AD vs AP Keystones

Malak·May 8, 2018·59 votes·18,150 views

I made a thread about this before but I thought it would be clearer if I compared some champions instead of just saying there are more ad runes and calling it a day.

As Yi I can go with: Press the Attack Lethal Tempo Conqueror Electrocute Dark Harvest Hail of Blades ??

There's more options but those are the ones used more often. Of course the precision ones are way better generally.

Now as Karthus: Summon Aery Arcane Comet

Both of which do the same shit..just Aery does a bit more poke damage so it's almost always used.

I didn't cherry pick Karthus or Yi here, nearly every mage has 1-2 choices for runes. Nearly every melee (except ad/ap casters) and adcs have a good amount of options.

So tell me why we need another rune for the group of champions with plenty of options already?

135 Comments

Step Sis LuxMay 8, 201862 votes

its not only runes, ad champions has better items too

MalakMay 8, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Step Sis Lux,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfN7UA4N,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-08T16:43:06.982+0000)

its not only runes, ad champions has better items too

Yea that doesn't help either

AirKingNeoMay 8, 20182 votes

AD has better items? How?

Step Sis LuxMay 8, 201820 votes

HOW? XD Guinsoo, qss, malmortius, this new item on pbe, Essence reaver after rework, rapid cannon, black cleaver u want me to keep going?

AirKingNeoMay 8, 20183 votes

yeah I list class specific items and pretend all AD champions can build them.

every AP champ can build every AP item with like 2 item exceptions. Meanwhile Stormrazor is Jhin/GP/a few ADC exclusive, Rageblade is part AP, QSS is ADC only (as MercScem is shit on everyone but an ADC), Rapidfire is ADC only, Cleaver is assassin bruiser only.

Step Sis LuxMay 8, 201814 votes

Show me normal ap with guinsoo QSS adc only? OKXDD Stormrazor ADC and GP? Yi? Trynda? Fiora? Cleaver assassin/bruiser? MF? lucian? We are not talking about which champion is gonna build this cuz they are all AD

And yes as u said, EVERY ap can build EVERY ap item, that means something dont u think?

AirKingNeoMay 9, 20183 votes

Kayle for starters.

Who else builds MercScem but ADCs?

Why would Fiora build it over heavy AD lifesteal.

Lucian and MF are unique cases.

It says AP items are flexible because all AP champions try to do is burst.

Step Sis LuxMay 9, 201820 votes

Kayle is normal typical ap champion? OK im gonna cut this here

Sp33d Zer0May 9, 20183 votes

It's almost like Different classes have different sub classes that make use of specific items to different extents.

TEA Nietzsche May 9, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Step Sis Lux,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfN7UA4N,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-09T01:01:04.704+0000)

Kayle is normal typical ap champion? OK im gonna cut this here

Silly argument - you need to differentiate between AP/AD carries and casters. There are only few AP carries, arguably only Kayle and Teemo right now while there are tons of AD carries.

Either way half of these items/runes that you say help 'AD' are completely and utterly useless for melee casters like Zed. How is it Zed's fault that AD carries get a bunch of keystones? How does it help him?

Sp33d Zer0May 9, 20184 votes

Guinsoo is an everyone item at this point. Go ahead and keep listing the others, but let's not pretend it's not good on ap champs.

Furthermore, if you really wanna be facetious: item 3157 = item 3139 item 3071 = item 3151 item 3100 = item 3078 item 3102 = item 3156

Want me to keep going?

Step Sis LuxMay 9, 20184 votes

Qss = zhonyia? U mean remove cc is like standing 2 sec in places and wait for death?

MilkyWay95May 9, 20183 votes

I'd really like to know in what world qss can save you from certain death against stuff likes Zed's Ult or Fizz Ult... Wait, it won't but Zhonias will! TBF both items have unique uses: Got hit by Ashe arrow? Just QSS you gucci Rengar jumping on you? Use Zhonias and let your team CC him so you can be save. Zhonias is harder to use and requires a competent team but that doesnt make it worse than QSS.

Moonfall SaberMay 10, 20181 votes

item 3026 = nothing item 3053 = nothing item 3074 = nothing item 1053 = nothing item 1051 = nothing

Sp33d Zer0May 10, 20181 votes

item 2065 = nothing item 3152 = nothing item 3030 = nothing item 3907 = nothing.

Honestly, I would put sterraks alongside item 3027 as a "here is something that gives you subclass everything you could want. Health to survive, your main damage source, but rod changes out a shield for mana pool and healing

Moonfall SaberMay 10, 20182 votes

item 3907 = item 3142 item 2065 is a support item item 3030 = item 3153 active is better item 3152 = imagine this shit on Darius

Raid Boss MordeMay 9, 20182 votes

Don't forget Exeuctioner's! They get grevious wounds for just 800 gold, while AP champs have to sink 3.1k gold just to get grevious wounds

AsterfixMay 8, 20189 votes

Not to derail but why would you go electrocute on yi but not Karthus?

Step Sis LuxMay 8, 20187 votes

cuz karthus is mostly press R champion and he needs something to follow his one hit R

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 8, 20187 votes

that's just wrong.

SaezioMay 8, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Step Sis Lux,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfN7UA4N,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-05-08T17:27:41.597+0000)

cuz karthus is mostly press R champion and he needs something to follow his one hit R

predator karthus pop active and then R :D

DarkwindMay 8, 201813 votes

The correct answer lies in Karthus's laning pattern. He does not reliably land 3 hits onto an opponent during lane. He lands one Q, then another Q, then a while later another Q. His early lane phase is extremely important to his overall strength, so he really has to maximize on Q damage at level 1. But you're not that likely to get three hits fast enough, so Aery or comet make much more sense.

underscores222May 9, 20184 votes

Fair enough for Karthus specifically, but other mages can take electrocute and get it off fairly consistently. Since OP was arguing that Karthus and Yi are representative of their class (mage/melee ad respectively) it would still be fair to include electrocute on the list of runes a general mage mid can use.

SpongebobIsLifeMay 9, 20183 votes

meh, not really. The only ones that I could think of that proc electrocute with the same ease as ad champs, would be Syndra, Orianna (q w auto/e). Lux I guess, but it's not as reliably procd.

My Waifu VanillaMay 9, 20183 votes

How is it easier to proc electrocute on someone like Zed than a mage? Both take 3 instances of damage which is the entire kit of both champions since Zed HAS to use his shadow no matter how you look at it unless you walk into melee range of him. Karthus can actually proc it easier than Zed and co because it only takes 1 Q since E+Auto each count once. Not trying to defend Electrocute Karthus (although it is fairly decent if you can bully the enemy lane opponent which are about half of karthus's match ups), but the idea that it is easier to proc electrocute on MELEE champions that also require hitting skillshots is a false claim.

SpongebobIsLifeMay 9, 20181 votes

oh yeah, he does, but it's just an easier combo to execute. Karthus electrocute is rather hard to proc bc you have to hit 3 qs consecutively in a short time frame, and in most situations where that could be a case, your opponent is either really bad or you just got outraded bc in most cases, your opponent will be standing in minions so your damage is equal to 3 aa's, whereas with someone else, say ahri? Q-auto-w equals very fast electrocute proc and burst damage.

If you use lux as an example, she cant easily proc her elec bc she has to hit q which is relatively hard to hit lane, but if she does hit, it can guarantee a kill.

SooFr0styMay 9, 20183 votes

You can auto, and I would assume his e procs u it.

OtterlyLostMay 8, 20185 votes

Literally picks an AP champion a tiny pool of people play to try and argue their point. And then when someone provides a more popular ap champ with a wider variety, completely changes his narrative to mages.

You want a mage that has an equally big pool of options then let's look at TF. Phase rush, Aery, Comet, fleet foot work, klepto, spellbook, press the attack, electrocute, dark harvest...

Literally could function and do fine with any and all of these options.

Just because mage players aren't creative doesn't mean there aren't keystone for them.

How about Zoe? Aery, comet, dark harvest, fleet footwork, spell book, klepto, electrocute.

ninjaroxasMay 8, 20182 votes

With your logic takeing pta on liss would be a good idea

DuskDaUmbreonMay 8, 20186 votes

Dude. That is probably about the biggest straw man I've seen in the past two months.

Raid Boss MordeMay 9, 20185 votes

Then you've never seen a fed Fiddlesticks

Malix FarwinMay 9, 20185 votes

AD champions use Comet and Aery as well.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 8, 20184 votes

You compared the most versatile AD champion ever...to the least versatile mage ever, who has no real rune for him right now.

Most mages have 2-4 good choices for keystones. Most AD champions also have 2-4 good choices.

Also, Tempo on Yi is kinda shit. It's something that seems good but just is terrible. You legitimately have less DPS with it against anyone that tries to kite you than with any other usable rune.

You did cherry-pick your champions. Don't pretend otherwise.

Let's compare Ezreal to Sona . Ezreal has pretty much just Klepto he can use, possibly Comet. Sona has Aery, Comet, Guardian, and Klepto, and possibly Spellbook or Electrocute. 2 to 6. Just like your Karthus:Yi comparison.

MalakMay 8, 201820 votes

{quoted}

You compared the most versatile AD champion ever...to the least versatile mage ever, who has no real rune for him right now.

Most mages have 2-4 good choices for keystones. Most AD champions also have 2-4 good choices.

Also, Tempo on Yi is kinda shit. It's something that seems good but just is terrible. You legitimately have less DPS with it against anyone that tries to kite you than with any other usable rune.

You did cherry-pick your champions. Don't pretend otherwise.

Let's compare to . Ezreal has pretty much just Klepto he can use, possibly Comet. Sona has Aery, Comet, Guardian, and Klepto, and possibly Spellbook or Electrocute. 2 to 6. Just like your Karthus:Yi comparison.

I just picked champions that I play dude.

Xerath, another mage with only arcane comet. Brand: Arcane Comet only yet again. Lux as well, although maybe she could run electrocute.

Sona is a support not a mage. Ezreal is hardly in the same category as other adcs given that he uses spells do to his damage, and as you pointed out he doesn't have a lot of options just like mages.

You're the one cherry picking here.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 8, 20185 votes

You didn't say "mages", you said "AP". I do believe that Ezreal is primarily AD, and Sona is primarily AP.

Lux has Aery as an option as well, and probably has Electrocute available.

Xerath and Brand, I don't know much about. I don't play them.

But, fine. Ezreal isn't a typical ADC. So Kog'maw. Again, two options: Press the Attack and Lethal Tempo.

You're the one cherry picking here.

You went out of your way to find someone with 5 viable keystones. Two of which (Conquerer and Press the Attack) do basically the exact same thing on him, so that's actually closer to 4.

MalakMay 8, 201815 votes

{quoted}

You didn't say "mages", you said "AP". I do believe that Ezreal is primarily AD, and Sona is primarily AP.

Lux has Aery as an option as well, and probably has Electrocute available.

Xerath and Brand, I don't know much about. I don't play them.

But, fine. Ezreal isn't a typical ADC. So Kog'maw. Again, two options: Press the Attack and Lethal Tempo.

You went out of your way to find someone with 5 viable keystones. Two of which (Conquerer and Press the Attack) do basically the exact same thing on him, so that's actually closer to 4.

Nah...now I know you're trolling dude.

Press the attack and Conqueror are completely different, first of all. In what world do you consider them to be similar??

I don't have to go out of the way to find you someone with 5 viable keystones...

Jax: Electrocute Press The Attack Conqueror Lethal Tempo Grasp of the Undying Kleptomancy (probably more but couldn't find any recent games of people using others)

That one has 6.

Miss Fortune: Fleet Footwork Conqueror Press The Attack Lethal Tempo (not popular) Arcane Comet Aery Dark Harvest(no clue why but people are using it in high elo) (She could probably use more effectively)

This one has 7.

Btw kogmaw also uses fleet footwork, in fact that's the most common keystone. But he could use many more, including comet which is sometimes picked up.

Witch of BabylonMay 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nah...now I know you're trolling dude.

Press the attack and Conqueror are completely different, first of all. In what world do you consider them to be similar??

I don't have to go out of the way to find you someone with 5 viable keystones...

Jax: Electrocute Press The Attack Conqueror Lethal Tempo Grasp of the Undying Kleptomancy (probably more but couldn't find any recent games of people using others)

That one has 6.

Miss Fortune: Fleet Footwork Conqueror Press The Attack Lethal Tempo (not popular) Arcane Comet Aery Dark Harvest(no clue why but people are using it in high elo) (She could probably use more effectively)

This one has 7.

Btw kogmaw also uses fleet footwork, in fact that's the most common keystone. But he could use many more, including comet which is sometimes picked up.

nobody takes lethal tempo on mf tho

Handy Sandy May 9, 20184 votes

to be fair you can take predator on karthus lol

ShablagooMay 9, 20183 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO8ngR4GHko , You cherry picked karthus completely from all mages, how about lux who can use, electro, phase, aery, comet, predator, and unsealed spell book. Realistically lux wouldnt use phase or predator though. But then reastically then kha only has dark harvest, electro, and predator. See? I cant chery pick too, certain champions can use all runes, for example diana a ap can use all of domination, all of socery, all of resolve, and alls of inspiration. You just picked a specific champion to reniforce your point, I do think though that mages could get another rune to use, like deathfires touch.

SirWittOfGreenMay 9, 20184 votes

Lux realistically has two she uses. Kha realistically uses three. Well that is more. You pick one ap champ and go see some champs can use all the runes. But which type of champ, AP or AD, has the most "can use all runes champs"? Because I think if we just compared both groups we would see that AD would win that category and it would probably win just each champion averaging more viable runes. Could it boil down to 2 runes vs 3 runes? It might. But once again that is still more.

dogehkiinMay 9, 20183 votes

The problem is that 50% of the runes are either Aa based. Aery, Comet or Phase rush can be effectively used by normal AD champs, Precision, Dark harvest and Grasp can't be effectively used by most AP, for AP Precision us for Azir and Hybrid Teemo or Jax, maybe Akali with Fotwork, and Dark harvest only for assasins that use Aa and go jungle.

The problem lies in Precision, too many runes for one role that force other roles to adapt to them.

TEA Nietzsche May 9, 20182 votes

I love how people conveniently ignore that essentially all AP champions are AP casters while AD casters and AD carries build very different items - and even then you'd have to differentiate melee and ranged carries.

An Orianna could use Lethal Tempo much better than Zed, but yes, totally an 'AD keystone', no questions asked.

BjørnetjenestenMay 13, 20182 votes

If Orianna uses lethal tempo she no longer play like a traditional mage, but an on-hit hybrid. Its not gonna work for most other mages and ap doesnt automatically proc on auto attacks, like ad does. You need an item item 3115 and even then its only measly 15% of your ap that procs per aa. Meanwhile ad champs get guaranteed 100% ad proc every aa and this is why people call it an "ad rune".

TEA Nietzsche May 13, 20181 votes

If Orianna uses lethal tempo she no longer play like a traditional mage

Meanwhile ad champs get guaranteed 100% ad proc every aa and this is why people call it an "ad rune".

Yes, 'AD champs' - how come you conveniently ignore my main point? If Zed uses lethal tempo ~~he is absolutely retar~~ no longer played like a traditional assassin.

It's not an 'AD rune' - it's an 'AS rune' that is mostly used by 'ADCs' - loads of AD champions have NO INTEREST in taking it.

BjørnetjenestenMay 14, 20181 votes

I feel like you are nitpicking and trying to find small examples that contradict the fact that Lethal Tempo is far better on MOST AD champs and works on SOME AP champs.

If Zed built normally (lethality/cleaver,GA) and went with lethal tempo, he would still do far more damage than Cassiopeia running lethal tempo.

Attack speed is inherently tied to AD and/or On-hit, since these are the damage types that procs on Autoattacks thereby scaling with attack speed. This is why most ADC's and On-hit champs can run lethal tempo and do just fine. Any bruiser/skirmishers (Who are mostly AD) could theoretically use lethal tempo for some great dueling potential. Jax Aatrox Fiora MasterYi Yasuo Tryndamere Trundle .

But dont tell me its a class neutral rune, cause its higly biased towards a certain type of champions that use AA... and AA happens to do 100% AD by default, modified by crits, on-hit items and certain passives that gives small ap scalings on-hit.

TEA Nietzsche May 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I feel like you are nitpicking and trying to find small examples that contradict the fact that Lethal Tempo is far better on MOST AD champs and works on SOME AP champs.

If built normally (lethality/cleaver,GA) and went with lethal tempo, he would still do far more damage than running lethal tempo.

Quite frankly, it seems that you are the one who is nitpicking. Zed doesn't utilize Fleet Footwork. He doesn't utilize Lethal Tempo. He doesn't even care about Conqueror. You are acting as if Zed players benefit in any way whatsoever from these runes but this is not the case. I don't care whether Zed utilizes Lethal Tempo 1.253% better than Lux or not, the point is that it's essentially equally good on both: it's terrible and not viable.

since these are the damage types that procs on Autoattacks thereby scaling with attack speed. This is why most ADC's and On-hit champs can run lethal tempo and do just fine. Any bruiser/skirmishers (Who are mostly AD) could theoretically use lethal tempo for some great dueling potential. Jax Aatrox Fiora MasterYi Yasuo Tryndamere Trundle .

I will just quote myself:

and even then you'd have to differentiate melee and ranged carries.

Great job in pointing out the notorious AD carries (+ Trundle who doesn't even build AD items anyways which makes your argument even weirder) while conveniently ignoring the AD **casters **that I have been talking about.

But dont tell me its a class neutral rune, cause its higly biased towards a certain type of champions that use AA... and AA happens to do 100% AD by default, modified by crits, on-hit items and certain passives that gives small ap scalings on-hit.

It's not a class neutral rune, "AD" and "AP" are not classes. Runes are indeed mostly biased towards certain types of champions..

BjørnetjenestenMay 15, 20181 votes

AD-casters can still use this rune reasonably well, since their whole kit (including aa) scales with AD

Tell me the number of champs with ad scaling that can utilize lethal tempo and do reasonably well in a game?

Count the number of ap-scaling champs that can do the same?

Now tell me who this rune is designed for?

TEA Nietzsche May 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

AD-casters can still use this rune reasonably well, since their whole kit (including aa) scales with AD

Tell me the number of champs with ad scaling that can utilize lethal tempo and do reasonably well in a game?

Count the number of ap-scaling champs that can do the same?

Now tell me who this rune is designed for?

Again, AD is not everything: not using a whole lot AA's is much more significant. Orianna is way better with Lethal Tempo than Zed.

Tell me the number of champs with ad scaling that can utilize lethal tempo and do reasonably well in a game?

AD scaling =/= AD caster. There are more mages being able to utilze lethal tempo decently than AD casters. Either way, you are still nitpicking: Zed would never pick Lethal Tempo, Fleet Footwork etc. Claiming that he profits of the existence of these Keystones in any way is simply wrong. He uses Electrocute which works for AP and AD equally.

Now tell me who this rune is designed for?

FOR CARRIES! Jesus. Zed is going to run Lethal Tempo as Orianna and that's whats relevant for this thread.

BjørnetjenestenMay 16, 20181 votes

Its not about AD-casters like zed, its about how many AD-champs vs AP-champs can effectively utilize this rune. Just look at the numbers and you will see that Lethal Tempo is designed for AD-champs.

TEA Nietzsche May 16, 20181 votes

Are you even reading what I'm writing? There is no mean bunch of AD champions sitting at a camp fire dancing around a bunch of 'AD keystones'. There are ranged AD carries using their own items and keystones, AD bruisers using their own keystones, AD casters using theirs and then melee AD carries using theirs. All these champions have very different needs and would like very different things which is why it makes no sense to claim "Lethal Tempo is designed for AD-champs".

AP champions, however, have way less variance as nearly every AP champion is a caster of some sort. Of course they do want somewhat different things but overall they typically build AP+CDR and have varying cooldowns and range on their abilities which is why they need several keystones but they do not need the diversity that physical damage dealers need.

There is exactly one thing missing in the current keystone setup for AP champions and that is DPS in extended fights, especially against tanks.