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I think People should think about Rengar in a different way to most assassins.

Doozku··66 votes·2,249 views

When people talk about countering assassins, the first thing they talk about is burst windows. Generally, Assassins have easier access into the backline than most other classes, and are also high damage, squishy threats. Because of how easy it is for them to get onto the backline of an enemy team, generally they have to plan the assassination, or the assassination needs to have some kind of counterplay. Zed can't just pounce on to you and blow you up, he needs to ult you and dodge a bunch of skillshots before jumping out. Kha'zix needs to wait for his target to be isolated before jumping in, and Talon needs to get a good flank going for him to use his ultimate the best way possible. There is one assassin, however, that was infamous for his incredibly short burst window, and that champion is Rengar. When people remember old Rengar, they remember him coming out at you from stealth before you even knew he was coming, and then he jumped on you and killed you. There wasn't much counterplay, because he was completely invisible and his kill pattern was near instant and almost unavoidable. All in all, he made for a frustrating experience.

On the other hand, oneshotting targets on Rengar was one hell of a rewarding experience. There was no other feeling in league like jumping onto your target and watching them melt. It was incredibly satisfying and felt buttery smooth to play as. So it was incredibly disappointing when the rework came out to many Rengar mains. It wasn't that they removed his oneshot, its that they removed it and replaced it with a kill pattern that felt easy, clunky, and unskillful to use. Simply put, it wasn't a rewarding kill. And of course, Rengar had to be nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed until his only viable build became the bruiser build that we know today. I feel that a large part of this comes from the fact that Riot kept the frustrating parts of Rengar intact, while removing what made Rengar fun to play in the first place.

But I think for a future rework, we need to redefine what Rengar's burst pattern actually is, in a way that keeps his classic "oneshot," but still feels fair to play against. You see, with most assassins actually getting to your target is not a challenge. Zed can just press R, Kha'zix can just leap to the target, LB can dash to her target, and Talon can leap over walls and use his ultimate. To counter that, assassins generally need to spend more time killing their targets and need to outplay them, like Zed or LB, or their kills are dependant on a certain condition being true, like Kha'zix with his isolation. What if Rengar was the opposite of that? What if his skill was fast and consistent, a "oneshot" if you will, but his gap-closer was difficult to use and required careful skill and planning? His burst window wouldn't start as soon as he got a leap on you, it would begin as soon as Rengar pressed R and began the hunt. I feel like Riot made some strides in this direction with his rework, but they didn't go far enough and instead put more of the "counterplay" onto his new Q.

Countering Rengar with this kit idea would be different to any other assassin. Instead of flashing at the right time, or outplaying them, you instead need to focus mainly on macro play to beat Rengar. Stick with your teammates. Don't go alone to farm as an ADC when you don't know where Rengar is. And when a teamfight breaks out, stick together and make sure to save some cc for the Rengar. That's the kind of counterplay he should have. Not this, "oh dude his Q is a skillshot you can dodge it or flash it and stuff so much counterplay."

So here are some ideas for his rework. These ideas are assuming that Rengar's Q and ferocity have been reverted and these changes are primarily to his current R. Note that with this new rework, jumping on the mark will not give you a crit and instead will regenerate ferocity like how the old ultimate did.

Idea #1: Removed TL;DR: ult same as live but he can only leap to marked targets.

Idea #2: You now pick your target from the kindred mark selection screen. That target will be marked and can see Rengar, as well as Rengar being able to see him. Rengar will be camouflaged to all other targets, although his reveal range is still the same. This change would promote countering Rengar with good communication and teamwork, while possibly being more deadly when you lack communication. May be too powerful in soloqueue, would need testing to see if this version would be effective.

Alteration: Now Rengar can only get stacks from targets he kills when marked by his ultimate, to prevent him from snowballing incredibly quickly. More power can be put onto the stacks to compromise, if necessary.

Idea #3: Rengar loses the mark, but he now leaves a global roar upon using his R. He becomes stealthed but his stealth reveal range is much larger than on live, think like 1000-1500 units, or maybe even 2000 units. This change would still let Rengar avoid wards up until he gets close to you, in which case the hunt is on. Probably the weakest out of the 3 ults but most likely the fairest, and closest to the original. Also the most balanced for both pro and casual play out of the three of them.

Edit: Idea #4 and alteration to idea #2. Also apparently no one likes idea 1 so we are just gonna cross it out.

Idea #4 (Note: This idea can be added to any of the other ultimates on the list, but I feel like it would be the best with idea #2, as that is my favorite so far.):

Ferocity system changed to be the same as that on live.

New: While in your ultimate, you begin to charge ferocity over time. A stack charges every (second? half a second if a second is too long). A heart beat effect is added to the tint around your screen if you are nearby Rengar when he ults. This heartbeat speeds up the more ferocity that Rengar gains. When Rengar leaps (to the marked target if applicable), he gains all of his extra ferocity from the charge up time. Note that the ferocity from the charge goes over top of the ferocity you already had stored. So say if you had 0 ferocity and you ult, your leap would generate 1 ferocity, but you would also have the 4 ferocity from your ult. When you use the emp spell, you will have 1 ferocity. With this change, more power would have to be put into EMP Q to promote players using it over just normal Q with the instant jump, so power would be moved away from the normal Q and put into the EMP Q.

24 Comments

Dreadlocks11 votes

You can no longer jump to any target except the marked one.

This was tested, and as i suspected it was awful for the Rengar player.

Idea #2: You now pick your target from the kindred mark selection screen. That target will be marked and can see Rengar, as well as Rengar being able to see him. Rengar will be camouflaged to all other targets, although his reveal range is still the same. This change would promote countering Rengar with good communication and teamwork, while possibly being more deadly when you lack communication. May be too powerful in soloqueue, would need testing to see if this version would be effective.

Where are you going with this? What I mean is, is Rengar limited to this marked target? Or is it simply to be camo to every1 except the person he marks? Also, does it tie into his bonetooth stacks at all? Kind of like Kindred?

Idea #3: Rengar loses the mark, but he now leaves a global roar upon using his R. He becomes stealthed but his stealth reveal range is much larger than on live, think like 1000-1500 units, or maybe even 2000 units. This change would still let Rengar avoid wards up until he gets close to you, in which case the hunt is on. Probably the weakest out of the 3 ults but most likely the fairest, and closest to the original. Also the most balanced for both pro and casual play out of the three of them.

This shouldn't be tied into an assassin at all. Assassins are suppose to do things quietly so nobody knows.. Think of like a Hitman, a Hitman doesn't want to be caught does he?

Now of course we are playing a game so not all these things apply. The thing we run into is exactly what we have on live. Rengar players will hold using their ult as long as they can till they get closer to their target, that way it doesn't signal them too soon. So you don't really fix the issue of 1 shotting from stealth, you just make Rengar look like a lousy hunter.

Doozku5 votes

I think you are missing the point of these changes. The ultimate is supposed to be difficult for the Rengar player to use, because if you get to use it properly, you get a big payoff (being a near guaranteed kill on a squishy.) As for some other points...

This shouldn't be tied into an assassin at all. Assassins are suppose to do things quietly so nobody knows.. Think of like a Hitman, a Hitman doesn't want to be caught does he?

I think that being an assassin in game doesn't mean that the character has to meet all of the archetypes of being an assassin. Rengar's lore is that of a hunter, who stalks his prey. When you are being stalked, you notice that something is off, almost like you're being watched. Of course, there's no way to get that feeling across in league, so the roar is there to signify that the hunt has begun.

Now of course we are playing a game so not all these things apply. The thing we run into is exactly what we have on live. Rengar players will hold using their ult as long as they can till they get closer to their target, that way it doesn't signal them too soon. So you don't really fix the issue of 1 shotting from stealth, you just make Rengar look like a lousy hunter.

Is that a problem? If you use the ult late, you risk being spotted by wards because you don't have any camo. Like I said, the counterplay to Rengar should be macro play. I feel like the nuances of the ultimate, using it for zoning, or using it after you are in position, are what are going to make it unique. It isn't just a "press R and now I get to walk to the target and kill them." There's nuance to this spell, and different ways to use it properly. Whether its to use the fear aspect for zoning, casting it early so you can scout the target and the location (thinking about it more, I think his R should give vision to everywhere nearby him regardless of the mark mechanic.), or travel without fear of wards, or using it late once you are in position to get a safer kill.

Where are you going with this? What I mean is, is Rengar limited to this marked target? Or is it simply to be camo to every1 except the person he marks? Also, does it tie into his bonetooth stacks at all? Kind of like Kindred?

He's camo to everyone except the person he marks, and he can only jump to his mark to prevent abuse cases where Rengar marks someone but goes to kill someone else on the other side of the map. Also, at first I didn't feel like it should be tied to his bonetooth, but when you brought this up I had the idea to make it so he can only get bonetooth stacks from kills with his ultimate. I feel like it would make the bonetooth mechanic more interesting and make it less snowbally, since you now can't just get all your stacks in the matter of a few minutes or perhaps even one skirmish that went terribly wrong. It would also allow for his stacks to have a bit more power put into them, since they become much less of a variable than they are right now.

Now, because of your post, I've actually had a few ideas. You talked about the problem with him using it early and while I don't feel like that's much of a terrible problem, I came up with an idea that actually solves this problem and make the hunt mechanic even more interesting. Here's the idea.

Idea #4 (Note: This idea can be added to any of the other ultimates on the list, but I feel like it would be the best with idea #2, as that is my favorite so far.):

Ferocity system changed to be the same as that on live.

New: While in your ultimate, you begin to charge ferocity over time. A stack charges every (second? half a second if a second is too long). A heart beat effect is added to the tint around your screen if you are nearby Rengar when he ults. This heartbeat speeds up the more ferocity that Rengar gains. When Rengar leaps (to the marked target if applicable), he gains all of his extra ferocity from the charge up time. Note that the ferocity from the charge goes over top of the ferocity you already had stored. So say if you had 0 ferocity and you ult, your leap would generate 1 ferocity, but you would also have the 4 ferocity from your ult. When you use the emp spell, you will have 1 ferocity. With this change, more power would have to be put into EMP Q to promote players using it over just normal Q with the instant jump, so power would be moved away from the normal Q and put into the EMP Q.

This idea wouldn't necessarily fix the problem of him using his ultimate by walking up to you, since he can use his ultimate when he is already in position to kill you, but he still has to wait 4 seconds if he wants the maximum ferocity. But if he feels like he doesn't need to charge up his ferocity, say if you are very low or if you are alone and an easy target for him, he can just ult you and immediatly jump, but in teamfights or against tough targets, he'll likely want to wait for his ferocity to charge up so he can get the guaranteed kill.

Dreadlocks3 votes

The ultimate is supposed to be difficult for the Rengar player to use

In some regards sure, but i feel like there are better ideas than simply screaming across the map.

New: While in your ultimate, you begin to charge ferocity over time. A stack charges every (second? half a second if a second is too long). A heart beat effect is added to the tint around your screen if you are nearby Rengar when he ults. This heartbeat speeds up the more ferocity that Rengar gains. When Rengar leaps (to the marked target if applicable), he gains all of his extra ferocity from the charge up time. Note that the ferocity from the charge goes over top of the ferocity you already had stored. So say if you had 0 ferocity and you ult, your leap would generate 1 ferocity, but you would also have the 4 ferocity from your ult. When you use the emp spell, you will have 1 ferocity. With this change, more power would have to be put into EMP Q to promote players using it over just normal Q with the instant jump, so power would be moved away from the normal Q and put into the EMP Q.

I like this idea, could test go through testing for fluidity. But it would def fit his theme as a stalker.. It would reward players to catch the target after stalking for a long time, and therefore an early indicator might be worth showing. And for the lesser indicator because you don't want to show it, you get less ferocity. Like the idea guy. +1

Sauceyapples1 votes

I would prefer a really cute kitten noise as opposed to a roar.

THE RlVER KlNG7 votes

'I want to be able to oneshot again'

'I want Rengar to feel more fair for his opponents'

pick one

Doozku8 votes

We can have both. World doesn't have to be so black and white.

Rengooo6 votes

Fun to play > one shot.

The one shot isn't going to come back mate, nor should it.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

{quoted}

Fun to play > one shot.

The one shot isn't going to come back mate, nor should it.

Preach

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I mean mine is, when I'm against a fed Rengar. Damn boy near made me go colorblind.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

There is no game in which being oneshot is fun or fair. Doubly so for trying to implement a champion whose whole gameplay fantasy to you is oneshotting opponents from stealth, which isn't and shouldn't be.

Doozku1 votes

The point though that the fight begins as soon as he presses R, not when he jumps on you. Therefore, its not a oneshot in the sense of he kills you with no counterplay. The counterplay is to avoid him and stun him before the initial leap, which is what old Rengar failed to accomplish and is why he was reworked in the first place.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

No, the healthy way to rework Rengar is to make it so that he's useful outside of deleting one person and then dying.

You are a fool if you think that oneshots are fair in any way. Blithely insisting that a oneshot should be allowed because you can sometimes stun the leap is foolish and horrendously biased. So is pretending that you can just 'avoid' Rengar. Either he clicks on you or he doesn't and while he doesn't he gets a huge zoning tool that is not good for game health either.

This thread was doomed from the start when you insisted that Rengar should be allowed to oneshot agian. That is literally the reason they reworked him. In no video game across any genre or platform is an insta-kill from a stealthed character good for the game, no matter what you tell yourself.

Dextix LT5 votes

Idea #2: You now pick your target from the kindred mark selection screen. That target will be marked and can see Rengar, as well as Rengar being able to see him. Rengar will be camouflaged to all other targets, although his reveal range is still the same. This change would promote countering Rengar with good communication and teamwork, while possibly being more deadly when you lack communication. May be too powerful in soloqueue, would need testing to see if this version would be effective.

Worst idea EVER.

On soloq this would make the champion the old rengar, because believe me, the marked guy will not write in chat where you are, because he wont be that fast.

And against any team with voicecomms this would be USELESS and even make rengar WORSE as his ult would become literally unusable!3

This idea creates an INSANE divide between voicecomm/chat players and in both cases makes the ability worse (In one way or another) than it is now!

Doozku2 votes

On soloq this would make the champion the old rengar, because believe me, the marked guy will not write in chat where you are, because he wont be that fast.

Everyone would still get the tint and see that Rengar has ulted the person. Also you can still ping to where he is and where he is coming from. If you use this spell strategically, like say in the heat of a teamfight where everyone is focusing on their targets and many spells are on cd, Rengar can strike and take out enemies with ease. The point of these changes is to make his R harder to use, and make it be a more skillful spell than just "press R now I walk to the enemies and they die," and this is because with the return of the old Q, he will be able to eliminate targets incredibly quickly.

Also if in voice comms the ult the ult would not be unusable. At worst, it would be like the other suggestion, where Rengar doesn't have his stealth. But even then, you won't be able to tell exactly where he is to land spells on him, and it wouldn't even matter that much since the ranges on most abilities are going to be lower than that of his leap range, so you need to position in front of him.

These changes in conjunction with idea #4 would likely give you enough time to spam ping the crap out of where Rengar is going to be, or for you to get to a better position in preparation to fight him.

Dextix LT1 votes

It would be unusable, because in voicecomms the targeted player will be able to give a play by play of rengars movements to the team. You dont need to see rengar yourself, it is enough for one player to see and talk about it. This again, creates a huge dispariy between premade voicecomm players and those who use the chat.

The chat suggestion is a worse option than voicecomms, it will be less accurate, and spamming is not an option, since there are systems in place,to prevent ping spamming.

These changes are not making the spell harder to use, they make it useless as a skill completely, creates disparity between voicecomms/chat.

Paroe4 votes

@thread Rengar IS NOT an assassin. He is a diver.

O-o

Doozku3 votes

Yes but we are talking about old Rengar here.

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

Yes but we are talking about old Rengar here.

You are? And here i thought this was a complaint thread about the current rengar...

kile1471 votes

Complaint is that he is supposed to be an assassin and Riot has made him a bruiser diver because they couldn't make his assassin build fair.

Kore Ga Requiem1 votes

{quoted}

@thread Rengar IS NOT an assassin. He is a diver.

O-o

And Riot said they will keep him an assassin.But you can see they changed his class.

Aptest3 votes

Ok, here is the problem with your idea.

the TL;DR: What happens to the game if the best and most powerful OP play style / champion is not fun ?

I think you miss-judge the extent to which "stay with team, don't go alone" is an oppressive play style that just isn't fun.

You are not saying anything new: Stick with team at all times is the traditional way to play effectively VS rengar. This worked VS all the variants of rengar including the most OP ones. The fact that this was effective as a counter play is the chief argument against rengar changes/nerfs/re-works.

The problem is that stay with team is just not fun. It robs you of your ability to independently make decisions in the game because all your decisions now have to be vetted by the team, and this is not a fun place to be in.

Following that, the need to adopt a stay with team play style also shifts your champion pick - especially with some roles - towards champions that specialize in defending allies. Before you state that all supports are specialists ni defending allies i'll just say that this isn't true. Bard is not principally a protector. Tresh is not principally a protector. Taric isn't principally a protector, Sona isn't principally a protector and so on.

IT IS reasonable to expect that opponents change their play style and champion picks to conform to what you are forcing on them. However this is not an absolute: there is some threshold beyond which the extent that the other guy has to adapt to you makes the game as a whole less fun for the other guy in a meaningful way, and becomes unreasonable.

**The question is: how much is reasonable? ** and the answer of "as much as it is required to allow the rengar dream to be" is not reasonable.

Stick with allies is definitely something that isn't always fun. Specifically it isn't fun when the allies dictate the game for you: and that is something that will happen constantly for SOME roles if your "suggested counter-play" is accepted.

Why do you like Rengar? From another Rengar main's thread, part of this is being independent. Being able to do things alone in the game and progress the win condition without the team needing to "vet" your actions. This is definitely a strong component of "fun" in the game and your suggestion is to remove some of it to gain "power".

I would like to conclude with a question, and please think about this as it is my main point: What happens to the game if the best and most powerful OP play style / champion is not fun ?

GelsominoKiller2 votes

I like a lot the idea #3 as long as there is no global roar.

I actually believe that any form of warning ruins the hunter theme and fantasy. If possible I'd avoid it.

Turning rengar ult into a flanking tool is a pretty good direction. Small movement speed buff to roam in the enemy jungle, invisibility and full vision on the enemy team like it used to do his old ult. I would tone down the movement speed as it helps too much as an hard engage and would shift all the power into finding the right angle to leap.

kile1471 votes

I think the best way to achieve this goal is to mix things up a little more.

P: Roughly same as current, trophy stacking for extra damage. Q: Kept the same as current. W: Same healing mechanic as current, but empowered only cleanses slows E: Same as current, except that it adds a mark to the target that amps the damage of your next auto or ability. Amp starts at +20% and scales up based on time (over 2 seconds) to +50-100% (based on level). Mark lasts ~5 seconds total before wearing off. R: Is now true invisibility not camo, does not give jump attack (unless done out of a bush). Still gives global warning, but if you get a kill during the 12/16/20 second duration you can use the ability again. Only gives movespeed towards marked targets.

The goal of this is that if a target is isolated Rengar can assassinate them roughly the same. If he uses ult he no longer gets guaranteed jump and unless you are marked he won't do as much burst, so the global warning is a sign to group with your team (they can body block E) and avoid bushes. If Rengar gets the kill he is rewarded by being able to stealth again and get out and possibly reposition for another assassination.

Daizumi1 votes

Idk if its just me, but i feel like if they just reverted Rengar but then kept his ult the same as the new one, people would complain less. Idk if its a good idea, just throing it out there

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