Why the Rengar Rework is Hilariously Overpowered on the PBE

Doozku··47 votes·5,891 views

In my opinion, the Rengar rework is actually pretty fine. However people seem to overbloat the power of tank rengar. IMO when rengar comes out, his tank/bruiser build will be strong, but it will be overshadowed because his assassin build is hilariously broken and with little counterplay.

The main thing that makes it broken is his new ultimate. While most people think of it as a massive nerf, the main thing to consider is that the ultimate gives you a GUARANTEED CRITICAL HIT. People really undervalue the power of a guaranteed crit, as something like that has never been put onto a champion, aside from Fiora and Shaco . However the difference is that Fiora is not an assassin, and Shaco's entire burst is put onto his crits and his E. The people who say that "assassin rengar is weak," or "please buff assassin rengar," are simply not building him right, or building him like old rengar.


Let's analyze Rengar's current build, which is something like this item 3077, item 1412, item 3158, item 3142, item 3087 /item 3046, item 3031, item 3046 /item 3087
The reason that this build works is that Rengar is very much auto attack based. His Q is an auto attack modifier, and it also gives him attackspeed. This is why we build crit, for the Q damage; and item 3077, for the stronger clear.

New Rengar no longer relies on auto attacks. His Q is not an auto attack, nor does it give attack speed. The only auto attack based ability in his kit is the leap on his passive and his ult. This means that_ building crit and attack speed is worthless on Rengar_, as well as item 3077, since he doesn't rely on autos as much as before. Instead he would rather amplify his Q and crit damage with armor pen lethality and AD.

The new Rengar build should look something like this: item 1412, item 3158, item 3142(Edge of Night if versus big AP threats), item 3031, item 3147/item 3142 if you didn't buy it already, Edge of Night, item 3812 /Other damage items or defensive items that you may need.

Even though I said that crit is crap, we still take IE since it amplifies our crit, as well as giving us a sizable amount of AD.


Using this build against a theoretical target with no armor, taking into consideration the bonus AD that rengar now gains from bonetooth, and ignoring any runes or masteries, a level 18 Rengar now crits for about 1677 damage on his crit alone. If the lethality stat removes the rest of the target's armor, that's enough to take out most ADCs instantly. And keep in mind that is without bonuses like infernal drakes or runes and masteries, which could even take your AD up to 1000, which would deal about 2.5k damage in 1 crit. That is without even using a single ability, I'm sure that rengar could pull off about 3k to 4k damage on a target with no armor. Now obviously most champions with that much HP would probably have armor, but it goes to show how little Rengar actually has to do to kill someone now. Plus it drastically increases his escape now, as he can now get enough ferocity to either stay in the fight with emp q, stun someone with emp e, or just run away with emp w's cc cleanse. This is incredibly unhealthy, as somehow there is even less chance for counterplay now.

Luckily, I believe that this is easily fixed with a number change. Remove the guaranteed crit and instead make his next auto on the marked ult target do 150% bonus damage rather than the 250% damage that the current rengar brings to the table. Afterwards tank rengar may become a problem, but we'll have to see because of his huge reliance on bonus AD over base AD.

Mark my wards, if this is not resolved, rengar will get a solid 60% winrate for the first few days of the patch, until he is hot-fixed nerfed.


Edit 1: It appears that I undervalued the power of item 3074, and a lot of you have called me out for it. The main argument for this item is that it gives strong AD, lifesteal, and the active adds more burst, and you're right. You can probably take this item over item 3147 or item 3812 if you don't need sustain, although I am not sure if Duskblade would deal more damage. The new Duskblade passive seems pretty strong, especially on Rengar, and lethality is very strong.

69 Comments

Ben Sharpio9 votes

lol holy shit. But in a way Rengar's play style is STILL the same. You go in, kill someone, and die right after. What's wrong with this style of gameplay? I want a reliable assassin to instakill ridiculously overpowered late-game ADC's and mid laners. Besides. If you really wanna stop him from doing his job, just pick Janna because Janna is a balanced support and can easily peel him off

Troll for Trump4 votes

See, current Talon does exactly that, and people complain about it.

ADC mains :[

Sire Hippington5 votes

because Janna is a balanced support

just can't tell if sarcastic or not

YoungFarmer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Sion Bot l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MgYeL15Z,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-26T01:50:47.574+0000)

lol holy shit. But in a way Rengar's play style is STILL the same. You go in, kill someone, and die right after. What's wrong with this style of gameplay? I want a reliable assassin to instakill ridiculously overpowered late-game ADC's and mid laners. Besides. If you really wanna stop him from doing his job, just pick Janna because Janna is a balanced support and can easily peel him off

With that new spell shield assassin item he could easily throw that on, and when janna ults he wouldnt get knocked away

ReZisT Lust1 votes

and if he times it right he can yell really loudly and not get pushed away

The Deckowner4 votes

I honestly don't understand why Rito love to add the so called guarentee crit mechanic to the game, could have just add bonus flat damage.

Doozku2 votes

The guaranteed crit isn't a bad mechanic, but it obviously needs some restrictions. Shaco is a good example of a restricted crit. This is a good example of an unrestricted crit

Doozku1 votes

Oh yeah and putting a crit on a champion that already has enough burst without it.

Spaceman5pff7 votes

Actually, unless he is already a bit snowballed, Rengar is not going to oneshot you with the initial 3 spells. You will have time to get away, since he will not get movespeed untill he empowers an ability.

If you STILL die because you are one of those ADC's that splitpushes alone at or past the river, then it is your fault and has nothing to do with Rengar other than his doing his job properly by punishing you for being stupid.

Doozku1 votes

The problem is that he can get a lead and run with it. He can gank top early since the toplaner will not be his priority and thanks to the new bonetooth he will start to snowball very quickly. Obviously every assassin can snowball but the point of this rework was to weaken massive snowballs that assassins tend to have. For Rengar, they did not do a good job at this.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

The point of the assassins rework was to increase the ability of the enemy team to counterplay the assassins.

The change to Rengars ult and ferocity did that.

They are not to make Assassins not snowball.

The Yetii Rider17 votes

Several reasons

  1. It interacts with critical amplifiers, thus giving you a way to opt-in to additional burst by buying Infinity Edge or by running critical damage runes.

  2. It interacts with critical negatives like item 3143 , making tanks have an easier time itemizing against it than if it was just a huge amount of flat damage.

  3. The damage is not flat, it's a multiplier, and thus it scales off Rengar's AD (he can't build tank)

  4. High flat damage would synergize too well with Lethality, giving Rengar too much of a power spike at level 6 with only one item.

  5. Critical strike damage scales better into the late game and scales better with Bonetooth Necklace.

  6. The critical amplifier gives more benefit for building lifesteal, so a Rengar that is ahead can grab a item 3812 and use it to heal off an enemy as he's engaging on a fight.

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MgYeL15Z,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2016-10-26T03:04:40.755+0000)

Several reasons

One more: You can't build crit on top of it for an even higher amount of burst damage, the devs have more control over what the high, average, and low end of the burst damage is.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

In this case, I think it was to give some sort of reward to the enemy team if they manage to stay between Rengar and their ADC. Also, it makes the choice of ulting or not into a choice about both damage AND approach.

Saianna3 votes

But wouldn't building things like:

Sheen

Tiamat

Be like your basic go-to for super fast ADC trashing?

Same goes with PRO Shacos (Shaclone). They do buy Tiamats even though they have little in common to AAing much. It's there just to use it's active or wave clear.

Doozku10 votes

Yes but when a shaco clears he only uses his autos, like old rengar. His new Q is already aoe so he doesn't need Tiamat for clearing. As for sheen, the build options it has seems a little limited for rengar. I think some AD and armor pen items would be stronger.

Saianna1 votes

His new Q is already aoe so he doesn't need Tiamat for clearing

wow.. I have some huge holes in info there @_@

Rito.. y u doing weird stuff that will obviously backfire in out face... duh

Doozku1 votes

Well it's not strong aoe, but its decent. I'd say just read the assassin page and go watch some videos to see what I mean. In the new jg, AOE doesn't look as important, atleast strong AOE.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Once you have some AD built up, Hydra active does VERY good damage. It functions as an extra spell (albeit with no ferocity tied to it) and it grants great extra burst.

My build on the PBE has been along the lines of Rengar item 1400 item 3074 item 3142 item 3071 item 3053

Solid bursting power and survivability. I am not confident that this is an optimal build though, as Edge of Night more than likely has a place on Rengar. Also, in situations where extra survivability is not needed, Duskblade can be a great option; however it should be noted that the new Duskblade is better optimized for Champions that can repeatedly break vision in a fight.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I feel it's more because A. He doesn't need mana from Iceborn or Triforce B. He doesn't really need AP C. His new kit REALLY rewards building AD. Just pure AD. The sheen items don't give much bonus AD.

Photos of Ghosts4 votes

No more AP on sheen

Hinagiku331 votes

I think he was just referring to Lich Bane as the other item someone can build Sheen into

Troll for Trump1 votes

Iceborn has Ap though

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Noapz. Sheen + Glacial Shroud. Mana and armor.

maikokk1 votes

you cant use the mana argument for triforce anymore. the new triforce is gold efficient without the mana and only provides a litttle bit. also no AP on sheen as the other guy said.

the only reason triforce rengar isnt common is black cleaver exists. it fills its slot in any beefy bruiser build you can think of for rengar. they both have 20% cdr and phage and BC is flat out easier to build

Sire Hippington1 votes

Tiamat is mostly for the active, adding another 1.0 ad-ratio to your burst for little money, and even though new rengar has waveclear in his Q, that timat still is handy, like for then the minions survive Q with ~10hp, one AA and you still have em al clear with tiamat. Same for junglecamps, it's not as needed as on old rengar, but still usefull. And the stats it offers aren't to bad either.

VI VI VI3 votes

I played against him several times on pbe and its hilarious how broken he is . And the fact that he can get 1000Ad

Robert Smith5 votes

Jhin

Weathered2 votes

Imo the guaranteed crit needs to be a smaller % like Shaco's old Q / new passive

Saianna2 votes

Shacos old Q dealt 240 (or 220% ?) when maxed... So it was still bigger than basic crit. And it worked with IE, so 250% ;)

Doozku1 votes

Yes but that and an E is it for Shaco's burst. Rengar still has an E and two Qs ;)

Saianna2 votes

But.. We just talked about guaranteed crit. Other abilities are in void :P

Doozku2 votes

Ok fine, have it your way. Shaco's Q is also his escape, when he uses it for burst, he doesn't get an escape, or playmaking potential.

Rengar ult is his initiation, so when he uses it, he can use his other abilities(emp W) to escape.

;)

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

270%. IE doesn't set you to 250%, it gives you 50% more crit damage, wherever you're at.

Sire Hippington1 votes

depends on wether it scales multiplicative(which would be 280%) or additive. Yasuo for example doesn't get 50%, but 45% bonus damage from IE as his 10% reduced crit damage is multiplicative.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Why do people think Hydra is bad on rengar now just because he has wave clear on Q? He can easily get 700 AD which means the Hydra active will do just that much too. So if you cast it mid air, you are easily adding 700 Dmg to your all in. AND you still get 75 AD. And i have tested new rengar on PBE, his passive is over loaded, but his ult is pretty meh in comparison to live. Much less freedom, and more strict on its damage.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Imo the bigger part for broken assasin rengar is the up to 30% bonus ad from the necklace. A 200%(250%) ad ratio on his first hit is already scarry, but with the necklace it's basically 260%(375%) ad-ratio on that, which is massive.

Onkel Malte2 votes

I played MF in a PBE game (don't worry I was playing ADC)

On a full Off-Tank build he does 1300 damage with his R-Crit and around 700 damage with his Q (already migitated by Armor).

He's just as toxic as he was before the update even though he's unlikely to go Tank now, he has not much to no counterplay at all. Not even Standing in my base could hold him off he just walked through 2 Towers and killed me.

Keti2 votes

Pretty sure the best build will be ad bruiser. It's very easy to stop full damage rengar post patch.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

why would you build anything other than a shiv. i'd personally build IE. ghostblade and rest ar pen ad items. and get that giant 1.5k damage crit

Doozku1 votes

I don't understand what you mean, why would you not build a shiv on the new rengar? Your build is almost the same as mine but in a different order.

Spoofghoul1 votes

yea gonna be so much fun arpen runes masteries, EoN item 3142 item 3147 item 3031 item 3036

Boom 1 shot a tank

brilliant rito just brilliant . . .

Pierce The Veal1 votes

If you're getting 1000 AD then racenous hydra is an extra 1000 damage added to your combo. Skunds bad right?

Chalizard1 votes

"He is op cause he can kill somebody with his combo in 1 sec" It is unballanced, they changed it so now he can kill somebody with his Q not with full combo.

ƒoes1 votes

People really undervalue the power of a guaranteed crit, as something like that has never been put onto a champion, aside from Fiora and Shaco

I believe Xin Zhao has a guaranteed crit on his W, and I remember when that was added, earlier this season IIRC. It was such an unnecessary addition and made Xin Zhao a complete pain in the ass to fight at all.

Doozku1 votes

You're right, I forgot about him. The difference is that XinZhao, like Fiora, is designed for elongated duels instead of burst damage, so in his case it is more like a three hit passive that they gave him. In general giving a champ a free crit as apposed to giving them bonus AD is better, as long as that champion doesn't build full armor pen and just crits for 2k damage.

Kingnewgameplus1 votes

No. The real difference is that XinZhao ,Fiora , and Shaco have negative crit modifiers which makes it less than 200%, until they rank their abilities.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I understand that IE is a better buy, simply for AD + 50% more crit damage, but would you do the math for item 3087? I just want to know how much damage the proc would deal with the guaranteed crit.

Kyloz1 votes

Going to ruin my favorite champion because Riot still hasn't fixed the fact that you can build a "bruiser" build and do tons of damage anyway.

ReZisT Lust1 votes

i always built rengar as critwise so i wont see too much of a difference lol

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