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About the Cho'Gath Rework (Any Cho'Gath Rioters out there?)

Ironclad Dragon··3 votes·2,857 views

Okay, some champions strike gold with their ability set. These champs usually have very solid kits, so they're not only fun to play, but also very reliable, regardless of match-up. Riot can tweak their numbers all they want, but well-made champions aren't severely weakened when that happens. If a champion is changed and the overwhelming feedback isn't "Oh no, they lowered his ratios! He isn't viable anymore!", that might mean they're well-designed.

I'm not a support main but no means, but whenever I play Braum, I don't do that badly. It's weird. I never feel as if I'm useless, even if I'm not carrying the game. I can still apply stuns, blocks, defenses and knock-ups if I'm behind. Not only are his abilities strong, but they flow together and encourage the use of the others. That's why Braum feels solid in my head.

But these champions are few and far between. Most of the time, champions fall under "necessity" or "bust pick". It's saddening when I want to play a particular champ I've invested resources into only to feel I've chosen the wrong champion. It makes me regret playing that champ. These champions are often "Your opponent can make or break you; feed or get fed", and sometimes even when you do well, you might lose the match because you don't bring enough later to the game. http://wac.7725.edgecastcdn.net/807725/website/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Chogath-001.jpg The champion I want to bring up for this thread is Cho'Gath. He's one of the oldest champions in the game, and is one of my favorites. He helps fulfill the rampaging-monster power fantasy in League. But lately, I haven't done so hot with him. Call me bad if you like, but I wonder about him. His abilities are useful if properly employed, but Cho'Gath is a product of an older environment. In a meta of rapid response, he's cumbersome. He has no dashes, no initiators, and no way to help his teammates other than walking (slowly) into the line of fire. A proper Cho'Gath is a nightmare to fight, yes, but I don't feel solid while playing Cho'Gath though. I feel lumbering (and not in the good way). His abilities do not flow together; he doesn't feel cohesive.

So what can be done?

Prepares for the "Git gud".

25 Comments

TheI3igDaddy5 votes

Are we playing the same champion? How does his kit not fit him?

He's supposed to be this giant, lumbering monstrosity that wreaks havoc everywhere he goes. You're so big that you can stomp the ground and cause eruptions, you scream loud enough to shut entire teams up, and you eat anyone who gets in your way.

His main flaw is his immobility, but then again, it totally fits the character. If Cho'Gath had any mobility in his kit he'd be broken.

The only thing I'd want Riot to look at his his Vorpal spikes, because to me it just seems like a second Passive ability because there are few cases where you actually want to de-activate the toggle. Other than that though, his kit is amazing and perfectly fits his character WITHOUT being OP. Cho has been one of the most balanced champions for some time now.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

I think we're playing the same guy... is he big and purple, very spiky, chortles a lot?

His kit does totally fit the lumbering monster, though at times I think it's missing something (what, a giant monster, but he doesn't tackle, or stomp in a succession, or sweep aside enemies with his tail which looks like a mace? But that's a minor gripe). I do concur with your statement on his Vorpal Spikes. It's like Teemo's toxic shot, which you can't even turn off (in that case, why not make it an innate).

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

I think a tail spike could be really cool to add, but then he'd have to get his Rupture and Scream damage nerfed, most likely. It would even cement his ability as a teamfighter, as perhaps the tail strike could only affect those behind him and act like a mini Xin-Zhao ult. If they add that to Vorpal Spikes, though, you won't be able to toggle it off.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

Even a tail slap with a basic attack animation would do; Rek'Sai has one.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

yeah but that's just a visual as she spins around, I'm talking about something that doesn't make his model physically move, just having his tail rear up and swing violently to the side on activating the ability.

Nameless Voice1 votes

Vorpal Spikes is a toggle so that you can attack towers without drawing tower aggro.

RekSenpai1 votes

I rush Lich Bane (After jungle item) on Cho'Gath in jungle and he easily outspeeds everyone even without boots, so he can be a super fast jungler. As well as getting Dead Man's plate, you'll be really fast. Even faster than enemy champions that aren't the jungler. It's all just a matter of your build, if you go AP Cho yeah you won't be that fast unless you run Lich Bane, but if you run hybrid/tank you're gonna be faster than most of your team cause Dead Man's plate. (Randuin's if the ADC is running lot of crit of course.)

Nameless Voice4 votes

I actually think Cho'gath is a prime example of the kind of champion you were talking about.

He's one of the better-designed champions, who brings clear strengths and weaknesses and has good play and counterplay patterns.

The biggest issue with him at the moment is that hyper-mobile champions are popular, which can make it a bit hard for him to land his abilities. He's one of those champions who is balanced, as most league champions are, but he's not in that pool of "broken" champions that most people play these days, and which balanced champions can't quite compete with.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

Cho'Gath doesn't fall in with Braum for kit strength, I feel. None of his abilities really encourages the use of the others; they feel independent instead of cohesive. The end result may be accomplished, but it's not easy attaining that. His knock-up doesn't jive with his E other than general wave clear; he himself cannot initiate a fight while also getting into it, needing first to knock enemies up then move in slowly. Most of his abilities don't harden him up (save his ultimate and his "recovery-focused" innate); a good chunk of his survivability has to come from items.

Nameless Voice2 votes

That's because Cho is a disengage / peel tank more than an initiator.

His Q is awesome for disrupting (and eating) enemies who dive on his carries, while his W is great at disrupting enemy assassins who rely on abilities. His E is for waveclear and sustained team damage (especially if jungling.) It also doubles as an AoE slow if you have Rylai's, making him even better at peeling.

IIZargonII3 votes

Have you ever played cho'gath? Because the way you talk about him shows that you are either a massive idiot or you don't know how to play him.

BinkyBarnes2 votes

This Kid thinks he knows what he's talking about So many champs need reworks over him.

IIZargonII2 votes

Areed.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

I'm sorry, have I offended you in some way? I'm aware that so many other champions need reworks ahead of Cho'Gath. He can wait for a long while, in fact; that's fine. But does that invalidate talking about him anyway?

IIZargonII3 votes

You offended a Cho'gath main who understands the champion COMPLETELY and can see he has no reason to even consider a rework.

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

Academically, Is there not a single thing you would change about Cho'Gath, even a small change? Forget the scale of a rework for this conversation. Is there not one, however insignificant, detail you would change?

DrathTurtle3142 votes

His E.

I don't know how I feel about it. I love it for item 3116 slow on basic attacks, but I really don't like it as an ability. If it is there, it needs to be an ability because you need to be able to decide when to use it. I don't always want to push a wave, I don't want vorpal spikes unnecessarily drawing turret aggro. But it doesn't feel like an activated ability and that kinda bugs me.

I don't know, thoughts opinions, people raging at me 'cause I don't know what i'm talking about and should just uninstall?

PerishSoftly1 votes

His E is a toggle, so you can absolutely turn it off to stop auto-pushing or to safely attack towers when enemies are near.

IIZargonII1 votes

his textures are shit but aside from that nothing AT ALL is wrong with him

TheI3igDaddy2 votes

Bro you gotta calm down. I'm a Cho main myself, and there should be ALWAYS time for constructive discussion.

Do you think he's wrong? Okay, I think so as well, I think Cho is fine where he is. You shouldn't just lash out at him because he has a differing opinion.

BinkyBarnes1 votes

That's just your opinion

GuiltyGecko1 votes

Support Main here, but when I have to play Top or mid I always play Cho'Gath. He is actually my second most favorite champion behind Lulu. I don't think Cho needs a huge kit change to be useful. In fact, I think he's pretty useful right now as he has a lot of CC on his kit AND deal a lot of burst damage. I think the main problem with Cho, is that he doesn't fill a specific niche with his abilities. The question of "Why take Cho over other CC tanks?" is the issue.

Cho is unique, in that he is the largest champion in the game if you don't include bonus effects (Zac health stacking for example.) I think That part of him should really be emphasized. Perhaps he could have bonus effects depending on his stack amounts. A few I could think of off the top of my head would be that he could get tenacity at a certain amount of stacks so he can absorb skill shots for his team. Another would be that the range of his Q could become longer so he has an initiation tool.

Just a few ideas. Current Cho is pretty fun to play. If anything, I would just like the delay on Q to be a little shorter and the CD on his ult to go back down to 60. I hate how you can't use it as harass as often like you could before.

Puri Puri Taric1 votes

what rework just hope taric gets his rework fast so i dont have to care anymore about any coming reworks

PerishSoftly1 votes

I feel like Cho'Gath is one of the few "timeless" champs in League. His kit was originally designed very well, and it doesn't really have anything that should be added or taken away. He trades away mobility for AoE, speed for CC. His role straddles AP and tank in a way that made him the original AP bruiser.

Currently he's my go-to counterpick for champs like Malzahar in mid-lane thanks to his great sustain.

woodvsmurph1 votes

Riot has recently added so many high mobility champs to the game. This means many players who are skilled can simply sidestep cho's q without any boots even. It should be less telegraphed -- it is probably the most telegraphed non-ult in the game -- worse than illaoi or darius q for example. Cho's mana costs are also way too high and the cd's too long as compared to many other champs played in the top lane. Darius, fiora, renekton, poppy, etc. all have either way shorter cd spells with comparable base damage or way lower (or 0) mana cost to the spells. This means you cannot repeatedly trade damage with them as cho because you oom and then they win trades where you went even in IF you hit your spells. Thus lower cd and lower mana cost would be beneficial... or lower the cast time for q so it is less easy to dodge. I love the free sustain from cho's passive, but if you fall behind, your defensive stats are actually kind of weak which means you can't make effective use of your passive except farming under tower. Cho's ult is what makes him so much fun. You fight someone, get both of you to about 350hp.. maybe you are even a bit lower than the enemy and they think they have you beat. Then you just eat them and grow bigger. Nom nom nom nom nom. This absolutely needs to be kept or enhanced with any changes to cho. I actually personally like his e a lot too. You can troll maximize your sustain in some lanes building gunblade and e to spell vamp off the minion waves and enemy champs as you farm or fight... also it helps keep you from going oom so easily. His resistances are a bit too weak right now though -- it's similar to renekton's problem late game -- you are an hp tank rather than a resistances tank and your built in sustain (passive) doesn't function nearly as well as darius's q heal in fights or mid/late game duels. You either build full ap and hope you can land your hard to hit q and try not to get poked out or blown up when you go into MELEE range to land your spells, or you go tank and your spells deal 0 damage and auto's deal 0 damage (because you are not an ad bruiser) late game... meaning you offer cc and tanking but nothing else to your team -- so if your carries die you just kite around a long time and die without any chance to kill someone. I would like if they keep both tanky and full ap options available, but I feel like they might have to force cho in one direction or the other to give him a properly balanced and always viable kit in modern league... because he's too slow, too high mana costs, and has abilities that are too easily dodged or ignored because they deal no damage (depending on his build and what point of the game you are in).

q -- maybe a sion style -- aoe gets bigger longer you charge, area targeted only becomes visible 0.3 sec before it hits or it ripples out from cho in a wave like in the harrowing with cho bot w - make this in a circle around cho so there are no issues with champs using movement abilities that place them inside/beside the cone and dodging out on his silence because they dashed or something right as silence was being cast e - maybe add scaling based off mr or armor like malphite w? if you want to reinforce the tank role... or add some minor spell vamp for each rank ex: 2,3,4,6,7% r - drop rank 3 hp gain per stack to 150 from 180 but add resistances bonus other possibilities -- give more movespeed or a slow to his e -- rewarding cho's who go to melee to trade damage and allowing him to more easily land his q on mobile targets without having to build rylai's

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