I mean, health's supposed to your defense against true damage, right? Yet if a true damage scales with your health, getting more health doesn't help that much. It's like a magic damage ability that scales with your magic resist.
OurLestrade87 votesYep. I'm fine with true damage so long as its in flat amounts.
Anidan13 votesI think it depends, personally. Some champions they have are specifically designed to bust through anyone - no exceptions. I honestly, really and truly, think it's fine on Vayne because she's outright designed to be this auto-attack-centric carry that sweeps through your whole team later in the game one at a time, and her entire kit revolves around this idea and enforces it.
The problem with flat amounts vs. % true damage is that % is equally effective against squishies and tanks alike, while flat amounts are objectively stronger against squishies - some of whom may not be able to really afford to build defense against it until far later in the game. Transforming any source of % hp true damage to flat would be an outright buff to tanks for no real reason. Imagine trying to bust through Malphite or Mundo as Vayne late in the game if you had no % hp to help you through them (especially given that Malphite already has tools to help considerably against Vayne), and she's the League's premier tank-buster, outright designed for the role, with strengths and weaknesses that go along with that role.
Unless this whole thread is meant to be a dig at Fiora, because in that case I agree that her % hp true damage feels kind of superfluous and unnecessary. Nothing in her kit that I can see, besides low base damages on things that actually have damage, outright says 'hey, we need a huge % damage steroid!' She seems like she'd operate just fine with flat damage, or percentages in physical damage (or magical damage if you wanted to give her split scaling to make her a little harder to itemize against but not impossible, plus she'd share a primary damage source with the mage so your magic resist wouldn't be wasted).
Zelnorack3 votesIf she's supposed to be the 'late game hyper carry', wouldn't it make sense for her skills to be crap till they're maxed level? The problem is, right now, her power reaches a high-point at level 4.
Her % damage shouldn't be a thing till rank 5 silver bolts. Her tumble should have a much bigger cooldown till rank 5, then it should be what it is now. Condemn should barely knock back at rank 1, and knock you back a little more at rank 5 while not applying silver bolts.
The problem with her is that she has so much access to her 'late game dream' really early on. That needs to be addressed. That needs to be addressed on ALL 'late game champions'.
Anidan7 votesThat's because this is League. This isn't DotA. Loathe as I am to admit it, late-game champions need an early game on this game or they'll be 100% unusable. You can't give Vayne a Spectre-level early game or she'll be completely unplayable, same for Nasus and any other late-game champion. This game can't be stalled like DotA can to allow late-game gods to get there because aside from turtling in base this game has no stalling, period. You can't make them all that bad unless you just really never want to see them in the game.
Kuroi861 votesShe could still use a little toning down imo. She should at least have to get three to four items before she starts being a monster.
Anidan2 votesThe problem is the exact tuning that would require. Where does the '3-4 item' threshold apply? At what stats or ability benchmarks would you have to hit for a '3-4 item' threshold? That's a little too vague, honestly. Applying that would equate roughly to applying hard spreadsheets to measure the strength of the characters in the game and when they should hit their prime, and when they should fall off. Beyond that, item balance changes happen as well, as do general champion changes. You can't keep her at a 3-4 item threshold forever, even if you try, because some items will just accidentally benefit her more later on that changes that up and so you're forced into 2 things to try to keep that kind of specific power-budgeting: stagnate the game for the sake of balance (which a great deal many people would hate) or constant micro changes that wouldn't feel very impactful any time some change comes along that might give her an earlier spike (which a great deal many different people would hate).
So how would you enforce this item threshold? What levers do you pull? What do you about other champions who might also need this change? How often must we change her to keep her at this threshold? Would the effort to keep her at this threshold continually be worth it in the face of an ever-changing game whose balance shifts favor to different champions relatively frequently?
Verxint1 votesThe idea with her true damage was that you have to play around her, you can't just facetank. Same with Vayne.
The problem is that is scales like bonkers so she's doing 10% or more with two tanky DPS items
Anidan1 votesAs someone who had to play against that character in For Glory, Little Mac isn't OP but he can definitely go screw himself - while falling to his death after a throw.
The % on Fiora is overtuned, but it still seems odd. That said, it's probably the easiest way to balance her with Riot's vision of the character. It's equally effective on everyone, which is a relief to squishies even though tanks hate it. Although, tanks hate literally everything in this game, so I've honestly stopped paying them any mind unless it's actually a really good point.
Verxint2 votesLittle Mac is OP...
Until you use a back throw
The thing is melee carries need some way to force tanks to respect their damage. They can't go 5 damage items like ranged can.
Yas has his gigantic bonus armor pen buff Yi has AD scaling true damage and synergizes amazingly with magic on hit items Gangplank has all 3 damage types and built in penetration
Part of why tryndamere struggles is he has no proper tankbusting.
The same way that ranged carries work because eventually they will be able to kill you, melee carries work because they can kill you with less damage items thus getting to build defenses.
Fiora problem is just tuning. As a Fiora player I also think Ripost shouldn't slow attack speed unless it actually blocked something.
Hentai Collector10 votesLooking at you Fiora....
Slamurai Jack9 votesYou want to outduel a Fiora? Then stop stacking tank stats. It's really that simple. Straight stacking tank stats to win 1v1's has been too good for too long and it's about damn time we have a top laner to counter all the health and armor stacking assholes in top lane.
LankPants36 votesYou seem to be assuming every champ is a bruiser.
Sometimes I'm not trying to 1v1 a Fiora, I just want to survive against her for a bit in a fight as a tank. It's absolutely retarded that I can't build any defences to do this.
Slamurai Jack5 votesYou're still tankier against her. Fiora's overall damage is still only around 20% true damage, so building tank stats does make you last longer against her, just not as long it would against other champions. My point is, you can't expect to simply stack defensive stats and outduel a Fiora; you need to build damage and kill her. Same with Vayne and Master Yi. You can't simply stack defensive stats and rely on your base damages to win against those champs because you simply won't kill them fast enough.
LankPants19 votesFiora's overall damage is still only around 20% true damage
That's Fiora's overall damage, all the damage she deals over the course of a game, to all targets, including minions. Fiora can only deal Physical (and a bit of magic) damage to minions, no true damage.
That means, since most of Fiora's damage per game is against minions her true damage to champs is far higher than 20%, I don't have stats on this but I'd imagine it's closer to 50%.
If you need evidence of this look at Olaf. He's a champion who deals far less true damage kit wise than Fiora and yet deals more true damage per game than her. Why would this be? Because Reckless Swing is often used by Olaf when he's CSing.
hgjkdlsaf jeldvb3 votesThe true damage is also way more pronounced against tanks. I've had yi's deal wuju true damage followed by blade as the highest damage contributors against me. If you have even a little armor, champs like vayne and fiora will almost always have true damage as their highest damage source against you.
DarthSpectrum1 votesGet 
.
It drops her vitals.
LankPants26 votesQSS isn't really a good option for tanks, and let me get this clear, I'm talking about tanks like Sejuani, Naut, Amumu ect. Not bruisers like Shyvana and Mundo who may actually get some use out of Merc Scimitar.
Tanks can't afford to give up a slot and 1.3K gold for what is effectively a Null-Magic Mantle right now, they'll end up just dying to other threats because they lack the true durability to deal with them.
Ecodeath1 votesI'm talking about tanks like Sejuani, Naut, Amumu ect.
if you are taking those champs top you are going to lose anyway
LankPants21 votesI'm sorry I didn't realise teamfights were a thing that existed.
Ecodeath1 votesim sorry that you know that im smarter than u
Noam Braumsky4 votesWELLLLLL time to move on from this thread.
Llanite1 votesYou don't need to buy a scimitar, QSS works just fine.
QSS has 60% gold-efficient, i.e. you pay only 400g for an active that totally nulls someone's ult. Dirt cheap. What other critical 'durability' can you buy with 400g? 150 HP? 30 armor?
LankPants17 votesQSS has 60% gold-efficient
Qss is 60% gold inefficient, it has 40% gold efficiency. That is atrocious, especially if you're gold starved like tanks tend to be.
Llanite1 votesEveryone needs gold, tank or no.
The better question is, what do you get from saving that 400g? A ruby or a cloth armor? Would it make you THAT durable? 150g HP barely gives you 5% HP.
LankPants13 votesThe better question is, what do you get from saving that 400g? A ruby or a cloth armor? Would it make you THAT durable? 150g HP barely gives you 5% HP.
No, you're wrong. It's not 400 gold, it's 760 gold.
Also Ruby does a lot more than increase your HP by 5%. It's a 5% increase at 3000 HP without a Cinderhulk. With Cinderhulk it's a 5% increase 3450. Usually when you buy a ruby you have less HP than these numbers.
Everyone needs gold, tank or no.
Yes, and tanks have less gold to spend and as such less gold to waste.
You cannot afford to build a 1300 Null-Magic Mantle on a tank. that 760 worth of wasted gold can almost buy you a Neg Cloak or a Chain Vest, which are significant increases to durability.
Baron of Bread8 votesGold efficiency isn't everything, if it was bruisers would build nothing but Doran's Blades.
QSS is pretty slot inefficient, you are basically reserving that slot to be only effective against one champion while losing out on potentially more than 2400 gold worth in stats (not counting any actives or passives) that help against everyone.
While it might end up preventing more damage than the other item choices, Fiora could also just ult someone else, rendering QSS worthless.
bobsenbob3 votesok, I admit that fiora is extremely powerful, but all of you fiora qqers need to stop exaggerating fioras true damage, true damage only makes up 20% of her damage out put(stats from champion.gg) 80% of her damage is still physical, meaning that building armor still helps. You make it sound as if her passive makes her do 100% true damage on all abilities or someshit, which is not the case. While fiora is powerful, and %hp true damage is a toxic mechanic, you need to stop acting as if fioras auto attacks do 100% max hp true damage
LankPants9 votes20% of her damage all game against all targets is true damage.
How much of her damage is against minions? Because that's 100% Physical damage. Her damage spread against champs is much higher in true damage than 20%.
Sire Hippington2 votes20% of damage vs champs actuall, so minion don't matter. Still, vs her focusetarget with ult it's more 70%, and in a duel vs tanks even without ult it gets close to 50%, while squishys usually die with only one vital proc, if any at all, so squishys take usually below 10% truedamge from her.
SoMNia3 votesThat is her entire raison d'être as a fighter. She wins the front line by being able to focus down any single champion. The solution is to kill her, not stack defenses. If you can't kill her, avoid her and let someone else do it (like an ADC deals with an assassin). If nobody on your team can kill her, either she built tank and has little damage (so you focus their mage and/or ADC instead), or your team doesn't have enough damage.
Whatever the case, do not expect to be able to tank the designated tank killer. Seriously, just don't.
LankPants8 votesYou're forgetting one important factor about tanks when you say to avoid Fiora, Tank's are melee.
I can't just leave a Fiora alone in a fight, She'll destroy my backline. I have to react to her and do something, which means I have to get into her range.
Telling an ADC to avoid an Assassin is somewhat more reasonable the telling a tank to avoid Fiora, they most likely have at least a 550 range buffer on said assassin and where they don't they have mobility to kit back or are Urgot. Tanks do not have this buffer against Fiora, their effective range is Fiora's effective range.
SoMNia2 votesWell, yes, and if she ults you, she can be hard to escape. So bait out the parry and dump your CC (hopefully, your team has more than one stun, root, or heavy slow) while the backline you're protecting pours on the damage, like you would with any carry. An ADC will also kill a tank pretty quickly, albeit not as fast as her.
And if you're alone, remember she can't Riposte turret attacks, and unlike old Fiora, she doesn't have an ult version of Yi's Q to dodge with, so her diving potential is much lower. A Fiora who can burst you under your tower is also a Fiora who can die under your tower. Play keep-away with the vitals if she gets aggressive.
LankPants5 votesSo bait out the parry
I just want to point out the phrase "bait out" could be replaced with "hope she misplays with". Right now if Fiora plays correctly there's actually nothing you can do against her as a tank.
Dengeden2 votesYou can get Mogs (pls don't rush it tho) and win the war of attrition.
LankPants3 votesNot going to lie here, I fail to see how Warmogs can help against a champ who looks to all in you and doesn't care about your HP.
Dengeden3 votesIf you just wanna survive her instead of dueling her, sustain is the only option that comes to mind.
LankPants3 votesMog's only activates out of combat, it does nothing in an all-in.
Dengeden3 votesIt has some raw stats but that's beside the point. If you don't want to fight Fiora and constantly disengage, the passive is useful.
hgjkdlsaf jeldvb4 votesthat doesn't help if she all-ins you though... That was his point. Many tanks, most champs in fact, lack good enough disengage to get away from a 2s cd dash.
ModWulf Helhammer5 votesLet me ask you a question: do you remember all the unkillable tanks we had when cinderhulk first came out? And then how hard the juggernauts were to kill when they came out?
Yeah that's why
Boulderox19 votesCinderhulk and the tanks that capitalized on were hard nerfed... The irony is that tanks have very high win rates right now, but if you notice they are not the ones with the kills, in fact tanks are so strong because it is a carry meta, and any cc which is what tanks are for... Are allowing carries to do what they were meant to.
YumaS2Astral13 votesCinderhulk and the tanks that capitalized on were hard nerfed... The irony is that tanks have very high win rates right now, but if you notice they are not the ones with the kills, in fact tanks are so strong because it is a carry meta, and any cc which is what tanks are for... Are allowing carries to do what they were meant to.
Also because with the exception of 
tanks tend to be less popular than LC$ BIGPLAYS champions like 
and this tends to make tanks have higher winrate since the bad players aren't playing them; they are playing the LC$ BIGPLAYS champions and dragging down their winrates.
Feathermane6 votesAlso because with the exception of
This bullshit keeps getting upvotes. Unpopular champions aren't played only by 'mains' with hundreds of games, they have roughly the same proportion of new players. Why would 'bad' players gravitate toward Lee Sin and Nidalee instead of Urgot? And since the game uses a matchmaking system, how does that affect these champions' win rates? Presumably, if you kept playing Nid and losing, eventually your mmr would drop so much you win a few games, and leave you with a win rate of roughly 50%.
It makes no sense to claim these things, yet morons keep upvoting them.
weeaboomer5 votesYes, we should have no type of counter for a mundo stacking 5k hp.
KrugLyfe35 votes
La Barbotte21 votes
and hp scaling abilities like elise for exemple that ARENT TRUE DMG
Chespin201313 votesyou forgot these ones 
ahferroin75 votesYou all forgot 
...
Zelnorack2 votesI don't think people quite understand how horrifying these are to a mundo.
+15% physical damage is no joke. You will easily out-damage his healing with that, while the grievous wounds will slow it down to the point where mundo will be forced out of the fight quickly.
