@Riot, A Case for Valor

Valor Bot··91 votes·4,856 views

http://imgur.com/yJmwm4s

Recently, there’s been some discussion about Quinn and how her rework has left her feeling unsatisfying both to play as and play against. I wanted to continue that discussion here, and make a case for increasing Quinn’s current ult cooldown in favor of removing its clunky channel time and allowing Valor to fight as his own Champion on the Rift again. Here is my list of reasons on why I think this would be a good direction for Quinn and Valor, with both gameplay and thematic elements kept in mind.

Please be mindful of your comments and keep the discussion civil as well as objective.


http://imgur.com/PukYh0F

#1: Build paths. Essence Reaver is an item that is supposed to be an optimal choice for Quinn, but usually goes unnoticed in favor of tankier options. Bringing Valor back as a combat form on a cooldown would incentivize Quinn to build CDR items like Essence Reaver again in order to have more uptime as Valor.

#2: Counterplay. Valor returning as a combat form means Quinn players will feel encouraged to put themselves at very close range to fight—giving melee opponents in particular a better fighting chance when going up against Demacia's Wings, but also rewarding Quinn players who know when to play as Valor at just the right time.

#3: Less roams, more decision making. With these changes, Quinn does not have to stop being the best roaming marksman in the game; she can still be useful to her teammates with her high map mobility and pressure. However, assigning her ult a modest cooldown means that she'll have to plan her map movements a bit more carefully than she is currently required to. A higher cooldown on her ultimate also offers her opponents a bit more breathing room, because they'll have a window of opportunity where they can take advantage of the objectives she's left behind.

#4: Mechanical depth. Currently, Quinn's mechanics are extremely linear and predictable: she runs up to you and tries to get off as many passive procs in a row as she can before running away. While chaining Harrier marks can be fun, it can also feel both visually and mechanically bland and uninspired. Bringing Valor back into the fray means Quinn players can approach and participate in fights in different and meaningful ways, while also giving her a higher mastery curve: "Should I kite back and stay safe while dealing damage from a distance as Quinn, or should I risk it all for virtually guaranteed damage and insane movement speed and attack speed as Valor?”

#5: Theme. When Quinn first came out on the PBE, her name was not just Quinn, it was "Quinn and Valor." This was to indicate that Valor was just as much a part of the Champion as Quinn was, further established by little things in game such as Quinn's portrait changing to Valor's during her ultimate. Valor was never meant to be another simple pet, mount, or particle effect like Tibbers, Bristle, or Pix--he's an eagle who kills and fights and wants to have all the glory, so letting us play as him was vital because HE wants the spotlight. Just like Tibbers functioning as a walking sunfire cape feels bad, so too does it feel bad for Valor to be turned into a pair of glorified mobility boots.

Not only that, but their whole concept revolves around being a dynamic duo. Being able to play as both of them only makes sense.

#6: Novelty. Let's face it, no other Champion in the game besides Quinn allowed you to play as a badass murder-bird. (Sorry Swain and Anivia, but you're not really birds, are you?) If I remember correctly, a primary goal of the Marksman Update was to preserve what was cool and fun about the Champion. This was most definitely one of those things.


http://imgur.com/0K6mizv

Frequently Asked Questions

  • "A melee ult like Tag Team was bad on a squishy Champion like Quinn; therefore, it needed to go, and shouldn't come back."

Playing as Valor had its perks; namely, (1) your Q was nigh undodgeable, (2) you gained insane movement speed and attack speed, and (3) you had an execute. Knowing the right time to play as Quinn and the right time to play as Valor was what "separated the good players from the bad ones." Just like Nidalee and Elise players don't always have to fight in their melee forms, Quinn didn't have to either. And sure, Valor may have been a defenseless melee carry, but in the current version of League we live in, there are items that could make up for that (i.e. Maw and Sterak's). Alternatively, Riot could shift some of the power around in Quinn's kit to grant Valor some additional survivability (but in my view, this would be unnecessary).

As a side note, I am not asking for the execute on Skystrike back. I think the advantages that come with playing as Valor are fine enough, though that's ultimately a decision the design and balance teams would have to make.

  • "Realistically, how is a bird like Valor supposed to fight people and survive?"

I don't know about you, but I'd be afraid if a bird of Valor's size came at me trying to gouge my eyes out with fully armored talons. Not to mention it could easily dodge attacks since it would be airborne.

  • "But wait! When using Tag Team, why does Quinn disappear while Valor takes over? It makes no sense."

The idea behind Tag Team as an ultimate is that Quinn sends Valor to chase after fleeing prey she otherwise wouldn't be able to catch up to. Quinn disappearing from the battlefield may be a bit confusing visually, but she has to go somewhere to charge up that huge Skystrike move safely, no? Also, maybe she's watching his back from above like Valor does for her when she's on the field. In any case, not all abilities in League are going to make perfect sense. (See: Tahm Kench ulting on dry land.)

  • “It was unfair that Quinn’s ultimate gave her a get-out-of-jail-free card, though.”

Bit of a misconception here. While Quinn’s ultimate was certainly useful at helping her escape sticky situations--an intended strength of Quinn’s that was even mentioned in her Champion Spotlight--every R click was not always successful at it, particularly if, say, an enemy jungler went around to flank her and leave her without an escape path (Valor's movement speed would drop massively in combat). Not only that, but committing to Tag Team's use as an escape meant she’d have to wait a significant amount of time before she could call upon Valor again due to the long cooldown.

  • “Quinn just got a rework, she’s unlikely to get a set of changes like this for a long time."

That’s understandable. This wouldn’t really be an update of the preseason Marksmen Update’s scale though, more along the lines of something that could be contained within a set of experimental changes like Sona is currently getting.

  • _"Wouldn't it be better if they allowed Quinn to switch freely with Valor like Jayce and Nidalee do in their forms?" _

I'm not opposed to this idea, I think it would be cool and more thematically appropriate than what we have now. It's something that's been considered by Riot before, but would require a larger update, as there would definitely need to be some significant changes made to her abilities, movement speed effects from her ultimate, etc.


http://i.imgur.com/F031rTx.jpg

If nothing else, Riot, please allow us to play as Valor again during Behind Enemy Lines. It wouldn't fix Quinn’s current issues, but at the very least, it would give us back some of the thrill and excitement of playing as a swift eagle again.

Thanks for reading if you got this far.

58 Comments

Lady Hammerlock27 votes

I loved old quinn way better then the new one,shame your post hasn't gotten many views

Why i liked old quinn? -you can split push and counter split push very very well -You counter and tilted vayne mains everyday -Quite unpredictable,at one moment she's like every other adc dealing consistent dmg then all of the sudden she becomes a bursty assassin -Valor was anti-adc,thanks to the blind most adcs have difficulty dealing with quinn -Blind is much healthier then nearsight -She had her clear dynamic duo theme but now most of its just quinn -You had build variety,you could build bruiser like,adapt your adc items to be more assassin oriented or focus more on your ADC portion of your kit

Valor Bot3 votes

To be fair, I still think current Quinn is very strong at split pushing, but it's by virtue of her high map mobility rather than the huge attack speed steroid she'd gain from her old W passive as Valor, which was good for tower shredding.

I find she's still able to succeed with a wide variety of build paths too, but the way her new Harrier functions means she may be a bit discouraged when going for non-crit items.

Apart from this, I agree with the rest of your post. Riot removed Quinn's old blind because they thought it gave her a disproportionate advantage against melee Champions, and they were looking to shift her away from top lane to mid, but top is still her most common position and it probably will be for a long time simply because her kit is so good at dealing with melees (easy harass with Harrier, dash/self-peel with E that gives you even more harass, etc.)

I also think it's false to claim that Quinn's old blind was only useful in melee matchups; I know this isn't the argument Riot was trying to make, but given the way blinds currently function, I would say she'd be quite strong against certain ranged characters too, like TF (gold card), Teemo (poison) and Jayce (W)--not to mention she'd function better as a duo lane AD carry because she could negate other CC on-hit effects typically found on supports like Leona and Blitzcrank.

In any case, Nearsight can be just as strong against melee Champions as her old blind if used correctly, so the advantage still exists nonetheless.

Thanks for your thoughts, I think you summed up one of the big reasons why old Quinn was so cool and unique quite nicely: "Quite unpredictable, at one moment she's like every other adc dealing consistent dmg then all of the sudden she becomes a bursty assassin."

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2QERKmEQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-05-04T18:54:44.416+0000)

To be fair, I still think current Quinn is very strong at split pushing, but it's by virtue of her high map mobility rather than the huge attack speed steroid she'd gain from her old W passive as Valor, which was good for tower shredding.

I find she's still able to succeed with a wide variety of build paths too, but the way her new Harrier functions means she may be a bit discouraged when going for non-crit items.

Apart from this, I agree with the rest of your post. Riot removed Quinn's old blind because they thought it gave her a disproportionate advantage against melee Champions, and they were looking to shift her away from top lane to mid, but top is still her most common position and it probably will be for a long time simply because her kit is so good at dealing with melees (easy harass with Harrier, dash/self-peel with E that gives you even more harass, etc.)

I also think it's false to claim that Quinn's old blind was only useful in melee matchups; I know this isn't the argument Riot was trying to make, but given the way blinds currently function, I would say she'd be quite strong against certain ranged characters too, like TF (gold card), Teemo (poison) and Jayce (W)--not to mention she'd function better as a duo lane AD carry because she could negate certain on-hit CC effects typically found on supports like Leona and Blitzcrank.

In any case, Nearsight can be just as strong against melee Champions as her old blind if used correctly, so the advantage still exists nonetheless.

Thanks for your thoughts, I think you summed up one of the big reasons why old Quinn was so cool and unique quite nicely: "Quite unpredictable, at one moment she's like every other adc dealing consistent dmg then all of the sudden she becomes a bursty assassin."

I wasn't saying nearsight was worse then blind,in terms of game health/how toxic a skill is Blinds are generally healthier and less toxic then nearsight because atleast you know where your going when your blind(ironic) but its much harder to manoeuvre with nearsight

Dunkrius2g3 votes

-You counter and tilted vayne mains everyday

The more bigger reason why old quinn needs to come back.

Lady Hammerlock3 votes

{quoted}

The more bigger reason why old quinn needs to come back.

One game there was a vayne and i was quinn,she got caught in my W vision then she instantly typed in chat "fuck"

Supreme Vic12 votes

Return of True Quinn? I'm all in. BRING BACK QUINN Quinn

ferretbutler10 votes

It's criminal how under discussed your thread is. Especially with how much effort went into this post. I have no experience on Quinn, but have an upvote in hopes of more visibility.

Valor Bot2 votes

Thanks!

Helmight8 votes

Disclaimer: I am not a Quinn main and have not spent much time playing the champion.

I actually really enjoyed this post and sympathize with the desire to have Valor return. I think the champion was a lot more interesting when they were a tag-teaming duo and not just Quinn using Valor as a glorified taxi service. Quinn and Valor lost a lot of their uniqueness with the rework, and I'd love to see them return to their old ways.

I feel as though Quinn should receive the Nidalee treatment - give her access to Tag Team on a moderate cooldown, but emphasize switching between modes to maximize damage.

YGGNPotbWr2 votes

I really hope Riot listens to its community on this one.

Zedex7 votes

Riot certainly didn't stay true to their original goals of making Quinn more fun to play against. They made her so much more oppressive to play against as a melee, and now she has insane roaming. She's hardly any more fun to play, the new ultimate feels so much like a chore. Or a forced roam mechanic to band-aid her.

Used to love playing the old Quinn. Top lane was the lane I was more comfortable in, probably because it was so easy. Now its even easier. Idk if shes a viable bot laner anymore either. She used to be a nice pseudo assassin-marksmen.

ABlueQuaker5 votes

I used to main Quinn. I played her once post-rework. Cried. Haven't player her since.

AIIan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=FA Quaker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2QERKmEQ,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2016-05-05T13:28:50.811+0000)

I used to main Quinn. I played her once post-rework. Cried. Haven't player her since.

http://img04.deviantart.net/3ce6/i/2013/029/1/0/lie_down__try_not_to_cry__cry_a_lot_combo_by_badflippy-d5t596e.jpg

AIIan4 votes

I used to be a Quinn main, but they dropped the ball hard on this rework with the pure supression of Valor, and I lost any interest in them. Funny how a "clunky kit" like Rioters said, worked way better for me than the new one.

Anyway, I'm 100% behind you. Quinn core-theme, both in lore and gameplay, was the duality of the champion. It would be like reworking Nidalee in a cougar-less state, or Elise not being able to transform into a spider, or Swain with a completely new ultimate - it makes no sense. Sadly, the only reaction I got was "shut up - or more exactly, keep talking why I'm juste pretending to take good note - and deal with it".

The biggest letdown in all of LoL history for me so far.

Eevolicious4 votes

Sometimes I feel Rito has something personal against me... or I have the tendency for playing low play rate champs and eventually I will get fucked up.

The 6.9 patch killed my favorite champion since season one, which is Anivia. And this just takes me back to the point where they killed old Quinn. I loved everything about her old playstyle. She was a squishy target that needed 300% more "skill" to play than most of the champs nowadays, and when you got it right it would make you feel AMAZING. The ult plays were also crazy nice - waiting for the low hp target go near the tower to recall, wait a few secs - ult - kill. ♥ Was there anything better?

New Quinn feels totally one dimensional. She's a very obvious and overpowered early-mid game. Everything about her just screams NOOB. E-Auto-Q-Auto, there's no fun gameplay anymore, skill cap lowered drastically and her ult... please. I don't want a taxi bird, I want to BE the bird. That's what we got when they introduced the character and just took it away.

I hope this finds a way through Rito designers and bring back some Quinn gameplay. I haven't seen a Quinn ingame lately, she's already pretty much forgotten and underplayed. I hate everything they did to her.

It's just a sad season to play League of Legends. I'm sad.

Valor Bot1 votes

I just finished watching a League video on Youtube about a game design concept known as 'viscerality' -- essentially, how good something feels to play or use in game, especially due to the visual and/or audial feedback it provides.

In terms of Quinn, I'd agree with you and say that Tag Team was extremely fulfilling in this regard. Valor's attacks and abilities were just so crisp and satisfying both to watch and listen to, and finishing someone off with Skystrike was like icing on the cake. For those who play Zed, I'd say it's akin to the euphoria of hearing someone get blown up by that final "pop" from your ult. So great.

SSJTribe3 votes

I really loved killing a champion and having Valor's portrait show up rather than Quinn's. I still feel like if you deal the killing blow with skystrike it should show Valor's portrait.

Only Play Darius3 votes

Skystrike is Quinn firing a wave of arrows.

Xaenos3 votes

Yeah I honestly gotta agree here. While my mastery with quinn is the highest of all my champions, i think it was only the first few months no one knew how to deal with her easily. Now it feels like she doesnt have much of an impact anymore. If she does get another rework, hopefully its for the better.

TheGoddessBell3 votes

Personally I just think Riot hasn't really hit the mark when making Duality champions. Quinn and Valor being the first and Kindred being the second, it just hasn't really worked out well. I always looked at the champions as just Quinn and Kindred I do in fact call her as the champion mainly focuses on the Lamb part.

I don't really think it works in the ideations they've taken with them. I could see it working more so in a form swap fashion (i.e Nidalee, Elise) where you play one with a set of QWE and then hit R and become the other with a new QWE.

Çhåryzård3 votes

Tbh the only thing that bothers me about new Quinn is that a bird of that size would not be strong enough to hold a human being

Quepha3 votes

I don't think changing that majorly iconic part of Quinn was a good thing for her players But now she has a new iconic thing that her players love about her, so it would also be wrong to change it again Two wrongs don't make a right, so just keep Quinn as the roaming adc and tell the people that liked turning into a bird that they don't have a choice other than being sad, playing Jayce for a similar playstyle, or playing Anivia if they just like birds.

Valor Bot3 votes

{quoted} I don't think changing that majorly iconic part of Quinn was a good thing for her players But now she has a new iconic thing that her players love about her, so it would also be wrong to change it again Two wrongs don't make a right, so just keep Quinn as the roaming adc

Adding a moderate cooldown to Quinn's ultimate doesn't take away her identity as the roaming marksman. With this change, she would still be the best at roaming, but it would also free up some of her power budget (which her current ultimate takes up a lot of) to allow her to swap with and play as Valor again.

I believe there's a way to ensure Valor gets to be half of the Champion again while preserving Quinn's niche as the roaming marksman. Keep in mind Quinn was already very good at roaming before the rework, it was just gated behind an extremely long cooldown, so she couldn't use it as often as she currently can. There's a middle ground/sweet spot there to be found, I think.

GhastlyGhoulMan3 votes

I'm going to be the one to share what is probably an unpopular opinion and say that I honestly prefer new Quinn over old Quinn. Although I do see where you're coming from and wouldn't mind seeing a compromise for both.

PikaCHU5673 votes

"Val's stealing all the glory again." Quinn

Aria Storm3 votes

I mained Quinn ADC before her rework, I had about an 80% winrate with her. I had games that I still won for my team even if I completely failed lane for whatever reason. I was appaled by the change of her ult, and I'm still miffed by it. I like most of her other changes, if they are kept and she gets her old ult back (and maybe a toggleable like Nid/Jayce instead of a long CD) I'd go back to maining her again. I would also revert her blind back to how it was but keep it as proccing Harrier,

If she gets Valor back she may need some sort of numbers nerf but I would take them if I can just play the champion I actually bought again and not the fake she is now :(

junglerboy163 votes

I think the key difference between having Quinn and Valor being able to switch is that instead of two radically different stances (e.g. long range poke utility mage/high mobility nuking assassin for Nidalee), they would rather be different ways to play very similar champions. Quit would offer more utility and safety, and Valor would offer more roaming, chasing and kill power. They'd both still have damage, near-sight, attack speed, a dash, etc.

I wish they'd reimagine her old ult and figure out a way to make it work for her and valor again, because I can't stand how Valor got demoted from being a cool alternate character where Riot keeps pushing secondary character incorporation (i.e. Tibbers is now a real pet instead of a nuke and forget AI)

TenshouSNK3 votes

"Tag Team" was so lore friendly. I think the name should be brought back if Valor makes a return.

jade harley BARK3 votes

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I'm really not sure why her ult change went through, because on the PBE everyone who was testing her was a Quinn main (with a few exceptions, but most of those exceptions also disagreed with the change) and strongly disagreed with this ult. We were basically told that it was going to go through because riot believed it was the best choice but...guess our feedback was irrelevant? Regardless, I don't think riot will ever change her :/ They've given her the exact niche they want, and the complaints are still basically the same (she's oppressive, not fun to play against, a split pusher, etc). It's really unfortunate, but probably the truth.

Placentas3 votes

Dude, thank you so much for this post! You really summed up all my thoughts on the rework and old Quinn. I miss Tag Teaming into Valor so much! There was no reason to remove Valor from the game. And I definitely agree, reverting the change would make Quinn more thematically sound.

Raiku Kawisa2 votes

Shyvana doesn't have to fight in melee form? I'm going to assume you mean dragon form because both of Shyvana's forms are melee.

Valor Bot2 votes

D'oh, this was an error on my part. Thanks, I've made the correction.

CHOPSTICKUHH2 votes

Bump until we get old Quinn back

Nicèst2 votes

Keep all her target udates for Q and E and give her R back. All these mages getting buffed to oblivion while the AD ones get nerfed Instead of changing the meta every season with buffs and nerfs How about we add items that allow the players to change the meta themselves. The reason everyone says its not fn anymore is because nothing really takes skill anymore. Its all redetermined by who got buffed or nerfed and who stronger in certain seasons forcing those who ONLY care about winning to gain rewards. I dont like playing any and every champion. I like to take in the ones I do like and embrace their lore and design to be the strongest of their kind. I dont like every champion that releases.

Long story short, its not really based on skill anymore these days. Everyone wants to main broken champions because they win more.

We Need Balance!!!!!

YGGNPotbWr2 votes

Nearly every person who played Quinn before the rework liked the old Quinn ultimate more, from what Ive seen. It would seem the only people who like the new Quinn ult better than the old one are the people who barely played her before her rework, and didnt know how to use it optimally.

Árchangel Avacyn2 votes

Okay so, sorry you had to come find me for me to see this, I've not really been paying attention to League as of late, but I'll get to that later.

So, one of the biggest issues Quinn has faced during her rework is that Riot didn't understand what made her fun and strong to the people who played her. This was obvious during the rework when Repertoir would ask us basic questions that were answered in the champion spotlight or by playing a few games as her, obviously I can't really fault Riot for not understanding her going into it but I think this is actually a much greater problem facing these reworks and that I'd compare Quinn's update to Mordekaiser's. Okay so hear me out here: Mordekaiser, like Quinn, was an experiment in some different which resulted in a champion with an EXTREMELY binary playstyle who was completely busted after the update and frustrating as hell to play against while his dedicated playerbase was alienated, after several nerfs and some metashifts Mordekaiser has become irrelevant again and no longer sees competitive play. I could replace everything here with Quinn's name and it would be exactly the same, she's boring mechanically as she lost the biggest mechanical part of her kit with almost no compensation(nearsight helps a bit here), her dedicated playerbase was largely shafted and she was busted as all hell but after several nerfs is only relevant in soloQ and even then she's not exactly breaking any records.

One of the biggest failures, is truly how little effort Riot made to maintain absolutely anything that made Quinn, Quinn. Before the update for years several of us made several posts detailing exactly what makes Quinn appealing to us and how she worked: Harrier procs feeling nice and powerful, Playing as Valor, Vault in general, GO FOR THE EYES. In the initial update Quinn had only one of these things still: Vault. Harrier procs were so useless proccing them was a waste of time(this was sort of fixed a bit later but until 5.23 Harriers were still really underwhelming), Valor was gone, no blind. To his credit Repertoir worked with us during this time but only once the rework was proved to be a disaster, make no mistake if not for a huge amount of discussion between him and us Quinn's rework would probably have left her even less relevant than she was before. I'm pretty sure I was one of the people who's idea it was to add Nearsight to her Q, and as much as I understand how frustrating it is to be on the receiving end of it, it's completely necessary to her success as she just plain needs CC on her Q for her to function properly.

At the moment Quinn is one of the most bland and boring champions to play. I mean that, I played Quinn to Diamond back before the update and maintained my position even after but what made me want to play Quinn was because she was interesting and fun with several little tricks and cool things you could pull off. Now you basically fly up to someone and throw all your stuff at them and if they die awesome, if not you just fly away and try again another time, not only is that not really engaging to play but it's frustrating to play against. If you catch Quinn out she dies super hard and she melts to hard CC but in terms of ganking as long as Quinn owns a brain and doesn't waste Vault chances are you won't be able to counterattack, you'll either die or you'll be put behind while Quinn loses almost nothing for the privilege. Quinn is no stranger to being a roaming monster mind you, but before it was much more skill intensive and risky but also rewarding, if you didn't get anything from your ult that sucked really bad, same as it does for champion's like TF as the CD was so massive but if you did it right you came out ahead and it felt great. There's something to be said about this, having an ultimate that you can cast all the time(mana costs notwithstanding) makes said ult feel bad, you don't think about ulting as Quinn you just do it when you're going to move somewhere I've wasted ults as other champions because I just reflexively press R when I get to base because it's just so automatic that it ceases to feel like a skill and more like a glorified passive. I also firmly believe that with an ultimate with such high variance(as in if Quinn is strong it's busted and if Quinn is bad it's useless) can never be balanced on the kit it forces her to use, she has almost not mechanics to fall back on meaning apart from knowing how to roam there is no real skill floor to Quinn outside of a few Vault tricks she's just generically good or bad and I cannot ever see that changing with this kit.

The way I see it, Quinn without Valor is just not the same. They're not as fun and unique, they're certainly not as challenging to play, you don't get the same satisfaction from a good ult because there's almost no penalty for a bad one. This has killed my passion for League of Legends completely, I barely play the game any more and when I do I find myself playing Kayle just because I like angels. Something that playing Kayle has really hit home for me is how utterly atrocious the animation is on Quinn's ult, it doesn't look like Valor is carrying a human because he doesn't flap enough when moving slowly and sometimes the animation breaks. It's terrible, they just smashed together his flight animation and her run animation, that looked fine when Valor was just by himself but for this it just looks bad, it's lazy, especially when so many of the other champions in the same update got a bunch of new particles.

I'm sure that Riot probably considers this a successful rework, but I can't agree. Even if she gained a bit of popularity and saw some pro play that's not worth removing what made them appealing to play in the first place and seriously hurting their theme. I'm not hopeful we'll see another update any time soon, but just changing her ult to being just Valor would be a step in the right direction thematically.

TL;DR: I'm mad, Quinn isn't as fun, angry sounds.

Rockm Sockm2 votes

I'll upvote just to get get rid of this current incarnation off Quinn.

TenshouSNK2 votes

Bump for Valor.

dim2a1 votes

I love post-rework Quinn. Her build path is more diverse than most other marksmen, as is her role (one game I can be assassin, the other have adc-like position, third one emphasize split push in my build.. depending on what team needs). And channel on ulti means that some planning ahead/figuring out when you need to get out is needed if splitting or counterjungling. I am 100% fine with mechanically simple champion, I prefer mechanically simple, but strategically complicated/high skill ceiling champions.

I only played old quinn once or twice, so I can't speak about old one, but I'd be sad if new one was gone.

Valor Bot3 votes

The change I proposed would be perfect for players who enjoy switching between Marksman and Assassin-like playstyles, the only difference being that Quinn would function primarily as the Marksman and Valor as the Assassin (whereas currently, Quinn fills both roles).

Her item diversity wouldn't change overmuch, either--it would just make building CDR (and therefore, ER) a nicer option for those who want to play as Valor more frequently throughout a match.

In my view, Quinn doesn't need a channel on her ult to make her splitpushing fair. She's always going to need to plan ahead and place wards in the opposing jungle if she wants to avoid being flanked, because if she does get collapsed upon from two opposing sides, she'll almost always be left without an escape due to the drop of her MS in combat. If her in-combat MS were too strong as Valor, that could be tuned as well.

Either way, getting away from sticky situations is supposed to be one of Quinn's strengths, so it's not something she should feel particularly bad about.

As for your final point... I'm not a big fan of Champions with overly-complicated mechanics either, so I'm with you in that regard. But I do think the rework failed to preserve a good portion of her mechanical depth, making her almost too linear. Quinn and Valor had a lot of playmaking potential when they could switch between forms, while also not being overly complicated as they shared the same set of basic abilities. It allowed for more interesting ways to approach a fight or situation without making them excessively difficult to play. Although her new Q fulfills a bit of this, it doesn't really make up for all the cool and fun moments the duo were able to pull off before.

Thanks for your thoughts.

YGGNPotbWr1 votes

Riot cant deny it at this point, virtually everyone agrees with this post. If they ignore this it just shows that they really dont care what their player base thinks of their game.

LordGeovanni1 votes

might as well just release Valor as a separate champion

YGGNPotbWr1 votes

Bump up the football

YGGNPotbWr1 votes

Another thing that really bugs me is how ridiculously weak Quinn is right now compared to how she used to be. They absolutely nerfed the scaling on her passive so it just feels like a slightly empowered auto early. Losing lane to a nasus as quinn from level 2 should never happen.

Valor Bot1 votes

Just to be clear, I don't think Quinn is a weaker Champion after the update; in fact, I think her new kit makes her very strong. That doesn't mean her changes are totally appropriate for the character she's meant to be though, which is why I felt the urge to make this post.

As for the Nasus thing, I do think there's room for him to win early if Quinn messes up severely (i.e. fighting him in or around his minion wave, not kiting correctly, etc.) In cases like that, then Nasus probably deserves to win.

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2QERKmEQ,comment-id=00230000,timestamp=2016-05-12T21:57:22.291+0000)

Just to be clear, I don't think Quinn is a weaker Champion after the update; in fact, I think her new kit makes her very strong. That doesn't mean her changes are totally appropriate for the character she's meant to be though, which is why I felt the urge to make this post.

As for the Nasus thing, I do think there's room for him to win early if Quinn messes up severely (i.e. fighting him in or around his minion wave, not kiting correctly, etc.) In cases like that, then Nasus probably deserves to win.

I really feel like she plays better too. Old Quinn was a mess. Using her ult for anything other than getting around the map or finishing someone off was usually a trap, and her Q didn't really do enough damage to matter and was basically there to sometimes autowin against AA based champions. She was a kind of ok splitpusher who could kind of assassinate other ADCs and bully melees in lane before falling off.

MiTsuO Akai1 votes

Can you please repost this so it gets more views... I WANT OLD QUINN BACK ALSO!!

Valor Bot2 votes

Right now, I'm hoping to see a Quinn-related dev corner update like the ones that were released yesterday for Garen and Skarner, perhaps alongside other follow-up posts about the reworked Marksmen. It's possible that may never happen, of course, but I'm optimistic.

Miraweave1 votes

I really like the new quinn. Her old ult was fun, but it's really difficult to make an ability like that work on a ranged champion and quinn definitely wasn't anywhere near there. If you look at champs like Jayce or Nidalee you get an idea of how much power has to be in a melee form for it to be worth engaging with, and quinn doesn't and shouldn't have that kind of power.

Valor Bot2 votes

Tag Team definitely had its weaknesses (and some were appropriate, as no ability should be perfect in every situation), but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was totally dysfunctional.

For one, Valor wasn't really meant to be used as a tool for engaging 5v5s with. His primary strength lied in chasing and assassinating low-defense enemy targets, not diving into the middle of a teamfight -- he wasn't naturally tanky or evasive enough to survive engagements like that, unlike Nidalee, who can hop in and out of fights with her Cougar Form on a relatively low cooldown, or Jayce, who gains bonus defensive stats for switching into his Hammer Form. Valor's lack of defense and post-Vault evasiveness, though, meant that he could have the strengths that he had: a huge movement speed buff, attack speed buff, and AoE execute that you didn't even need to aim because it was centered around you. These were incomparable elements that were nothing to scoff at.

I agree that the blind on Quinn and Valor's Q meant they were stronger vs. auto attack-reliant Champions than others, but that doesn't mean it was impossible for them to succeed against more spell-reliant Champions as well, it was just a bit trickier (i.e. use Tag Team's bonus movement speed to juke Ahri's charms, Vault LeBlanc in the middle of her Distortion animation to interrupt it and gain an advantage, etc.) In any case, no Champion should easily be able to succeed against every other kind of Champion in the game because that would just be plain unfair. I know that's probably not what you're suggesting, but I just want to make sure.

Ultimately, I'm with you that Quinn and Valor weren't a perfect balance between melee and ranged Champions in one kit, but I do think that trying to find a way to make them both work would have been better than removing Valor's kit and identity as a 'Champion' altogether, especially since it's so core to their lore and thematic ("The pair's unbreakable bond is deadly on the battlefield, leaving opponents ravaged and riddled with arrows long before they realize who they're fighting: not one, but two Demacian legends").

Thanks for your thoughts :)

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