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I don't think anyone would consider removing Nidalee's Cougar Form in a potential rework...

Valor Bot··4 votes·1,300 views

http://i.imgur.com/3pSpYAe.jpg"

...even if she were suffering balance-wise because of it. Same goes for other champs like Shyvana. So why was this done to Quinn? Was there no way of making her a better Champion while also accounting for the cornerstone of her kit, which was her transform/swap with Valor?

I'm not saying Quinn's rework failed to make her strong. I'm just saying it went about empowering her and making her unique in the wrong ways. Sure, the nature of Nidalee's ultimate differs from Quinn's old one because it's a shapeshift you use to combo with rather than a 20-second steroid form, but the point still stands: Both ultimates are just as important to and characteristic of the Champions themselves, and I don't believe removing them for the sake of balance is at all in the spirit of preserving the integrity of said characters, especially when there are other ways of ensuring they're distinctly powerful.

I'm sure many Nidalee players out there would be quite upset if their Cougar Form were removed. After all, it's a spell that's been there from the very start for that character, is enjoyable, and fits her backstory, while also not being particularly unbalanceable. So, I just really want to know why Quinn’s transform wasn’t preserved in her rework, when Valor is supposed to be his own 'Champion', not just a spell effect in Quinn's kit.

17 Comments

SaltyKracka5 votes

Because it wasn't the centerpiece of her kit, and was actually kind of shit.

Blade of Justic4 votes

{quoted}

Because it wasn't the centerpiece of her kit, and was actually kind of shit.

Duality and working with Valor was not just core to her kit, it was core to her character.

And still, to this day, Riot still hasn't made a Tag-Team champ properly.

TheCeeJay3 votes

Incoming: "But Kindred!"

Oh, you mean Lamb (ft. Wolf) not Lamb & Wolf?

SaltyKracka2 votes

Working with Valor was core to her kit and theme, yes.

Her ult wasn't.

Valor Bot2 votes

There was a reason Quinn's pre-release name during her time on the PBE was actually "Quinn and Valor" (which, btw, was removed due to name length issues). He wasn't slated to be the simple particle effect he is now like Pix is to Lulu; he was supposed to be, in a sense, his own Champion, which is why he had his own Champion portrait pop up on the minimap during Tag Team, or whenever you scored a kill or assist under the effects of that ultimate.

That is what I argue was core to her kit and theme. No other Champion had that to offer.

SaltyKracka2 votes

And yet in the end it was merely a glorified transformation people would often pop to run in or run out.

Valor Bot2 votes

I wouldn't say that's what most people used it for, but even if that were true, it may have just been an indicator of Tag Team's need for slight tweaks to its functionality/usefulness/clarity. It doesn't warrant its total removal.

Blade of Justic3 votes

{quoted}

And yet in the end it was merely a glorified transformation people would often pop to run in or run out.

I always used Valor to dive in and F@#$ people up with.

He was very good at DPS after you widdle down your opponent's health with Quinn.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

except that when you look at both Quinn and Nid both of their transformations were extremely different. Quinn's transformation was more of a Shyvnna ult than anything else. Nid has access to her transformation at lvl 1 and her entire kit is designed around using both forms while Quinn's was just "you are now melee and your attacks have somewhat different properties for X amount of time" it didn't really do much for her as a whole as opposed to Nid or Jayce or Elise. Removing Valor was a stupid decision since they should have just made her into a regular transformation champion like those above but whatever i guess we have to deal with Valor being reduced from an actual partner to Quinn to nothing more than a tool

Valor Bot3 votes

Yeah; in a gameplay sense, the dynamics of Quinn's old ult and Nidalee's current one are very different, but thematically speaking, I think both are equally as important to their characters.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zPUEMyYI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-02-01T02:20:51.903+0000)

Yeah; in a gameplay sense, the dynamics of Quinn's old ult and Nidalee's current one are very different, but thematically speaking, I think both are equally as important to their characters.

and Riot gives no damns about that. If they did they wouldn't have made Valor a tool instead of the partner he was before. It is easier to remove Quinn's ult than it is to do it to any of the transformation champions due to how they behave gameplay wise. Am i happy that they reworked Quinn the way they did? no. Will that change Riot's view of the rework? doubtful

Hellpyre1 votes

I would argue that this is false equivalence. The two played not at all similarly.

Valor Bot2 votes

As stated in the main post, I agree that they don't play the same. I'm not comparing their play patterns; what I'm trying to say is that Quinn's old ult was just as significant to her kit as Nidalee's current ult is to hers.

Pawn of hearts1 votes

I play nidalee alot, at some point my name was " NidisMyLover" but since patch 4.14 right after the nidalee rework and the Billions OF NERFED she been throught I had it with her. I'm done with this champ. since wining a game is almost impossible w/e I don't care anymore.

the idea of removing the cougar form is perfect. I COMPLETLY agree got my upvoted +1

and also mind as well REMOVE her from the game, she not even fun to play anymore so it good thing that she will be remove from the game.

she is ALREADY dead so mind as well give her a funeral, and a nice Farwell.

p.s nidalee you will always be the sexiest pole dancer to me. love you.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

Nid's problems are that her kit just isn't good. No amount of reworks are going to make her a healthy champion if her core abilities remain intact. Her heal that grants AS is an old style ability that doesn't fit her kit and simply isn't good on her. Her spear after many nerfs still has too much power loaded into it. Other than triggering her hunter passive her traps are garbage. And her cougar abilities are mindless. Just spam everything. And despite every forced attempt to push her to the jungle, she is not a good jungler. Her kit is not well designed for it despite it fitting her theme. She will always be either OP or garbage in the jungle.

Best KhaZix Void1 votes

it was garbage and trading out ranged for melee on an AD champion sucks massive dick.

Valor Bot1 votes

Fighting as Valor was extremely profitable in certain situations due to the guaranteed blind you could get off on your target in melee range as well as the massive amounts of bonus MS and AS you gained in combat which made assassinating the enemy ADC/squishy a breeze.

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