Riot needs to communicate more with Champion Mains when it comes to big Reworks, Nerfs, or Buffs

Doozku··201 votes·9,248 views

https://i.redd.it/f17x48kmr91z.jpg (don't take this meme too seriously, I'm sure they listen sometimes : ^))

As of right now, there seems to be a severe lack of communication between Riot and the communities of champions that they deal with. It started back with Karma, when Riot reworked her and later removed many of the parts of her kit that made her unique and fun. Karma mains have been complaining about this since forever. Even today, several **YEARS ** after the Karma rework came out, Karma mains are still complaining about it. And the only response they've ever gotten from Riot is "She's not a big problem right now, we have bigger problems on our radar. We'll get to her 'eventually.'" And that's it. Karma mains have been waiting for years for any kind of change and they've gotten nothing at all. Same thing with Malzahar, same thing with Zyra, same thing with Rengar, same thing with LB, same thing with Shaco, same thing with Fizz, same thing with Akali. And nowadays with the changes to Rammus, Aatrox, Kindred, etc. Sure, I'm not saying that the mains are always right, but sometimes they make great suggestions and requests to Riot, and get ignored, or worse (you Rengar mains know what I'm talking about).

And now with the Rumble changes, Rumble mains are freaking out about these massive nerfs and asking for some communication with Riot, and our lord Rito has been completely silent about it. We know that there are more changes coming to Rumble in the near future, but Riot could at least be more clear on this matter and tell Rumble mains that the changes are incomplete. They should have told Rumble mains the problems with his kit, as current. That his uninteractive Q spam to push lane isn't very fun to play against, and is breaking the champ, and then they should ask Rumble mains what other parts of his kit that they enjoy greatly, or parts of his kit that leave more to be desired and try to put more power into those areas (if its appropriate, maybe he doesn't need a shitload of damage put into his ult.) Its definitely a hassle, and some communities are a pain to deal with, but for every post saying "give me back old fiora rito or i quit, you guys are the worst company worse than ea or ubisoft at least they listen," there's going to be a constructive post by someone who is actually intelligent and cares about not only their main but also the health of the game.

TL;DR: Riot needs to communicate with communities more about reworks, changes, and big nerfs for champions and they should get rid of the "we are always right," attitude. If the suggestions that the mains give don't work, they can always pull a democratic party Yasuo main and blame it on someone else : ^)

207 Comments

IxtaliKing59 votes

The thing is with Karma, I get that some people liked the rework, I did too up until Rickless updated her. But seriously, how can we really be content with a rework that didn't even release with a full suite of animations? No shield animation, no haste animation, no twin dragons etc. Even the design of her concept art looked more compelling and Karma-like than what we got. To make it worse, the shield animation and the twin dragons are in the game files just sitting there, why? Can't find a Riot answer to this anywhere.

Taking into consideration that she was the 1st rework and that Riot didn't have dedicated teams for reworks back then, there should have been some kind of follow up. Riot should be held to a better standard than that. I hope the mains of all champs speak up loud and clear when Riot starts tinkering with them, because reworks like Shen Leblanc Malzahar Rengar Mordekaiser are not what Karma died for.

Karma should have been a lesson learned and never repeated, and that lesson is communication. Any rework or gameplay update that mains have limited to no input in, will likely be a failure.

Heckin Support21 votes

{quoted} To make it worse, the shield animation and the twin dragons are in the game files just sitting there, why? Can't find a Riot answer to this anywhere.

Karma is just one of the few champions that have massive potential that will probably never be fully reached.

IxtaliKing9 votes

And I've come to accept that she'll probably never even reach a fraction of this potential, because she doesn't inspire (lel) any of the designers at Riot. They don't care about her, actions speak louder than words.

Doozku14 votes

Are the animations really in the files of the game? For real? That's ridiculous, why wouldn't they just add them in?

IxtaliKing22 votes

Yep, we could ask them... but there's about a 99.9% chance they'll ignore the question and start talking about Ryze.

Doozku1 votes

tbh he needs another rework

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol yeah I agree, and it's a shame.

Faceroll Tactics2 votes

Tbh he should get galio, sion, and poppy treatment because a machine gun mage with point and click cc will never be healthy in a game like this.

Or just kill him like Gangplank in the burning tides, except this time, he doesn't come back to life

IxtaliKing1 votes

I don't know much about Ryze so I can't really speak on what he needs. But, what I will say is that whatever is wrong with Ryze is probably something that has remained throughout all his reworks. Something core to him...

Faceroll Tactics4 votes

I believe it's something that has always been there, and is slowly being phased out of most champions (Taric being a recent example)

Point and click cc.

Elikain2 votes

Mordekaiser's update came at a time where Riot was building a team of people for champion updates and learning how to properly understand what a champion needs for an update. I have to tell people that they're not allowed to use Mordekaiser as a bargaining chip in arguments like "you're not allowed to do this because you're repeating Mordekaiser's bla bla bla".

Riot did say that Mordekaiser needs a full VGU and that he's on the list but he's not on the "soon" list yet.

IxtaliKing7 votes

That's true, and for the class updates Mordekaiser and Skarner served as sacrifices much in the same way Karma did for VGUs. My point stands though, if the communication then was as good as it is today, neither of them would have ended up the way they did. At least we can see from Morde and Skarner Riot learned that it's a bad idea to rework champs who need full VGUs in class updates.

Elikain2 votes

I think that Riot is doing a fine job at communicating with us. Perhaps there's still room for improvement (as there always is) but Riot can't take every feedback into consideration, even if they do read a lot of it. There's this thing where too much transparency and community involvement becomes a bad thing.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Yeah they have definitely come a long way, and I'd say they're probably one of the best Devs when it comes to communicating with players. But as you said there is room for improvement. There definitely has to be a balance when it comes to transparency, I agree. But I think when it comes to already existing champs that need changes, they could talk players through the direction they want to take, before they take it. Allow the direction to stand up to scrutiny.

Velzard of Koz27 votes

When they do reworks, they do communicate with experienced mains of such champs, as far as I know.

Doozku6 votes

When the Sejuani rework hit PBE, there was a post asking for testers and mains to give feedback on Sej. She was really weak then, and the feedback is what caused her to be overtuned on launch. Zac and Mao had no such threads, despite several mains saying that Zac's ultimate was weak and his entire kit lacked damage and cc. Guess what, once Zac launched, his ultimate was weak and his entire kit lacked damage. Though everyone was saying that Maokai's ult was really weak and I disagree with that, some things do infact take some time for testing.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

Zac's ultimate was weak and his entire kit lacked damage and cc.

was a good joke. New zac cc lacking

Doozku3 votes

Yes, because they buffed the knockup on his E.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

no even without that, his Q spell is insane. Just most of the board didn't see the potential of this spell

Doozku8 votes

Yes, that's why he had a 40% winrate.

ModKnightsKemplar29 votes

This.

It's not a great idea to take the advice of many mains who post on the boards a lot. It just isn't. Many of them don't understand what good design looks like. When Riot designs a champ, they aren't JUST designing it for the mains, or even for the people playing it. They're also designing it for the people who play WITH it, or AGAINST it.

They have done a GREAT job designing and balancing champs. If they didn't, many of us wouldn't be here. There's plenty of competition out there in the MOBA genre, and Riot is top-dog for a reason.

Just because they aren't taking the advice of reddit or boards doesn't mean they aren't listening. And even if they weren't listening, they would usually do better than the communities ideas, anyway.

IxtaliKing23 votes

I agree. But I do believe when it comes to things like deciding on a champ's identity and what mains like about a champion, there should be a broader discussion. Riot is more than capable of facilitating this kind of discussion. This way, if Riot works based off that feedback, anyone who isn't happy with it can see they were out voted and can't blame Riot for it.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I think the community is mature enough for to have this kind of dialogue.

ModKnightsKemplar7 votes

I'm honestly not sure. It's possible that a vote would help, but you couldn't reasonably limit that to mains of the champion, right? That's sort of the problem. Many people in the game might think Zyra just fits better in the support position, but I have seen MANY posts from Zyra mains that just hate that. They want Zyra mid, and I understand why. It's just really hard to balance for both.

If it comes to a vote on something like that, is anyone allowed to vote? Is it fair for champ mains to get outvoted by the greater population who just hate their champ being a viable carry? Ultimately, I think Riot does a pretty good job of looking at feedback. No one is perfect, but I think Riot is one of the best companies out there when it comes to that, tbh.

Salson6 votes

Except you can't let everyone participate. Giving ideas for different skills is fine, but low elo players really suck with numbers balance.

Hell I'm gold and people report you if you die to Morde cause "he is gutted".

MagikarpIsBoss4 votes

Morde isnt even that terrible too. Ive seen him do some work in lots of games.

Pierce The Veal7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ugRJTtTn,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-06-03T21:11:25.715+0000)

When they do reworks, they do communicate with experienced mains of such champs, as far as I know.

Prime example being RicklessAbandon with the Akali, Leblanc, and Rengar reworks.

He coordinated sooooo well with chanpion mains.

"Nice meme"

Doozku3 votes

Not defending him, but the Nice Meme guy wasn't him. One of the playtesters said that I think.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

and the one saying this wasn't only saying this.

Valor Bot20 votes

I think the main issue is that Riot doesn't communicate with us about plans to push a champion in a certain direction until they've already locked in that direction. Case in point, a lot of us Quinn mains weren't happy with Riot making her "the roaming marksman," but by the time they asked for our feedback it was already too late to disagree with this goal because they had already decided on it as a team, and would only make changes to suit that decision.

TL;DR Riot do communicate, but oftentimes too late. I wish they'd talk to us about possible rework directions and goals before they decide upon them, that way we can dicuss what we think works and what we think doesn't work.

IGotScuttleCrabs14 votes

Glad to see someone bring Quinn AND VALOR up. They were a duo before they decided to turn Valor into a taxi. And they didn't bring her changes up until textures and animations were already completed so the decision was already made

SwiftKitten8812 votes

not ganna lie, i haven't seen that picture.. and its pretty damn funny

ModCaptainMårvelous10 votes

Actually, I disagree.

Now, I'm not saying they should utterly ignore the mains. Far from it, they should absolutely listen. But the "we're always right" mentality is a two way road, even if the mains lack the actual tools to change things. Mains, like anyone else, are biased when it comes to their favorite champions. You might say you're not but the fact is that you are. Everyone is guilty of it, even if they're not outright about it. Hell, Vi is my most played character and I was against the MS nerfs she got even when the rest of the community was for them. Right or wrong, I was biased against my main being nerfed in a way I saw as unjust.

An issue with mains is that they know the ins and outs of their champion and know everything. The flaws, the builds, the match-ups, everything. This gives them a greatly skewed view on the champion. They only really see a champion from that position of "I have 100k hours on my champion, I know what is best and worst about them and what should be changed". But they usually do not account for the new player. The player who wants to learn the champion. More over, they don't account for what COULD be with their champion.

Take the Poppy/Sion reworks. While Riot did listen to the community as best they could, do you know that a few mains said they were utterly quitting these champions because they hated the way they were changed? Taking a more recent example, let's think Rengar: A champion who Riot tried to keep as an assassin yet found that he couldn't exist as an assassin with his current kit...yet they likely cannot change his kit because it would "ruin Rengar's identity" to his mains.

But perhaps most damning of all is that mains often refuse to see flaws their champions have. They're not concerned with their champion being in a healthy state, they're concerned about their champion being in a powerful state. (But not so powerful they're permabanned) They're also concerned about how a champion SHOULD be played. Shaco was strong with a bruiser/AP build yet Shaco mains I've spoken to said "I refuse to acknowledge his win rate. Shaco has to have the right build".

Mains are worth listening to, yes, but the sad fact is that mains need some degree of restraint. Otherwise champions who need changes or reworks aren't going to get them. If the first critique of any change is "Revert it", that's not particularly helpful. Reversion should be the absolute final nuclear/panic button, not the day 1 kneejerk reaction.

subhuman team XD9 votes

RIP Rengar 2012-2016 you made me have the greatest times of my life , thank you [zombie-nunu-tears]

La Bello8 votes

Speaking of rework rants Shen really made me sad

he was one of my first tank characters that I really loved. As time went on his kit aged really badly and he became a snoozefest to play compared to all the newer and newfangled champions. Imagine my surprise when his rework STILL kept him a snoozefest AND they balanced him around LCS/Challenger too boot. Like I was really wondering who was behind that Rework.

Who got rid of his double katana's and gave him that lame mini-dagger? You added the ability to "dodge" but he doesn't actually dodge. He has no animation for his W he just nullifys projectiles like a windwall or something. I mean how hard would it have been to just rig up an animation where whenever something is "dodged" it shows him deflecting or parrying something? at the LEAST have him hold his sword in front of him to block or something like Varian in HoTS so its very clear how he is defending himself. I guess Shen was supposed to be really strong against auto dependent teams but I mean 1.5 seconds is a hilariously small window....

Next If his ultimate is SOOOO hard to balance WHY KEEP IT? I mean half of the playerbase can hardly utilize it effectively because it requires ingame omniscience .

Sure its Shens most powerful ability but that doesn't mean your not allowed to Revamp it right?

the spirit sword mechanic felt AWFUL and tacked on. Like did nobody in testing realize how completely superfluous it was and that the entire kit could work 100% fine without? Its just tacked on to give the illusion of "mastery" and "depth". Taunt felt even harder to land due to various changes to it and theres almost no way you can use it aggressively as a gapcloser without having to burn flash too in order to land it. Shen is this really immobile tank in fights who really just walks at you after burning his dash but his redeeming qualities are next to nil besides his ultimate.

In terms of rework failures I think this is numero uno for me personally. I mean they visual wise they just added a bunch of new garbage nobody really asked for and gameplay wise all they really solved was his obnoxious Q poke. Every now and then when Riot talks about reworks IIRC they said that Shens rework had plateauing interest where a majority of players did not care nor did his play rate really increase. Is that not a sign of a flawed rework? I mean he didnt even get a voice update.... /rant

Bouncemaster Zac8 votes

Rework Zac for no reason. He comes out utterly useless and much less fun. "Fix" it by overbuffing his Q so hard that that one spell spikes his WR from "useless" to "freelo." Great fucking rework guys. Not only do I not get to play him now since he's perma-ban; when I do get to play him it isn't fun or satisfying anymore. Not a single word of communiction before hand. Just "this is happening, deal with it."

AlienPrimate6 votes

I just want to know why they deleted Galio. The new thing called Galio is not Galio. They aren't even close to being the same champion. Saying the new "Galio" and old one are the same champion is like saying that Rammus and Malphite are the same champion. The only thing he kept was his scaling from magic resist and an AoE taunt.

Old Q - hard hitting aoe skill shot with high burst and a decent slow (closest ability to it is Heimerdinger's grenade) New Q - slow moving skill shot that does DoT (Twitch W, Urgot E?)

Old W - strongest self heal in the game with good boost to defenses for either himself or an ally (no other ability like it in the game) New W - AoE taunt with a fairly useless magic shield (Shen E?)

Old E - linear skill shot that gives allies a strong speed buff when moving with it (closest thing is Jayce's get, but still very unique) New E - dive forward and knock up an enemy (Vi Q, Sejuani Q?)

Old R - Large AoE taunt that did more damage the more he gets hit (one of a kind ability) New R - Dash to a target ally giving them some damage reduction (Shen R swapping some range for a knockup?)

The only thing that even resembles his old kit is his W being an AoE taunt. Even if they had released his rework as a new champion, no one would have said a thing about him being similar to Galio. I'm fine with reworks when the champion actually stays the same champion like the Aatrox and Swain reworks, but completely deleting something just because not many people play them is just stupid. Some past examples are Poppy, Sion, Galio, and Yorick. I actually know of a former Poppy one trick who was Diamond 1 and challenger in previous seasons. Poppy was reworked and he fell from Challenger Master all the way to Gold and then quit playing entirely. Reworking a champion shouldn't cause a person who is probably the best person in the world at playing them to fall to mid tier ranking in a single update.

An Enemy Sutando16 votes

All the points you made are inconsistent with what's actually happening and are obviously blinded by nostalgia.

AlienPrimate5 votes

What happened was people didn't want to play Galio because they couldn't figure out how to manage his mana. His play rate dropped to around 0.7%. Riot said nobody will play this champion so let's just delete him. One of my problems with some of the reworks is that champions who have been perfectly balanced for 3+ seasons without a single change made to them suddenly need to be reworked just to create more balance problems. The only things they changed since Galio's release were reduced the AP scaling on his Q shortly after release, make it so tenacity doesn't affect his ult, and reduced the mana cost of his E by a small amount. If that is the only changes needed to keep him in a balanced spot since his creation, why did they have any issue with him other than his unpopularity?

Divewing10 votes

Because he WASN'T balanced.

All of these champions were intentionally kept weak or ignored so they were played as little as possible, because as soon as they were "balanced", they were broken.

Galios shield was stupid, its a straight up ball of stats with no counterplay to it at all, his Q and E were gimmicky, and the only worthwhile thing about him was his AoE taunt, which was so damned reliant on flash, it was pathetic.

The problem with binary champions is that they are either strong, or weak, there is not "golden-ratio" in between magic state. So they get reworked.

AlienPrimate1 votes

You say he was kept weak but Galio had a steady 51-52% win rate since the mage item rework. He was strong when in the right hands and weak for people who know nothing about mana management. He was countered hard by grievous wounds and high physical damage. For him to survive against heavy physical damage he had to sacrifice some damage. Against any balanced team, Galio was balanced. Against an AD heavy team he was weak. Against an AP heavy team he was strong. This can be said about practically any champion though. If the enemy has X, champion A is weak. If the enemy team has y, champion B is weak.

Divewing10 votes

Exactly. A champion with a tiny playrate played mostly by dedicated mains only had a winrate around 50%.

And furthering the point, yes, he was useless vs ad comps and broken vs aps.

Galio was simply FAR too binary.

Azir is weak to poke, but he still has ways to play around it. Galio was weak to ad, and his only option to counter it was stack armour and be EVEN MORE of an ult-bot, or get uber fed to the point where it's "full tank soraka afking for the first 5 seconds of a fight and still win" syndrome.

Like Sutando said before me, you are blinded by nostalgia, and think that because he WASN'T BROKEN, that means he was BALANCED. That's not unfortunately how it works.

New Tool Album5 votes

karma is really good though

Automated Riven26 votes

Karma may be good. But that doesn't change how shit of a rework it was. They took away everything that made her unique and turned her into a generic caster.

An Enemy Sutando20 votes

Karma is good because she's overtuned, not because her kit is well-designed.

LICENSED HOOKER3 votes

Like how they're about to "buff" singed but any singed main will tell you that more damage isnt what singed needs, he needs CC or some form of mobility to compete with every other cancer top laner

Meep Man17 votes

But you don't play Singed to interact with people dude, you play him to screw with people. His Passive and W need changes though. His W just has reason to be leveled early due to how simple and weak it is compared to other options.

The changes that were on the PBE were pretty decent in my eyes, but were a little half baked in my eyes since I think they should also have had at least some W changes in there, which were not.

LICENSED HOOKER3 votes

he cant survive lane or at least be good enough to proxy, people realized that you dont need to follow him to kill him..

jama6551 votes

you... mentioned malz twice?

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