux) 867(velkoz) 867(brand)

36% of velkoz's max hp is gone to Ignite and Electrocute. Gets worse for adcs and supports.

Remember Electrocute's AD scaling is BONUS AD meaning it scales with AD purchased from items.

Electrocute's AP ratio applies to all AP the champion has (purchased and base)

By the time a Zed is level 6, what items does he realistically have?

item 3134 + like 1 or 2 item 1036

Dirk is 25. 2x Long Swords is 20.

So those items would add 22.5 damage to Electrocute before armor.

AD gained by leveling up is considered bonus AD also

Just tried in practice tool with those items.

At level 7 Electrocute was showing at 110 (+27)

Malak3 votes

{quoted}

Remember Electrocute's AD scaling is BONUS AD meaning it scales with AD purchased from items.

Electrocute's AP ratio applies to all AP the champion has (purchased and base)

By the time a Zed is level 6, what items does he realistically have?

item 3134 + like 1 or 2 item 1036

Dirk is 25. 2x Long Swords is 20.

So those items would add 22.5 damage to Electrocute before armor.

AD gained by leveling up is considered bonus AD also

?? you're not refuting my points at all. I said at least 110 + more depending on AD

Ceazaru1 votes

Welcome to Assassin meta.

Thefrostyviking5 votes

All we are really missing now is Kassadin being OP and we are back in season 3 x)

Ceazaru1 votes

{quoted}

All we are really missing now is Kassadin being OP and we are back in season 3 x)

well I missed that lol. I started playing league around the late season 4 or early season 5 time.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Well it was mostly the same, Darius was strong top, early game junglers were the freelo and botane was a murder feast for early game while midlane was assassins creed showdown with random burst mage invasions.

Well i write assassins but truthfully LB and Ahri were extremely common back then too.

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