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Stop with the auto-pilot and handicaps on champions

deadlychuck··3 votes·342 views

Can we please get more champions designs with less mechanics shoved into the natural flow of the champion's kit just to add power into their design, with no real additional effort on the player's part.

All of the champions who actually require any degree of continuous effort to play effectively (beyond muscle memory after the first 5-10 games) are often given such massive power budgets that it compensates for actually needing to put that continuous effort into the champion.

Basically, lower the impact of the difficult champions and/or cut down on the kit management handicaps. If a champion is going to be 3 times more complex than Annie then they should be consistently 3 times harder to play. This means, stop with the extra passives attached to active abilities, stop with the multi-stage abilities, stop with all of the fluff in a kit which requires zero, or less than previous, management of information for benefits. I'm looking at you Malzahar

The most mechanically complex champions, should naturally have the lowest win rates. Yet they constantly don't, they're given handicaps with their numbers and mechanics based on the results. I'm not talking wall of text abilities for "complexity" i mean things like, timer/stack tracking, actual skill shots (not impossible to miss combo pieces), and skills that can backfire for fizzle based on usage criteria.

16 Comments

gabetheguy1 votes

why the fuck would I play a difficult champ when I could just play an easy champ and get the same results? lmao

deadlychuck2 votes

Idk about you, why might you run a 10k when you could use a car and get the same results?

gabetheguy1 votes

{quoted}

Idk about you, why might you run a 10k when you could use a car and get the same results?

actually it's more like "why would you fly first class when you could strap yourself to the wing of the plane XD" there is literally no point of playing a difficult champion if an easy champion can get the same results.

deadlychuck1 votes

What are you talking about?

The reasons some people will play a more difficult champions instead of an easy champions, is because they find the satisfaction of winning with a disadvantage more satisfying than the loses it takes to achieve it.

The less difficult the journey, the less satisfying the reward.

Riot has watered down the satisfaction for succeeding on champions, by constantly compensating their weaknesses. In general you can actually find this everywhere in the game, both in how they're designing champions to have completely rounded kits with no holes only weak points and how they balance the stats of champions. Most AD champions with mana never needing to buy mana items. Even worse why they just remove the limiting mechanic of mana all together, and/or replace it with a empowering mechanic to a kit which functions without it.

gabetheguy1 votes

{quoted}

What are you talking about?

The reasons some people will play a more difficult champions instead of an easy champions, is because they find the satisfaction of winning with a disadvantage more satisfying than the loses it takes to achieve it.

The less difficult the journey, the less satisfying the reward.

Riot has watered down the satisfaction for succeeding on champions, by constantly compensating their weaknesses. In general you can actually find this everywhere in the game, both in how they're designing champions to have completely rounded kits with no holes only weak points and how they balance the stats of champions. Most AD champions with mana never needing to buy mana items. Even worse why they just remove the limiting mechanic of mana all together, and/or replace it with a empowering mechanic to a kit which functions without it.

so you're saying that using a difficult champion should literally put you at a disadvantage. LMAO.

deadlychuck2 votes

You do realize how tautological that sounds right?

By definition, a champion is only difficult when they're at a disadvantage.

gabetheguy1 votes

{quoted}

You do realize how tautological that sounds right?

By definition, a champion is only difficult when they're at a disadvantage.

yeah. and complete mastery of that champ would be pointless if fucking annie could get the same result.

deadlychuck1 votes

Wow you really don't understand how to see things as anything other than potential results do you?

You've got this mentally of condensing down a series of events into a single event. From A-Z, yes, they've got the same potential. But while Annie might be able to jump from A > E > L > R > Z A more complex champion who goes A > C > J > N > P > R > W > Z

Has more opportunity to adjust their course of action, and naturally more flexibility in something like engage/disengage and generally responding to changing circumstances.

gabetheguy1 votes

{quoted}

Wow you really don't understand how to see things as anything other than potential results do you?

You've got this mentally of condensing down a series of events into a single event. From A-Z, yes, they've got the same potential. But while Annie might be able to jump from A > E > L > R > Z A more complex champion who goes A > C > J > N > P > R > W > Z

Has more opportunity to adjust their course of action, and naturally more flexibility in something like engage/disengage and generally responding to changing circumstances.

try gitting gud.

deadlychuck1 votes

And now you've devolved to this pathetic meme.

gabetheguy1 votes

{quoted}

And now you've devolved to this pathetic meme.

nah. you're crying about getting your ass kicked my malzahar, which is pretty pathetic in itself.

deadlychuck1 votes

What? lol

I'm actually curious how you came to a conclusion that's so far off base.

I don't even remember when the last time was that I played against a malzahar tbh.

Paroe1 votes

So.... This is essentially a malzahar complaint thread disguised as a plea to stop power creep?

deadlychuck2 votes

No, I just used him as an example because i'm more familiar with how his kit changed into this kind of a design. It's not even really about power creep either. I"m more saying if you're going to make a champion harder to play then don't undermine that by making them more powerful to compensate.

A "difficult" champion should be difficult to succeed while using. An "easy" champion should be easier to succeed while using.

To not design it this way, is unfair to the players who each want different experiences, because it makes the "difficult" champions win more and the "easy" champions win less.

Kaioko1 votes

More power can be shoved into difficult champions because there's usually some form of counter-play to it. Skillshots are a great example of that -- they usually have stronger base damage, scalings and range to compensate for them being dodgeable.

Not sure why malzahar was brought into this -- his kit remains on the simpler side of League. As another side note however -- the game has evolved and has more experienced players than it did in 2010. In order to keep it interesting and viable it has been forced to create more difficult champions. Riot cannot release champions that are similar to the ones released in beta.

deadlychuck1 votes

Not sure why malzahar was brought into this -- his kit remains on the simpler side of League.

Because i'm familiar with the changes from his old design to his new one. The two mechanics which they changed were voidlings and his passive. Both of which were designed to change nothing about your decision making as AP, but both providing more to the champion. Effectively from Jan 2016 to Present, riot increase the champion's output complexity without changing the champion's input complexity. Which is done through the kind of mechanics i describe as "handicaps" and "auto-pilot".

In order to keep it interesting and viable it has been forced to create more difficult champions. Riot cannot release champions that are similar to the ones released in beta.

These two concepts are not necessarily bound. A champion can be both different from other champions without having more total mechanics shoved into the kit.

Although, this kinda ignores one of my other points. These champion's aren't "more difficult". They just have more going on, and their complexity is often compensated with power. Though riot rarely translates that to player input complexity, or at least it tends to be inversely related. With a champion with 50% more mechanics, only gaining maybe 10% more input complexity.

When it comes down to it. Two perfectly played different champions, in relatively equal circumstances, should be equally powerful (within error) regardless of champion complexity. Champion A, played at 50% efficiency shouldn't be as powerful as Champion B, played at 75% efficiency, just because champion A has more going on in their kit.

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