Can we have some real Tank Masteries and Items for this season?

Ravenous Howls··14 votes·1,405 views

I really don't care that this has probably been discussed 100 times but I want to know why we tanks/bruiser/fighters can't have % damage reduction vs CRIT or AOE spells? Better starting health, armor, MR? Why is everything meant for the tanky characters come with a addendum or caveat to their ability to resist aggressive carry picks?

Yay... for CoC only rocking the hard CC train leaving Juggernauts and fighters out of the mix for the most part. Fearless is a joke as most of us will still die before another 9 seconds pass and we get it's benefit again where as Fervor, Battle Trance, Double Edged sword and Bounty Hunter all got straight up buffs that can be applied without a CD restriction. RIP Oppressor being one of the few damage options that truly benefited a tank...

I would go into Siege Master but outside of lane phase the mastery is a waste. Also it's really not going to help that much against the myriad of top champions who can proc true damage or reduce your armor stats rather effortlessly like Vayne, Kayle, Fiora and Darius just to name a few.

Also what are we getting for items? How about a better Doran's Shield vs the large amount of poke that top lane sees anymore? Maybe we could survive if we had better items to mitigate the amount of safe free damage we take regularly? So far I've only seen a weak 100g drop for Frozen Heart and that's hardly consolation as the item is extremely niche on many champions.

I really feel like if you are melee champion you are basically outdated or niche b/c almost every ranged champion can do more damage and out sustain a tank better than well... a TANK! At this point it is almost better to invest in passive gold gain items just to ensure you get something out of the lane phase because you sure as hell can't contest farm in lane. Arguably the only real indirect buff we got was the nerf to early armor pen but I don't think that this will solve our issues.

There is really no way to counteract a ranged carry in the top lane aside from jungle intervention and that's not fair to the rest of your team. It's not even a question of being counter picked it's just been made the only viable option in the META which stifles diversity and makes for a stagnant game.

46 Comments

Ralanr4 votes

Hopefully they'll address this in the midseason with the vanguard or diver update.

Ravenous Howls3 votes

{quoted}

Hopefully they'll address this in the midseason with the vanguard or diver update.

I would prefer they address it now. I like my tanks and bruisers and it doesn't feel particularly satisfying to have my favorite champs smothered out of relevance b/c of a lack of consistency from RIOT. It's not about even being outplayed but a matter of when they are going to kill me b/c they can afford to get all that juicy % damage from Ferocity and cunning. while I have no way to defend myself besides huddle under turret. Even then that rarely helps.

Ralanr3 votes

Honestly if they tried to help tanks and bruisers a lot then they'd be losing attention to give to assassins. I'd rather my favorite class (tanks) get their full attention honestly.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly if they tried to help tanks and bruisers a lot then they'd be losing attention to give to assassins. I'd rather my favorite class (tanks) get their full attention honestly.

I will concede that. I just wish that they would allow us to actually have some game relevance.

Ralanr3 votes

Our relevance is early and mid. CoC at least gives engage tanks a stronger late game teamfight presence.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Our relevance is early and mid. CoC at least gives engage tanks a stronger late game teamfight presence.

Yes but only on some champs. I think it's sad that Malz, Viktor, Jax, Irelia, Aatrox and Darius can use this to effect but Nasus, Mordekaiser, Garen and Trundle can't. Champions that already have trouble surviving and that don't have a decent keystone to use.

Ralanr2 votes

I'm honestly not sad that champions like Nasus and Mundo can't use this mastery. It would make them so stupidly hard to kill especially with their total damage output.

Honestly I think Darius and Triforce Tank Irelia are going to be a big pain in the ass with CoC.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

I'm honestly not sad that champions like Nasus and Mundo can't use this mastery. It would make them so stupidly hard to kill especially with their total damage output.

Honestly I think Darius and Triforce Tank Irelia are going to be a big pain in the ass with CoC.

See that's the problem too. Darius and Irelia do just as much damage as the Nasus or Mundo, I'd argue that Mundo has beeter in built tank steroid though then Nasus. This means you will still have champions with ridiculous power and huge defensive steroid while building damage first and some tank later. That doesn't seem particularly useful or fair. Especially because Grasp is so weak and Bond of Stone is worthless top.

Ralanr2 votes

Maybe after tank Ekko dies we'll get a grasp buff. Honestly I don't like arguing for Mundo when it comes to buffing tank stuff. He seems to be the first champion that takes anything good on tanks and makes it stupid while hurting a lot.

I do not like how Mundo works.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe after tank Ekko dies we'll get a grasp buff. Honestly I don't like arguing for Mundo when it comes to buffing tank stuff. He seems to be the first champion that takes anything good on tanks and makes it stupid while hurting a lot.

I do not like how Mundo works.

I am not making the case for Mundo and he fits that drain tank theme with WW only his is self contained which makes him even more frustrating to deal with.

Ravenous Howls2 votes

{quoted}

Our relevance is early and mid. CoC at least gives engage tanks a stronger late game teamfight presence.

See I think it is far too easy for poke champs to come top and take away all your relevance early all the way through late. I don't think Tanks get early-mid game unless they are against another tank or fighter and then the game will most likely be diecided by who has the better bot lane.

Ralanr2 votes

Pretty fucking much. That's why tanks items are much cheaper IMO. Tanks are apparently supposed to function with at least one tank item.

Ignoring that offense items outscale tank items and being bullied makes the bully have more cash for items usually.

Who knows, maybe tanks will start buying Cull against poke lanes?

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Pretty fucking much. That's why tanks items are much cheaper IMO. Tanks are apparently supposed to function with at least one tank item.

Ignoring that offense items outscale tank items and being bullied makes the bully have more cash for items usually.

Who knows, maybe tanks will start buying Cull against poke lanes?

I understand offense is suppose to out scale but not in the first 12 minutes of the game. If I can't contest any gold for getting true damaged or %max health damaged constantly what's the point?

Ralanr3 votes

Normally tanks with AoE (at least in my experience) can catch up to farm or surprise their opponent by taking advantage of a mistake and killing them.

People really need to stop thinking that tanks don't hurt.

Ravenous Howls2 votes

{quoted}

Normally tanks with AoE (at least in my experience) can catch up to farm or surprise their opponent by taking advantage of a mistake and killing them.

People really need to stop thinking that tanks don't hurt.

It's not that tanks don't hurt it's just that they can't get in to do relevant damage before being sniped with impunity and no way to follow up b/c they are melee vs an ADC or Mage top that does stupid amounts of damage safely outside of turret range or minion aggro.

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

{quoted}

Honestly if they tried to help tanks and bruisers a lot then they'd be losing attention to give to assassins. I'd rather my favorite class (tanks) get their full attention honestly.

Agreed, a vanguard update with changes to tank items has implications for pretty much every melee outside of raw damage melees like riven and fiora. Id rather it receive full attention lest it fuck up itemizations for you Sion and me Darius

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

Oh, don't worry.

They just decided to introduce Fresh Blood and Greenfather's Thumb so that ranged champions are even stronger in laning phase.

Have fun with that...

Honestly, I miss the old Mastery system from Season 4. While the Utility tree could have been improved and the effects weren't as obvious as keystone masteries are, it provides a good mixture of offensive and defensive bonuses for everyone.

Mastery setups were more versatile too. You'd have the traditional pages (21/9/0, 21/0/9, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/0/21, 0/9/21), dedicated pages (i.e. 30/0/0, 0/30/0) and non-traditional pages (i.e. 21/6/3, 12/9/9).

Now, you take the keystone appropriate for your champion (of possibly two options) or you are purposefully inhibiting yourself.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Oh, don't worry.

They just decided to introduce Fresh Blood and Greenfather's Thumb so that ranged champions are even stronger in laning phase.

Have fun with that...

Honestly, I miss the old Mastery system from Season 4. While the Utility tree could have been improved and the effects weren't as obvious as keystone masteries are, it provides a good mixture of offensive and defensive bonuses for everyone.

Mastery setups were more versatile too. You'd have the traditional pages (21/9/0, 21/0/9, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/0/21, 0/9/21), dedicated pages (i.e. 30/0/0, 0/30/0) and non-traditional pages (i.e. 21/6/3, 12/9/9).

Now, you take the keystone appropriate for your champion (of possibly two options) or you are purposefully inhibiting yourself.

Yup Seasons 4 and 5 were so much better. I don't even care that games were longer and more drawn out. At least I felt like I had a chance. I miss 10% Crit mitigation and 4% AOE mitigation in the defense tree. These preseason changes are really just a massive middle finger to the tank classes from Riot.

Ralanr2 votes

People say the old ones were more versatile, but honestly I never felt it was. They were just passive numbers that you could mix but it was often better to get full benefit of one than half of both.

For all the problems of these new masteries, at least they are proactive instead of passive most of the time.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

People say the old ones were more versatile, but honestly I never felt it was. They were just passive numbers that you could mix but it was often better to get full benefit of one than half of both.

For all the problems of these new masteries, at least they are proactive instead of passive most of the time.

I think we look to them as more versatile because there were real tank stats in those trees. Not sure how the new trees are proactive over passive. They seem to accomplish largely the same thing except now damage is king and your diversity is forced.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

They've also been balance issues since their introduction.

Honestly, keystone masteries (i.e. Fervor of Battle, Thunderlord's Decree, Grasp of the Undying) are the main reason we've been dealing with so many assassins stacking defensive items throughout the season (i.e. Ekko, Akali, Fizz).

The increase in ambient damage means that they require more durability to survive and the keystone masteries mean that they will still have the damage to kill the enemy carries even without itemizing any significant amount of offensive stats.

While the old mastery system was rather passive, I don't really notice much difference with the current one. Maybe I'll try to sneak in the additional autoattack for Grasp of the Undying or Thunderlord's Decree, but they generally just provide extra damage/utility for something I would do anyways.

Ralanr2 votes

And yet people keep blaming that the tank items are OP.

The tank items. Not that maybe the people building tank are getting enough damage out of their masteries and runes to kill champions that barely build defensively.

I wanted to hit people who argued this. I felt like people were just trying to nerf tanks but keep the champions abusing the items ok.

I mean, look at how much AD you get from duskblade. Last I checked it was 75 AD. 75 fucking AD. That's a lot of AD. In all honesty I never felt assassins needed much AD (I mean AD assassins) to do damage. Riot actually proved this with mages since despite cutting the AP of most of their items, they still fucking hurt with them (despite complaints from mages).

Damage is ridiculous and everyone needs to build durability to have a presence. But those who seem to have both damage and durability are more useful than straight up durability.

Sometimes I see a utility mage building tanky items and think to myself "They have more influence in this fight than I do."

/rant.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Sometimes I see a utility mage building tanky items and think to myself "They have more influence in this fight than I do."

Lulu item 3009 item 2301 item 3110 item 3190 item 3151 item 3143

I'm sure somebody want to hit me for this abomination.

Ralanr1 votes

God I hate fighting Lulu.

Poke, disengage, anti dive, odd CC that's really effective.

She's one of those supports that has so much and makes her way too good at solo and support whenever she's strong. I'm not sure what her specific niche is in the support role honestly.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

God I hate fighting Lulu.

Poke, disengage, anti dive, odd CC that's really effective.

She's one of those supports that has so much and makes her way too good at solo and support whenever she's strong. I'm not sure what her specific niche is in the support role honestly.

She also can dominate a top lane melee easily while being nearly ungankable.

Ralanr1 votes

I fought Lulu top once. I didn't get to play League that match.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

I fought Lulu top once. I didn't get to play League that match.

I've fought it more times then I'd like to admit. You are definitely always on your heels through lane phase and she can poke you and deny you CS even under your tower. It's super annoying...

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfBEWvnH,comment-id=0002000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-03T14:10:51.014+0000)

She also can dominate a top lane melee easily while being nearly ungankable.

Ive faced lulus top lane before as Darius

She tastes great with flash and ghost after level three.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Not really sure. All I know is that I really enjoy playing her.

I just find her to be a really versatile support between her poke, peel and ability to turn almost anyone into an initiator.

She's technically one of the weaker supports at the moment, but that doesn't make her any less enjoyable.

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly it's better to enjoy and master a champion when they're weak IMO. That way you're able to utilize buffs much faster than anyone else.

And surprise people who think you chose a "weak" pick.

I fear she might be too versatile honestly.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Lulu item 3009 item 2301 item 3110 item 3190 item 3151 item 3143

I'm sure somebody want to hit me for this abomination.

You're a monster...

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

And yet people keep blaming that the tank items are OP.

The tank items. Not that maybe the people building tank are getting enough damage out of their masteries and runes to kill champions that barely build defensively.

I wanted to hit people who argued this. I felt like people were just trying to nerf tanks but keep the champions abusing the items ok.

I mean, look at how much AD you get from duskblade. Last I checked it was 75 AD. 75 fucking AD. That's a lot of AD. In all honesty I never felt assassins needed much AD (I mean AD assassins) to do damage. Riot actually proved this with mages since despite cutting the AP of most of their items, they still fucking hurt with them (despite complaints from mages).

Damage is ridiculous and everyone needs to build durability to have a presence. But those who seem to have both damage and durability are more useful than straight up durability.

Sometimes I see a utility mage building tanky items and think to myself "They have more influence in this fight than I do."

/rant.

This is exactly it. It doesn't matter how durable or how good I am at threading in my CC I get blown up while not being able to effectively make dent in a tanky Assassin Mage yet they have the power to do damage, survive and influence the outcome of the game more than I do as a full item tank who dies in 2 spell rotations from their carries...

Critmaster Garen3 votes

there is one % damage reduction mastery in the resolve tree. and it benefits the adc who gets more out of the aura than the tank whos picking it. basically giving adc a second keystone when support tanks are next to them.

all the % damage reduction is going to adc, like wtf.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfBEWvnH,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-11-04T12:40:23.608+0000)

there is one % damage reduction mastery in the resolve tree. and it bnefits the adc who gets the aura, and not the tank whos picking it. basically giving adc a second keystone when support tanks are next to them.

all the % damage reduction is going to adc, like wtf.

Exactly and this feels like more of a support only mastery and I feel it would be better to go in cunning somewhere. The lack of legit tank masteries and resistances in the Resolve Tree is downright offensive. It's a slap to the face for every juggernaut, warden, tank and bruiser out there. ADC's don't need any more free access to our items or masteries we (tanky champs) need something for us and only us. I made another thread on this but honestly ADC's should not have access to IBG or BC. They should be made melee only. Steraks too. Graves with sterak's is just oppressive and stupid.

Ralanr2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfBEWvnH,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-11-04T12:40:23.608+0000)

there is one % damage reduction mastery in the resolve tree. and it benefits the adc who gets the aura more than the tank whos picking it. basically giving adc a second keystone when support tanks are next to them.

all the % damage reduction is going to adc, like wtf

"Let's give %damage reduction to the class that is squishy and meant to die to burst"

I don't understand how this was ever a good idea when you consider how quickly they get their life back with a freaking BT.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

"Let's give %damage reduction to the class that is squishy and meant to die to burst"

I don't understand how this was ever a good idea when you consider how quickly they get their life back with a freaking BT.

I still think the game is more exciting when multiple classes have the capability to carry but with so much damage being given to ranged melee and ranged AP casters it's really not possible to carry consistently with another class especially if you are melee without movement abilities built in.

So now our games are solely decided by whether or not your bot lane performed well and it almost demands intervention from every other lane to ensure this happens. It makes the game terribly predictable and lopsided. If we gave tanks decent power to you know...tank, we will have much better unpredictable but fun games where the individual performance can be valued more accurately.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

They don't want to buff the tanks, because even now in the LCS you see 2-3 tanks per team.

Mimy1 votes

New Knight's Vow 2400 G Total +400 Health +100% Base Health Regeneration +20 Armor Active :: Designate an ally as your partner. (90 second cooldown) Passive :: If your partner is nearby, gain 40 additional armor and +15% movement speed while moving towards them. Passive :: If your partner is nearby, heal for 12% of the damage they deal to enemy champions and redirect 12% of the damage your partner takes to you. This effect is halved for ranged champions.


I know it's a support item but still it's a tanky item. SUPER STOKED for it.

It's good for tanks and non-tanks alike. I'm gonna build it on my Tankmo support. xD item 2302 item 3022 item 3158 (Knights Vow) item 3512 item 3060

It works it really does, and you're an evil little bastard doing it... as they all try to focus the teemo and the whole team jumps in after they blew everything important.. xD

If the tank tank was to get this and designate the ADC and that ADC is doing damage while your tanking the enemy team you will be HEALING

say your adc is something like a fed Vayne THATS ALOT OF HEAL. Even for tanks.

Add a soraka to that and honey, you ain't dieing..


Theres also the mastery that gives 8 armor and MR for being close to your turret.

Ralanr3 votes

I honestly dislike that mastery because it provides nothing late game unless you're still defending. Even feast does something late, not great but something!

Ravenous Howls1 votes

Ok but Knight's Vow doesn't do anything for me top lane solo and I don't want to necessarily take more damage than I already am. If they really want to help us out then they need to give us a better Doran's item, Give some power back to IBG and give us some more tenacity options.

Also Siege Master is a garbage mastery point that will hardly help early game and be completely wasted mid-late.

WoonStruck1 votes

The tanky support tree they call Resolve isn't cutting it anymore.

Hopefully the re-do it.

Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

The tanky support tree they call Resolve isn't cutting it anymore.

Hopefully the re-do it.

Agreed. Or rebuff some of the tank items so they are only viable on higher health/resistance builds. Kind of like what they did for Warmog's.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Yea i wish we had items which

  • Reduce aoe damage taken since that seems to go around plenty these days
  • Block some damage after resistance scaling with hp like a buffed up dorans shield if you will to deal with excessive amounts of attackspeed carries and adc's since armor doesn't help anymore with all the pen flying around
  • An item which reduces damage based on far away someone is from you
  • An item which reduces further incoming magic damage for each magic damage spell applied to you, to help defend vs dps mages becuase tanks don't really have options for that.
  • Better in combat sustain options from items possibly through hp regen? or missing health regen.
Ravenous Howls1 votes

{quoted}

Yea i wish we had items which

  • Reduce aoe damage taken since that seems to go around plenty these days
  • Block some damage after resistance scaling with hp like a buffed up dorans shield if you will to deal with excessive amounts of attackspeed carries and adc's since armor doesn't help anymore with all the pen flying around
  • An item which reduces damage based on far away someone is from you
  • An item which reduces further incoming magic damage for each magic damage spell applied to you, to help defend vs dps mages becuase tanks don't really have options for that.
  • Better in combat sustain options from items possibly through hp regen? or missing health regen.

Yup we used to have a lot of this but Riot seems intent on making the battle field for carries only. There used to be so many options for resistances and hp regen and now we have barely any that are worth investing in although Titanic Hydra was a good item in the right direction.

FreshAsFebreze1 votes

How about thornmail that cancels the attackers life steal for a few attacks or seconds and randuins omen that blocks like 50% crit instead of 10% because 10% isnt shit when crits hit for 1500-2000. I want this game to go back to the good days of team fights being more strategic and lasting longer than adcs and ap bursters just blowing everything up in 3-4 seconds.

Ravenous Howls2 votes

{quoted}

How about thornmail that cancels the attackers life steal for a few attacks or seconds and randuins omen that blocks like 50% crit instead of 10% because 10% isnt shit when crits hit for 1500-2000. I want this game to go back to the good days of team fights being more strategic and lasting longer than adcs and ap bursters just blowing everything up in 3-4 seconds.

I like the thornmail idea but the 50% crit reduction is huge. 20% sounds more reasonable.

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