Nasus the dog that didn't change...

Ravenous Howls·Oct 24, 2016·45 votes·4,018 views

So after 5 days of playing Nasus with the change I can honestly say... Nothing has really changed. He is essentially the same as he always was. Sure I've died a few less times but with all the % health damage on champion kits/ masteries that burst of resistances for 15 seconds was never really going to amount to much unfortunately.

His counter play has always been kiting and I can live with that. He's always had a rough early game against most match ups and I can live with that. But what I can't accept is that if I do well and stack and itemize appropriately that I can not make an impact in the game if my Bot Lane or Mid Lane fed. Where is my late game Raid Boss? Where is my ability to change the tide of a fight with my great damage and imposing presence If I earned it? There is nothing quite so defeating or depressing then being stacked to 400 by 20 minutes with IBG, SV, Merc Treads, Giant belt and Chain Armor only to be bursted in seconds in your ult by the enemy team even when your team is beating on them...

So to those of you who cried foul, OP or some other nonsense you'll be happy to know the same tricks still work.

To those of you who cried this was a nerf well you can safely meander in limbo because, like before, Nasus is neither weaker or stronger than before.

And to those of my brothers who are die hard Nasus mains desperate for a change, to help our struggles in the new mobility/damage META game, sadly we come to recognize that we were fooled again. We reached out for the red pill but it was just a blue pill in disguise...

Edit- I am not making a case to remove Nasus' intended weaknesses. I am trying to point out that while I do feel this was a step in the right direction for Nasus I think ultimately, no pun intended, that the change will be more of a lateral then a straight up Buff after the dust settles around the hype.

I am also not saying I am right about everything either and will gladly recant if I am proven wrong if his win rate continues to stay strong at 51%.

127 Comments

ZerenzaOct 24, 201625 votes

I mean...is just last hitting really hard enough to be considered "Earning it" there are plenty of times i'v been in a game where nasus had 400-600 stacks and simply was unbeatable. Like he isn't OP or anything like that by any means but there's a point where you have to draw the line, a nasus player just like anyone else in the game shouldn't be able to 1v5 or solo carry a game by doing...well nothing. It takes work and skill and pressing Q on minions for 20-30 minutes straight just doesn't constitute that in my personal opinion and has the potential for game health issues so i kind of like where it's at right now. In other words you shouldn't be guaranteed a win just by Qing minions all game, it takes much more than that.

That being said though i do feel he needs changes, his lore makes him seem completely different than his in game personality and his kit doesn't really match his lore as much as i'd like either. I mean he's basically a god but all he does is hit tiny people all day, that's not in his lore and certainly isn't a part of his thematic. Being the very first juggernaut in the game he's a bit out dated and could use some updates.

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I mean...is just last hitting really hard enough to be considered "Earning it" there are plenty of times i'v been in a game where nasus had 400-600 stacks and simply was unbeatable. Like he isn't OP or anything like that by any means but there's a point where you have to draw the line, a nasus player just like anyone else in the game shouldn't be able to 1v5 or solo carry a game by doing...well nothing. It takes work and skill and pressing Q on minions for 20-30 minutes straight just doesn't constitute that in my personal opinion and has the potential for game health issues so i kind of like where it's at right now. In other words you shouldn't be guaranteed a win just by Qing minions all game, it takes much more than that.

That being said though i do feel he needs changes, his lore makes him seem completely different than his in game personality and his kit doesn't really match his lore as much as i'd like either. I mean he's basically a god but all he does is hit tiny people all day, that's not in his lore and certainly isn't a part of his thematic. Being the very first juggernaut in the game he's a bit out dated and could use some updates.

He is suppose to be a late game hyper carry like Vayne or Tristana are. Granted some of their skill is based on positioning with abilities in a fight but is it really that hard as one of them to AA something to death just b/c they power farmed and got cradled by their jungler? So yes I disagree with you on that. If I farm well for 15 minutes and itemize properly I should be as hard as steel and nearly impossible to take down just like a fed Vayne, Tristana or Yi practically are.

His fantasy is based around him being a tactician. His kit is actually quite tactical in fights and in duels. I personally find no fault with his play style just the fact that nearly every other champion has better base stats, CC, relevant all game damage than he does and that he does not get properly rewarded for doing his job well in his lane when it comes to late game.

SwaggyMcGhee420Oct 24, 20165 votes

He'll never be a late game carry without a way to avoid being kited to death after 30 minutes. All he can do in teamfights is use w on someone and soak up damage until he wins or loses.

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20163 votes

{quoted}

He'll never be a late game carry without a way to avoid being kited to death after 30 minutes. All he can do in teamfights is use w on someone and soak up damage until he wins or loses.

You are probably right unless he get's some kind of mobility in his abilities and I don't see that happening.

SwaggyMcGhee420Oct 24, 20162 votes

Yeah, currently he's best mid game with about 500 stacks and ghost, before he dies in five seconds to LDR ADCs and Void Staff mid laners.

Mecha IncognitoOct 25, 20163 votes

I wouldn't be against them changing wither into a skillshot, reducing its duration/strength, and then making it so he stole some of the movement speed/attack speed.

I figure it would still allow him to be kited, but would also give him a chance to punish people out of place, and help him get in a little easier. It also wouldn't feel as helpless as it can when he withers you currently. Getting slowed like that is pretty shitty unless you're playing the likes of Riven.

GayFluffyUnicornOct 26, 20161 votes

Remove the arpen from his E give his E his W so the field does dmg, slows AS and MS and gives nasus some MS when he walks through and give him an entirely new W? Would that sound alright to you?

Mecha IncognitoOct 26, 20161 votes

That would be entering OP territory. Just because he wouldn't even need to play well to affect a teamfight, he'd just drop E in and that alone would cause havoc. Let alone gaining a whole new ability.

I think having him run down a single target is OK. Maybe not extremely thematic but it works for his kit.

ZerenzaOct 24, 201614 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wd0tGcgGE4

His kit has absolutely nothing to do with being tactical at all, targeted 90% slow, targeted 1000+ damage Q, AOE W, Life steal on a passive and gigantic stat buff on his R. There is nothing tactical about him, you just press a button, you don't have to predict where and what your opponent will do either. You literally chase someone down and smack them with your cane, that's not tactical at all and is a very clear indication that he doesn't fulfill his thematic.

Juggernauts can't be hyper carries, they have to have a weakness so they often pay for it with low CC or moderate damage. Take Illaoi for example, she has 0 CC but really high damage and moderate base tank stats most bruiser/tanks have much higher base tank stats than her. So what your saying is you want Nasus to be able to do the same amount of damage as a Carry but also have 4000 health with 160+ resistances, that is the definition of unhealthy. Imagine if you gave vayne 4000 extra health and let her get to late game, where's the counter play? Currently to stop hyper carries you need to focus them down, they're usually really squishy and don't have any CC immunity's, it's how they balance their extremely high scaling damage. If nasus didn't have the weaknesses he has in his stats he'd be pretty busted and unstopable, he simply needs an update to bring him up to the standards of other juggernauts like Darius,Illaoi,Gnar, Garen and Cho-Gath.

In nasus's case they sacrificed his early game and gave him the strongest late game in the fking game as a cost. He can't have everything, he's got to be weak at something and unfortunately for him it's early game, it's CC it's being kited.

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TROct 24, 20168 votes

That video proves essentially nothing. It's clear he's playing against low skill players, and Nasus absolutely destroys people who don't know how to punish him.

He's extremely low range and very susceptible to kiting, especially by anyone with a cleanse or a dash. He's in a bit of a bad spot, and while I agree that just removing his weaknesses would break him entirely, they do really need to do something. The issue I see is that while he's got a weak early game to compensate for theoretically being unstoppable late game, in practice even if he gets ahead when he should undeniably be rewarded, it can still be inordinately difficult for him to have any impact in fights at all because of how easily he's kited.

Troll for TrumpOct 25, 20164 votes

Oh ok, anything that's not Yasuo Vayne or Riven isn't "tactical"

ZerenzaOct 25, 20162 votes

It's about counterplay potential and outplay options, not complexity. Champions who focus almost entirely on auto attacking have a tendency to not really be that tactical, all they have to do is right click someone and well that's the vast majority of their gameplay. They don't have ways to outplay the opponent and show off skill and mastery with the champion because their kits just simply don't have it. How do you show off mastery with say tryndamere? You don't, his entire playstyle is about right clicking someone, if you somehow fuck that up you get to be invincible for a bit, other than that he's got a dash so he might be able to do a little bit but most of the time he can't show off any mastery at all because there's nothing to show off.

Nasus is the same way, his entire play style center's around using his Q to stack and then right clicking opponents, he has a targeted 90% slow and an ultimate that gives him extra resistances so he can survive. Where's the outplay in that? What are you gonna do, hide in a bush and wither someone then run up to them and right click them to death? Yeah probably because that's really the only thing you can do with him. He isn't tactical because he doesn't require any fore thought from the player and cannot show mastery of the champion with his kit because his kit has no tools to outplay an opponent or to show general understanding of the champion. The only thing you need to know how to do is farm and right click.

Troll for TrumpOct 25, 20161 votes

Tryndamere : Build path flexibility Splitting and impact on splitting. While others can do that, his splitting is more fundamental Csing, surviving early Lvl 2 cheese Knowing when to teamfight and when not to. It's not the same as "when to fight and when not to", but rather when to avoid "grouping."

You're using the kit as the basis for the simplicity of the champ. The kit doesn't determine the champ's complexity, as I've mentioned multiple times. Please do not make me repeat it again, it'd be pointless.

ZerenzaOct 26, 20161 votes

None of that matter's if gameplay wise he's not really doing anything except mindlessly splitpushing and right clicking anyone that comes near him. None of that has any indication for tactical play because it doesn't change the crucial fact that all your doing is right clicking someone. That's your core gameplay and the extent of what's necessary to play said champion. It is also the extent what said champion can accomplish, no outplay potential, no mastery curve and no tactical play.

Swiftstrike4Oct 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

None of that matter's if gameplay wise he's not really doing anything except mindlessly splitpushing and right clicking anyone that comes near him. None of that has any indication for tactical play because it doesn't change the crucial fact that all your doing is right clicking someone. That's your core gameplay and the extent of what's necessary to play said champion. It is also the extent what said champion can accomplish, no outplay potential, no mastery curve and no tactical play.

Well that's every champion in league.

Nasus has a simple kit but I believe he is a great champion to learn due to the low skill cap.

By having a low skill cap, you can polish your mechanics and work on other aspects of the game.

Nasus teaches:

Understanding when to pick a fight
Warding
Split-pushing
Objective oriented game play
Wave management
Farming under tower
Patience

These are a lot of skills that league players do not even learn because they play more mechanically demanding champions or just more champions in general. You could say that if they played fewer champions they could learn these same skills as well, but Nasus has a kit that is the worst in the game pre 6. So while laning CS is the focus instead of missing CS to attack you laner. You HAVE to farm under tower or you will be incredibly behind and most SIlver or lower players don't know how to do that because they do not know how to do it every game.

You start the game at a huge disadvantage and you have to play around that disadvantage until the tipping point. A lot of other champions do not have to do this so players don't bother learning how do to any of the other things effectively. I also think other champions teach that "we lane then we group and teamfight" Nasus teaches objective taking as the focus of your play since you lack in team fighting.

I have a really good sense of when I can and cannot take an objective and I know I would not have developed that sense if I did not play Nasus.

ZerenzaOct 26, 20161 votes

See i can understand that, that's different, teemo is the same way. He's super simple and he is probably one of the best top laner's to start on to learn the role and different game mechanics he's got a little bit of tactical gameplay but most his gameplay is simple (i main teemo). But saying that Nasus is a tactical, high skill cap or mechanically demanding champ just flat out isn't true when the majority of your gameplay limits you to only being able to do whats within the confines of a champions kit and doesn't allow you to show true mastery of the game or the champion. It's commendable that most nasus mains can farm really well or target the right person with wither in a team fight and that's really good but what else do you do to show mastery of the game with nasus? Not really much, he's super simple, you don't have to think much about what your doing and he doesn't really allow you to grow further as a player because he'll teach you the basics but past that he as a champion lacks whats necessary to let you grow even further mechanically.

Swiftstrike4Oct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

See i can understand that, that's different, teemo is the same way. He's super simple and he is probably one of the best top laner's to start on to learn the role and different game mechanics he's got a little bit of tactical gameplay but most his gameplay is simple (i main teemo). But saying that Nasus is a tactical, high skill cap or mechanically demanding champ just flat out isn't true when the majority of your gameplay limits you to only being able to do whats within the confines of a champions kit and doesn't allow you to show true mastery of the game or the champion. It's commendable that most nasus mains can farm really well or target the right person with wither in a team fight and that's really good but what else do you do to show mastery of the game with nasus? Not really much, he's super simple, you don't have to think much about what your doing and he doesn't really allow you to grow further as a player because he'll teach you the basics but past that he as a champion lacks whats necessary to let you grow even further mechanically.

Well it depends what you equate to "mastery" of the game. If you value mechanics than no, it does not lead to greater mastery of the game. But mastery of the game for most champions involves what decisions you make. So I disagree with that idea that mechanics is the most important aspect of league, if it was the top champions would all be ones that take the most mechanical prowess (which at the moment relatively simple champions are the top ones). The mechanical ceiling for most champions is low or medium. Nasus and other low skill cap champions teach decision making and that's more important in league than mechanics the higher you climb.

But I do think mastery of the game is also ability to recognize the limits of your champion and make good decisions. I think league is largely a decision driven game, and mechanics are a small component to developing as a player.

This is actually one of the reasons that really good players recommend low skill cap champions in order to climb and improve as a player. They also recommend limiting one's champion pool.

I disagree that Nasus isn't tactical, because desionmaking falls under "tactics". What separates a good nasus from an average one? It is largely all the things I mentioned earlier and has nothing to do with mechanics.

I sometimes spectate lower level players that are learning Nasus (mostly silvers). I usually do it if the player requests it. Almost all of them are mechanically, pretty similar to me. In fact my common response is "mechanically you are pretty sound with Nasus" or "don't spirit fire as much", what I mostly discuss is why they make specific decisions and at what points.

I would even argue that mechanics don't separate a mid silver player from a low gold player. Those players are pretty comparable mechanically if they pick their best champion. It largely when they choose to do specific things in game and how well they CS. A lot of Gold players still out CS silver players on average because silver players focus on trading WAY more.

One of my buddies who is a Nasus main, who I watch sometimes, he is low silver, Silver IV I think. He watched one of my live ranked games, my team won so it was good that he spectated. At the end of the game he told me "I was wondering about some of your decisions. I would have made different ones throughout the game." And I replied "Oh what would you have done." And he replied "every decision I would have made at specific points in your game would have been the wrong one, you made way better choices than I would have in your shoes."

He was specifically reference times when I chose to split-push, TP, not tower dive, tower dive, and when I backed off a big wave. The point is that even though mechanically he is not far off he can't climb out of silver because his decision making is that of a silver player, which for the most part is pretty poor.

ZerenzaOct 26, 20161 votes

I am talking strictly about the champion as a whole, decision making is, as you said learned by and on the player not the champion, meaning that no matter what champion you play you can learn to make good decisions. Your not going to have better or worse decision making by playing a certain champion. You can learn decision making on any champion, just because you chose nasus or teemo doesn't mean your better at it than anyone else and certainly doesn't show mastery of said champions because decision making can be applied to ANY champion.

Nasus, as a champion strictly, does not require much work from the player's side, thus making it easier to learn the games basics but there is more to league than simply basics and decisions. If you master a champion like say Orianna, Riven or Lee Sin.. You can accomplish more as a master of those champions and champions with moderate to high mastery curves, the reason why is simply because those champions have more tools in their kit that allow them to outplay and outsmart the opponent(Tactical).

INB4 you say that there are a challenger player's who play easy to play champs and are One Tricks, they definitely aren't the majority.

Swiftstrike4Oct 27, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I am talking strictly about the champion as a whole, decision making is, as you said learned by and on the player not the champion, meaning that no matter what champion you play you can learn to make good decisions. Your not going to have better or worse decision making by playing a certain champion. You can learn decision making on any champion, just because you chose nasus or teemo doesn't mean your better at it than anyone else and certainly doesn't show mastery of said champions because decision making can be applied to ANY champion.

Nasus, as a champion strictly, does not require much work from the player's side, thus making it easier to learn the games basics but there is more to league than simply basics and decisions. If you master a champion like say Orianna, Riven or Lee Sin.. You can accomplish more as a master of those champions and champions with moderate to high mastery curves, the reason why is simply because those champions have more tools in their kit that allow them to outplay and outsmart the opponent(Tactical).

INB4 you say that there are a challenger player's who play easy to play champs and are One Tricks, they definitely aren't the majority.

I disagree. I think the champions you pick really to alter you play experience and development as a player and how you play. I would expect most nasus mains to know how to split push if they managed to get to gold, while I would not expect a darius main to have the same level of knowledge on how and when to do that. I am not speaking out of a vacuum, most high elo players (Diamond +) are going to have good decisionmaking or have developed it regardless of their champion pool, but remaining 95% or so of the player base their development is still guided by the roles and champs they play.

When you play champions that have poor early games you have to be more conscientious of your decisions and recognize the limitations of the specific champion you are playing. Or you move on and pick another champion. And people that main specific champions, champions that are severely punish for making poor decisions, must be much more observant of the terrain and field in front of them. I ward a lot, more than the average top laner in my elo, that was mostly from playing a champion who is susceptible to ganks. I am sure if I played a champion with better escapes and the ability to kite such as gnar, I would not ward as much.

Same thing if I played an early game champion, that player probably needs to understand powerspikes of all their lane opponents to effectively matchup against them relative to their champions. They also probably know when they can 1v1 a player better than someone who mains a support champ.

I frequently played with players in silver that had no understanding of what split-pushing was and how it can be effective. Because of that, I had to develop high level of map awareness and know when I could and could not take an objective. I didn't develop an objective sense by playing the game a lot or maining darius. I developed it because I played a champion who does not like to teamfight and focuses on objectives.

Champions are good at specific things. If you play a team fight oriented champion you will likely develop an ability to team-fight effectively. If you play Leona you largely have to make the decision of when to get a pick and pick a fight. You have no exit meaning you have to have some understanding due to your champions kit on "what is a good fight" and "what is a bad fight" this can later be applicable to other supports that have kits that are "safer" or objectively better, a player may have developed this by playing a low skill cap champion like her.

I think we are talking past each other at this point. But I am not sure if I specifically understand your point. From my perspective it sounds like you are saying that low skill cap champions do not heighten other aspects of game play as well as high skill cap champions can. In which I can say I pretty much disagree with that

chipndip1Oct 26, 20161 votes

Gnar and Cho aren't jugs...Gnar is a Marksman/Vanguard depending on form and Cho's a unique play style.

1 800 Top LaneOct 27, 20161 votes

Well said.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 24, 20169 votes

the range on his Q certainly helps I can say that. they need to make melee champions benefit more from tenacity.

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

the range on his Q certainly helps I can say that.

Oh I will certainly agree with that and I think him having an AA range reduction many of his other top lane melee counterparts don't suffer having makes this fair while he's in his ult. But it still doesn't make up for how easily he is still blown up despite being well farmed and itemized. I had this dream of being Nasus, an unstoppable juggernaut of unrelenting fury that demanded the whole team work together to bring down. Instead I got a chihuahua on top of jenga set that falls to his doom the second someone breaks wind in his general direction... Just feels really bad...

MunchCrunchLunchOct 24, 20162 votes

yeah you cant be tanky enough anymore. even on when i play darius nowdays. i grab two ad items. so i at least blow someone up late game. when i play amumu. i go tank ap. same thing with malphite. the problem with these juggernauts. is that they just focus you down regardless of the circumstances. most of the time since they are ranged. mages or adcs in particular. they can't be punished. if a melee gets close to you and focus you. your team can focus them or you yourself. if they are ranged they can't. which is why there is an ad carry in every game. god knows when riot fixes this issue. so that the adc role is a role. not a champion type (ranged marskmen). they somewhat invalidate melee carries in a controlled setting that isn't low elo ofcourse.

my best advice to you when you play nasus. build this shit.

item 3078 item 3111 item 3053 item 3072 item 3065 item 3143

makes sure you blow someone up.

makes me wanna play nasus and try those changes i havent played him in a while but i wasn't optimisic about the changes because jax has a similar ultimate that gives him resistances and it doesn't really do much of anything really since even supertanks die in few seconds.

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

yeah you cant be tanky enough anymore. even on when i play darius nowdays. i grab two ad items. so i at least blow someone up late game. when i play amumu. i go tank ap. same thing with malphite. the problem with these juggernauts. is that they just focus you down regardless of the circumstances. most of the time since they are ranged. mages or adcs in particular. they can't be punished. if a melee gets close to you and focus you. your team can focus them or you yourself. if they are ranged they can't. which is why there is an ad carry in every game. god knows when riot fixes this issue. so that the adc role is a role. not a champion type (ranged marskmen). they somewhat invalidate melee carries in a controlled setting that isn't low elo ofcourse.

my best advice to you when you play nasus. build this shit.

Ugh that build makes my eyes bleed... LOL!

TF is too expensive and really doesn't do that much extra damage outside of IBG. Its 200% is on your base AD only so really it's like an extra 100 damage over IBG but you get no tank from Trinity and have to build FH with it which is not that great of an item any more.

Blood Thirster might be okay if you had any real chance making it to a target to reliably make use of the sustain. Honestly it would probably be better to go for Warlords then Blood Thirster and get Steraks for the shield... I have a pretty good win rate and KDA with Nasus 3.71:1 and 54% win rate over 200 games in ranked. But lately my results have been anything from spectacular outside of a few games and I used to feel impactful and meaningful to my team as Nasus but that feeling is starting to fade...

MunchCrunchLunchOct 24, 20163 votes

its not the damage its the movement speed you get from TF. probably not enough armor tho.

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

its not the damage its the movement speed you get from TF. probably not enough armor tho.

I understand a lot of people like the MS. Trust me I used to be a hard core TF only or nothing Nasus kind of guy. But with the removal of the critical and AP, which did give him a ton of burst, the item has just never felt that good on him anymore. IBG gives him nearly the same power but with a lot of tankiness, CDR, Mana and the slow is pretty good to have to stick to targets anyways.

HateDaddyOct 24, 20166 votes

Feels much better to me.

His mid game is even more terrifying now and his late game is slightly better. His late game is never going to be overly amazing at this point. He would require too many buffs to be that late game carry he once was.

Sire HippingtonOct 24, 20163 votes

Well, thats not a specific nasus issue, though it hurts more because of the failing lategame fantasy that a stacking mechanic prommises. What needs to change is not nasus, but the disgusting amounts of damage overall and especially on ranged champions paired with lots of anti tank mechnisms like absurd %pen, %hp damage and truedamage. Other non-assasin/heavy-cc melees struggle just as much(or more for most) mid to late as nasus, though atleast many of them have a good early that can snowball into a strong mid.

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eIAIPvTZ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-10-24T16:27:20.113+0000)

Well, thats not a specific nasus issue, though it hurts more because of the failing lategame fantasy that a stacking mechanic prommises. What needs to change is not nasus, but the disgusting amounts of damage overall and especially on ranged champions paired with lots of anti tank mechnisms like absurd %pen, %hp damage and truedamage. Other non-assasin/heavy-cc melees struggle just as much(or more for most) mid to late as nasus, though atleast many of them have a good early that can snowball into a strong mid.

I agree with most of this but remember a lot of them have much better built in defense steroids then Nasus too and many have some %max health damage shred not tied to an ult. Amu's Despair, Shen's Twilight Assult, Gnar's Hyper, Maokai's Twisted Advance just to name a few. all of the these tanks have better and easier ways to apply good damage, apply hard CC and have damage reduction or shields as part of their defense.

Sire HippingtonOct 25, 20162 votes

a lot of them have much better built in defense

I really wouldn't say that, 600hp+lots of def stats from ult is massive as far as defense steroids go, and the 20% lifesteal wich works on his main damage tool is more sustain than most can offer, both in lane and in lategame fights.

better and easier ways to apply good damage

While there are some that have an easier time to apply their stuff, there are also quite some that have a harder time, his E and W are very potent and easy to apply. If you take champs like Shyvana, Volibear or garen, those have a even harder time than nasus etting anything done in a teamfight.

some %max health damage shred not tied to an ult

Therefor they don't have an ~700+ damage nuke on very low cd, and their maxhealth damage isn't nearly as potent as nasus ult....

I'm not saying nasus is in a great state, but he's not worse of than most other melees

TotalJerkOct 24, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eIAIPvTZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-24T13:48:28.491+0000)

all the % health damage

Armor/MR still works against that, you know. What really fucks over Nasus' new ult is true damage, abilities that ignore/shred resistances, and fucking item 3071 which almost every AD bruiser builds nowadays.

SasogwaOct 25, 20163 votes

Everyone's gotta hate me for this, but to make Nasus a stronger pick lategame, you need to buff back the attack speed slow. Maybe not to the old values (currently 17.5% to 47.5%, used to be 35% to 95% ; I'd suggest 25% to 75%), but it's hardly noticeable right now. This will give him true utility in teamfights, while solidifying a shallow anti-autoattackers identity that used to be very clear back in seasons 1,2/ early season 3. And it does have much more options to deal with than before. item 3140 builds into item 3139 which is core for an ADC, this option didn't exist at the time. item 3222 is an option for the support, didn't exist at the time. summoner 1 is always an option. And don't bullshit me with "but he can slow me just as it comes off cooldown again". We all know lategame teamfights don't last long, and a free DPSing ADC can melt Nasus easily. His slow has also less range than it used to, so he must really go forward to slow the ADC. Some ADC's auto attack range is even higher than Wither's range.

Overall Nasus could be in a very good spot (good counterplay options : kiting and denying in lane) except he just gets destroyed by lategame ADC's and can't do anything, getting kited being logical. This is extremely ironic, as in his design, with his attack speed slow, he was supposed to counter this class. Basically that's what supposed to make his lategame power : he weakens the main damage source of the enemy team and since in lategame he's tanky and deals more damage than the opposing frontline, he's a strong pick. Well turns out it's not working as intended.

CrettOct 24, 20162 votes

yeah

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

yeah

Exactly how I feel... Just kind of meh about his change now. I was really excited at first but the reality was a cold wet towel to the crotch...

CrettOct 24, 20163 votes

I really wish damage could take a chill pill. Let tanks rest

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I really wish damage could take a chill pill. Let tanks rest

Or at least make the carries have to work for it instead of getting so much of it for free in the mastery pages...

Ben SharpioOct 24, 20162 votes

This is the story of every tank/juggernaut. Especially as a jungler, you can't afford to camp other lanes because ADC's have the power to steamroll games

Ravenous HowlsOct 24, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Sion Bot l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eIAIPvTZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-10-24T16:09:04.499+0000)

This is the story of every tank/juggernaut. Especially as a jungler, you can't afford to camp other lanes because ADC's have the power to steamroll games

Agreed and it makes the game largely predictable based on which carry got ganks and got fed. It almost makes individual performances trifling by comparison and it's pretty sad that if you are melee that got fed and ahead that your impact still remains tragically low if the rest of your team did poorly. That's why it's almost better to play a strong support type top than can set your carries up like Shen, Scion or Poppy.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 25, 20161 votes

I'm reading some of your other comments, and I gotta say, while the "raid boss" fantasy is pretty cool, it shouldn't be given to Nasus every game just because he got farm. If you want to be a true raid boss, you have to do more than farm. As long as that is all Nasus does, he shouldn't be allowed to be unstoppable late game.

I say this as an avid Swain main. Yeah, it's fun when you get to become Raid Boss Swain, and the entire enemy team becomes a health kit for you, but that can't happen every game if he's balanced. It can only happen when I went 5/0 in the first 10 minutes and farmed like a boss.

The struggle with Nasus will always be balancing his early game with his late game. I think the changes they made are a step in the right direction, so I think we agree on that. But if he's weak after these changes, they will buff him (maybe not soon, but they will). Based on the stats I've seen, he isn't currently all that weak. He's right where he should be.

Ravenous HowlsOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm reading some of your other comments, and I gotta say, while the "raid boss" fantasy is pretty cool, it shouldn't be given to Nasus every game just because he got farm. If you want to be a true raid boss, you have to do more than farm. As long as that is all Nasus does, he shouldn't be allowed to be unstoppable late game.

I say this as an avid Swain main. Yeah, it's fun when you get to become Raid Boss Swain, and the entire enemy team becomes a health kit for you, but that can't happen every game if he's balanced. It can only happen when I went 5/0 in the first 10 minutes and farmed like a boss.

The struggle with Nasus will always be balancing his early game with his late game. I think the changes they made are a step in the right direction, so I think we agree on that. But if he's weak after these changes, they will buff him (maybe not soon, but they will). Based on the stats I've seen, he isn't currently all that weak. He's right where he should be.

I really didn't make that whole statement clear but by doing well I meant maybe killed my opponent and took a few towers on top of farming well and itemizing efficiently. I agree that he should not be unstoppable every game but for the many great games I play I find that if my bot lane isn't relative then I can't make an impact and I should be able to. Not 1v5 but set my team up in a good fight and maybe win even if I die. But as it is currently I just get blown up in seconds with little or no chance to retaliate and my team follows suit. That's where I am frustrated.

I mean with swain if you are like 6/0/0 and your bot is 2/4/0 don't you want your presence in a fight to be noticeable instead of hey I came down here fed only to get CC'd and then insta dead in 2 seconds by the ADC with just 4 kills and 2 items?

ModKnightsKemplarOct 25, 20161 votes

I mean, if that's really happening to you... I find it hard to believe on cc and one adc can kill a nasus that easily, but it DOES depend on the adc. If it's ashe, then you shouldn't fight her alone for sure. You're nasus, and she can slow you.

I'm not really trying to argue your key points, I just feel that the team aspect of this game is getting left out of your analysis. Nasus doing good shouldn't always get to solo carry. Solo carry should be extremely rare, and also reserved for the times you picked an EXCELLENT champ into their comp. That's the crux of my point. I can only solo carry with Swain SOMETIMES when I do that well, and that's good. It's a team game.

Ravenous HowlsOct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I mean, if that's really happening to you... I find it hard to believe on cc and one adc can kill a nasus that easily, but it DOES depend on the adc. If it's ashe, then you shouldn't fight her alone for sure. You're nasus, and she can slow you.

I'm not really trying to argue your key points, I just feel that the team aspect of this game is getting left out of your analysis. Nasus doing good shouldn't always get to solo carry. Solo carry should be extremely rare, and also reserved for the times you picked an EXCELLENT champ into their comp. That's the crux of my point. I can only solo carry with Swain SOMETIMES when I do that well, and that's good. It's a team game.

Sorry that was not my intent. I've had many games where I am fed and my bot lane was either far behind or even and then I go in to make something happen and get blown up. There have been games where that doesn't happen either. It just feels disproportionately one sided. Last night I came back from being 1/4/0 to 6/4/12. So I can swing things back sometimes but my bot lane was definitely good as well but the enemy team did have a fed Rengar for a while.

I guess I just think for being labeled a late game hyper carry that it too rarely seems to materialize when I hit that late game.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 26, 20162 votes

Yeah, I can see why that would be frustrating. Given his win rate, though, can he really be considered a hyper-carry anymore? His win rate peaks at 30-35 minutes on champion.gg, and he falls off after that, I think for many of the reasons you are quoting (too easy to kite, too countered by late game adc builds, etc.). I have had several Nasus mains correct me in game when I say they are a late game champ, and I think this is why.

The points you are making aren't wrong, but they don't offend me either, because actually don't agree that he's a late game champ anymore. I'm actually not sure how he could possibly be balanced that way, given the way adcs are designed to scale. He peaks in the mid game when he has some stacks, but the adc isn't huge yet. If Nasus can't help you win by 40 minutes by either a great flanking tp or some excellent split pushing, you're in trouble these days.

Now, we could argue about whether or not Riot could/should leave him like that (I think it's fine and we just need to readjust or expectations of 'ole Susan). Either way, though, he seems pretty balanced this way. His win rate is normal, and no one seems to think he's unhealthy. The problem, as you stated, is whether or not he is meeting player expectations. Changing his kit is not the only way to fix that. Changing our expectations would work, too.

Ravenous HowlsOct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I can see why that would be frustrating. Given his win rate, though, can he really be considered a hyper-carry anymore? His win rate peaks at 30-35 minutes on champion.gg, and he falls off after that, I think for many of the reasons you are quoting (too easy to kite, too countered by late game adc builds, etc.). I have had several Nasus mains correct me in game when I say they are a late game champ, and I think this is why.

The points you are making aren't wrong, but they don't offend me either, because actually don't agree that he's a late game champ anymore. I'm actually not sure how he could possibly be balanced that way, given the way adcs are designed to scale. He peaks in the mid game when he has some stacks, but the adc isn't huge yet. If Nasus can't help you win by 40 minutes by either a great flanking tp or some excellent split pushing, you're in trouble these days.

Now, we could argue about whether or not Riot could/should leave him like that (I think it's fine and we just need to readjust or expectations of 'ole Susan). Either way, though, he seems pretty balanced this way. His win rate is normal, and no one seems to think he's unhealthy. The problem, as you stated, is whether or not he is meeting player expectations. Changing his kit is not the only way to fix that. Changing our expectations would work, too.

AHHH! Your talking sense! I don't want to hear sense!!! LOL! J/k. No and I get that but it seems that Riot still considers him a late game Raid Boss champ, very difficult to take down while dealing terrific damage but I feel that doesn't happen very often and hence some of my frustration and confusion.

I do agree though that if the perception of him was admitted by Riot to be as he his now I would feel better about it. I agree and am not delusional that he's a mid- early late game champ. However all this being said and the changes to penetration may go a long way to helping him realize this fantasy again. I guess I want to feel the same way a fed mage feels or jungler feels. Impactful. Like when I am strong I should feel strong as Nasus not hey I got CC'd twice got focused be an adc and jungler and died even though I had IBG, SV , Merc, maybe a chain vest, giant's belt and was 4/0/0 in lane.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 26, 20161 votes

Haha yeah. Times have changed. He's the quintessential juggernaut, and when they reworked juggernauts they made sure that they needed help from the team because of their lack of cc (among other things).

I think you're right, in other words. I think it's hard to get raid boss Nasus. I'm not clear on whether or not Riot, as a whole, really "gets" that, but I'm sure at least some of the designers do. It's hard for Riot to admit something like that as a group, because many of them probably disagree about it. But yeah, he's a juggernaut now. No more 1v5s against teams that have cc, for better or worse.

Swiftstrike4Oct 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eIAIPvTZ,comment-id=001e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-26T15:29:00.375+0000)

AHHH! Your talking sense! I don't want to hear sense!!! LOL! J/k. No and I get that but it seems that Riot still considers him a late game Raid Boss champ, very difficult to take down while dealing terrific damage but I feel that doesn't happen very often and hence some of my frustration and confusion.

I do agree though that if the perception of him was admitted by Riot to be as he his now I would feel better about it. I agree and am not delusional that he's a mid- early late game champ. However all this being said and the changes to penetration may go a long way to helping him realize this fantasy again. I guess I want to feel the same way a fed mage feels or jungler feels. Impactful. Like when I am strong I should feel strong as Nasus not hey I got CC'd twice got focused be an adc and jungler and died even though I had IBG, SV , Merc, maybe a chain vest, giant's belt and was 4/0/0 in lane.

Maybe it is because you have played the game a lot longer than me, but I don't think I have ever held the perception as Nasus as a late game raid boss. At one point, I perceived him as as a late game champion when I first started, but that was just with my association of his infinite stacking mechanics, not because I was told by other people that's what he was.

After playing him awhile I just viewed him as a "champion that takes objectives really well" and "has pretty decent scaling into the game."

I do think Nasus spikes in the mid game and I also understand that the games where I achieve high stack counts are typically losses. When I hit 800 stacks I usually ask "what have I been doing to try to win this game?" or "what has my team been doing?". The answer is usually that we fought too many teamfights and we were not taking objectives in the process. When we get to this point in the game the better comp wins. It could also mean that I am the only one on the team doing well and the rest of my team is still behind or is not playing well.

I do think Veigar does exactly what a hyper is suppose to do. The mini-adjustments to his kit made his scaling higher but his earlier damage from his ult is lower.

The problem I think with the idea that "nasus is invincible in the late game" is that MOST competent Nasus mains can mechanically stack well and avoid early deaths. That is relatively simple and just takes time, but once a player has this down it would make Nasus a bit too strong across all Elos if stacking was all that was needed.

Mechanics is not an issue, but what really separates Nasus players from "average" to "good" is how they exert pressure and their decision-making. I don't think itemization is typically an issue since with Nasus, he only has about a dozen items in the game he can build, though I do think at the moment the split-push build is weaker.

I think I make relatively good in-game decisions, even if mechanically I am not as good as other players in my elo. The decison-making I developed by playing with Nasus and probably playing a lot of support. I think getting frustrated with the kiting in the game is understandable, but that is Nasus' weakness and kiting in the game is a bit easier to do than last season.

At that point though the importance is being able to survive while being kited and picking the proper fight later, which is why I think the ultimate changes are a buff and in the right direction for the champion.

Few champions can carry a game even if they are strong, but Nasus can carry, but it is largely through avoiding team fights and pressuring the map. I think they buffed him in an area that he was grossly deficient in and now he is doing better in that area while still maintaining his ability to split-push.

You may also have to step outside of the mindset that "I farmed well, I should be strong" and rewarded with Nasus and approach it from "I played carefully and made good decisions" as Nasus and I should be rewarded for that. Because I think stacking is just a fundamental component to Nasus that is largely only advantageous (or should be) in the bronze and silver Elo.

I wouldn't say their werent games I didn't feel useless as Nasus despite playing well, but I think everyone has those games, regardless of the champion they play.

Ravenous HowlsOct 27, 20161 votes

I am slowly starting to see that the changes has made him stronger and I am starting to carry a bit more like I used to. I think the idea now is you have to Ult ahead of a fight or right as the first initiation starts. That way by the time they blow their CC on you, your resistance are stacking nicely and it is much harder for them to take you out of the fight before your team converges on them.

I feel I make solid decisions as well. Not always, but hey no one's perfect. I try to pressure objectives and force the enemy team to break up and respond or group for other objectives on the map. I always hang onto my warding totem so I can place it around advantageous objectives so I can TP in if needed. I also only split push if I have vision and if my team doesn't need me. All of this is relative however if your team doesn't also properly support your decisions.

I've been playing since the end of season 1 early season 2 and Nasus used to have hyper carry late games. Back then though you had a 95% MS/AS slow with 700 range, no boost for stacking larger minions, monster or champion though and TF was the only viable item for damage on him outside of Atma's Impaler. Also FH was a lot better as well. Then mobility champs became the norm for Riot to create and a lot of items that were great for fighter/tanks were nerfed or outright removed. Atma's, Shureila's, Force of Nature to name a few.

I've not tried to make it sound that one should never lose if they play Nasus well only that it should feel harder for the enemy team to bring me down if I did do well. But like I said I think the advantage lies in being able to time your ult at the very start of an engagement to basically force the enemy team to focus you while your team engages on their carries.

Swiftstrike4Oct 27, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazarus Blade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eIAIPvTZ,comment-id=001e0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-27T14:29:11.708+0000)

I am slowly starting to see that the changes has made him stronger and I am starting to carry a bit more like I used to. I think the idea now is you have to Ult ahead of a fight or right as the first initiation starts. That way by the time they blow their CC on you, your resistance are stacking nicely and it is much harder for them to take you out of the fight before your team converges on them.

I feel I make solid decisions as well. Not always, but hey no one's perfect. I try to pressure objectives and force the enemy team to break up and respond or group for other objectives on the map. I always hang onto my warding totem so I can place it around advantageous objectives so I can TP in if needed. I also only split push if I have vision and if my team doesn't need me. All of this is relative however if your team doesn't also properly support your decisions.

I've been playing since the end of season 1 early season 2 and Nasus used to have hyper carry late games. Back then though you had a 95% MS/AS slow with 700 range, no boost for stacking larger minions, monster or champion though and TF was the only viable item for damage on him outside of Atma's Impaler. Also FH was a lot better as well. Then mobility champs became the norm for Riot to create and a lot of items that were great for fighter/tanks were nerfed or outright removed. Atma's, Shureila's, Force of Nature to name a few.

I've not tried to make it sound that one should never lose if they play Nasus well only that it should feel harder for the enemy team to bring me down if I did do well. But like I said I think the advantage lies in being able to time your ult at the very start of an engagement to basically force the enemy team to focus you while your team engages on their carries.

Yes, you need to use your ultimate a lot sooner, which took a few games for me to get use to since I had a habit of holding my ultimate.

Other Nasus players that I talk with said they are using their ultimate a lot sooner, what would be considered "prematurely" in the past patch.

I just notice I am not getting crushed when multiple people engage me and that my viability as a tank is significantly heightened even if I get caught or CC'd as long as my ultimate is available.

Which is another reason I think a full tank build with just triforce is going to be really good moving forward.

When I started in season 5 frozen heart was a lot better, then it became pretty costly toward the end of season 5 I think, and in most of preseason so I built it less. Right now I don't think it is bad, it is just slightly expensive ( I think they reduced its cost once recently). I think it was just because everyone was building it and the other armor options were not quite as good.

Then sheen got 10% CDR and IBG because a comparable buy offering the same amount of CDR, more damage, and similar levels of armor, while being cheaper. The passive was better too. Then everyone build IBG which now has been nerfed a few times to the point where I think FH is just a better item again.

FH will also be lowered again in the next patch. It still is the only armor item that comes close to thornmail in terms of resistances (It only has 10 less armor).

My biggest complain is that item 3024 is a terrible item for what you pay to get it. It should offer more resistances or be cheaper since CDR is so cheap these days. It's armor should be at least 35 or it should cost 800. It should not be only 50 less gold than item 3057 . Offensive items should always be more expensive than defensive items and offer something else. The two items are so similar outside of the the 25 armor that I can't believe riot has not either raised the cost to sheen, or lowered the cost of glacial shroud.

Ravenous HowlsOct 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes, you need to use your ultimate a lot sooner, which took a few games for me to get use to since I had a habit of holding my ultimate.

Other Nasus players that I talk with said they are using their ultimate a lot sooner, what would be considered "prematurely" in the past patch.

I just notice I am not getting crushed when multiple people engage me and that my viability as a tank is significantly heightened even if I get caught or CC'd as long as my ultimate is available.

Which is another reason I think a full tank build with just triforce is going to be really good moving forward.

When I started in season 5 frozen heart was a lot better, then it became pretty costly toward the end of season 5 I think, and in most of preseason so I built it less. Right now I don't think it is bad, it is just slightly expensive ( I think they reduced its cost once recently). I think it was just because everyone was building it and the other armor options were not quite as good.

Then sheen got 10% CDR and IBG because a comparable buy offering the same amount of CDR, more damage, and similar levels of armor, while being cheaper. The passive was better too. Then everyone build IBG which now has been nerfed a few times to the point where I think FH is just a better item again.

FH will also be lowered again in the next patch. It still is the only armor item that comes close to thornmail in terms of resistances (It only has 10 less armor).

My biggest complain is that is a terrible item for what you pay to get it. It should offer more resistances or be cheaper since CDR is so cheap these days. It's armor should be at least 35 or it should cost 800. It should not be only 50 less gold than . Offensive items should always be more expensive than defensive items and offer something else. The two items are so similar outside of the the 25 armor that I can't believe riot has not either raised the cost to sheen, or lowered the cost of glacial shroud.

Don't forget too that FH used to be better when it gave 25% attacks speed slow and 99 armor which used to be extremely powerful on Nasus vs many match ups. That one item would essentially allow you to force anyone out of lane b/c you could straight up out duel them while destroying their DPS for merely standing next to them. I think I started playing after it was officially lowered to 20% but still it was such a great item b/c back then all you saw were AA reliant champs, bruisers and tanks top.

I personally don't care for the idea of Sheen being more expensive as it is right now because it is one of the few items that is absolutely crucial to Nasus' ability to start being relevant but I do think Glacial shroud should have more front loaded stats or a cheaper cost. 800 sounds fairly reasonable.

Still on the fence if Trinity is the best option for Nasus. As with the ult change the AD steroid is gone effectively making the AS/AD wasted. Really the only thing attractive about the item is it's MS steroid and sheen proc. The health and mana are really too low to be considered decent in bulking up his sustain/resistances and CDR can be come by so easily now that I feel like it was a waste to put it on this item. Also I know to some over capping is not an issue but I personally don't like paying for stats I am not going to use. Trinity is just far less gold efficient then IBG atm. I'd rather just buy Titanic Hydra/ 3500 or Sterak's 2700 but none of the stats are wasted on Nasus. Personally if the item is to be made better they need to get rid of stinger and bring back zeal and remove 10% of the CDR. This will go leaps and bound in making the item better and more cost efficient not just for Nasus but for anyone who likes to use it.