People acting like they're just now noticing that Zoe Q is pre-rework nid spear...

deadlychuck·Nov 24, 2017·34 votes·2,208 views

But this was blatant from the moment she was announced...

Why did this have to get to live before people started raising flags?

Were people just too distracted with all of the runes, BE, and her 18 flashes in her trailer to recognize that it's literally a better version of that one mechanic that riot removed?

Personally i never had an issue with the old nid spears, but if they're going to remove it from the game, it at least makes sense to stick to your design principles.

34 Comments

ModAcademy KaynNov 24, 201716 votes

But it's not! If she wants to hit you with it, she always has to get within the 800 range around herself. Sure, her jump kinda extends that, but the jump is equally obvious, and adding in more than just the projectile animation to react to.

Z3SleeperNov 24, 20176 votes

Agreed, extremely telegraphed and very short ranged in respect to her position, very easy to dodge as long as you aren't CC'd. She practically has to put herself within ranged attack range in order to land in.

I've killed Zoe's as an ADC by simply nuking her with basic attacks while she's stuck in her ult. It's definitely not a safe ult at all since it puts her in kill range for a second.

WheatloafNov 24, 20172 votes

She also lacks sustain and an escape compared to Nidalee. There's not much similar other than "has a strong line skillshot that scales with range".

NihiruNov 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Zs4kRBY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-11-24T08:45:43.870+0000)

But it's not! If she wants to hit you with it, she always has to get within the 800 range around herself. Sure, her jump kinda extends that, but the jump is equally obvious, and adding in more than just the projectile animation to react to.

How are you meant to punish a jump? If you cc her she just goes back out, you don't have enough time to go to the original portal if she uses it over a wall. The only proper way to punish it is with a Camille ulti too.

QuephaNov 24, 20178 votes

"Wow this champion looks broken" "Ugh you haven't even played against it yet how can you say that without even seeing her in a single game" "Wow this champion is broken" "Geez why didn't you say so sooner you had all the information about how her kit worked for over a month now"

deadlychuckNov 24, 20172 votes

I don't tell people to wait to play against a champion, unless it's a question of numbers. Most mechanics don't need to be experienced first hand to critique and understand.

QuephaNov 24, 20171 votes

You’re just as wrong to poo-poo people who waited until they played against the champion.

Taliyah RocksNov 24, 20174 votes

Because most of Zoe's damage comes from her Q, while Nidalee has her second form that she can change to for followup burst.

USG FailsawceNov 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Zs4kRBY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-24T08:03:59.421+0000)

Because most of Zoe's damage comes from her Q, while Nidalee has her second form that she can change to for followup burst.

Yea too bad Zoe doesn't have any high damage followup combos or anything.

Sraeg2013Nov 24, 20171 votes

Neither did old Nidalee.

PoskeNov 24, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Zs4kRBY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-24T08:03:59.421+0000)

Because most of Zoe's damage comes from her Q, while Nidalee has her second form that she can change to for followup burst.

Incorrect if we are talking about old nid

Old nidalee was insane in siege comps

Old nidalee ofered heal + spear with gimmicky unreliable melee form (which is still quite gimmicky)

Zoe offers one of the most broken Crowd controls + essentially a spear

She could easly become problematic

Weiss GuertenaNov 24, 20171 votes

True. Old Nidalee could literally just blindly spam Q entire game, using other abilities only to defend herself and carry the game. Hell, dumb zero-risk spear chucking was a viable LCS strategy. I dare anyone who says that Zoe's Q is the same to play and win a game with Zoe by just spamming QR and using WE for nothing except defending herself.

Also, I fail to see how sleep is the "most broken crowd control" It's a delayed, worse version of stun (unlike stun, breaks on damage). If that's broken, then Elise's Cocoon or, god forbid, Morgana's Binding shouldn't even exist.

NeidoxNov 24, 20171 votes

Its the bonus damage that is tied to the ability that makes it broken.

Weiss GuertenaNov 25, 20171 votes

Bonus damage's tooltip is quite deceptive though; while it states an attack will deal "double damage", it will deal only as much as bubble impact itself at maximum. And it that regard it's not much worse than some other abilities; say, Mogana's Q has 140 base damage less but 10% higher scaling - only way it's worse than Zoe's E is base damage; it scales better, doesn't require a hit to deal half its damage and, more importantly, isn't broken by being hit - you eat a Morgana Q, you sit there for 3 seconds iregardless on if you don't get sneezed at or gangbanged by 5 people.

A BepiNov 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Zs4kRBY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-24T08:03:59.421+0000)

Because most of Zoe's damage comes from her Q, while Nidalee has her second form that she can change to for followup burst.

No, old nidalee had no damage outside of spears, the rework fixed that Zoe has damage outside of her Q, her E can deal 440 +80% and thats no damage? Add W in there and bam easy 650+, zoe has damage outside of Q but remember Zoe Q is also AoE unlike nidalee

RexxieeNov 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Zs4kRBY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-24T08:03:59.421+0000)

Because most of Zoe's damage comes from her Q, while Nidalee has her second form that she can change to for followup burst.

Old nid never used melee form for anything other than to spam pounce.

Sraeg2013Nov 24, 20171 votes

Old Nidalee ONLY ever used the Cougar form when she wanted to dash away.

OnanThaManNov 24, 20173 votes

To be fair, i was disgusted with her entire kit the moment i saw it. Not just her q. Feel like she is an embodiment of whats wrong with riot these days. To much emphasis on mobility, fails to learn from past mistakes, and tries new things without a regard for balance.

MrryZNov 24, 20172 votes

Have you even played Zoe? There's almost no emphasis on mobility, you have your ult, which as a mobility spell, is pretty sub par it's just for temporary repositioning, and her w flash which is pretty rare in most cases and definitely not the primary focus of her kit.

PeppurrNov 24, 20171 votes

She doesn’t have a very good escape either, unless you can pick up a flash shard which I only get when the enemy flashes. Her E is hard to hit and can easily hit a minion instead of a champion and then she is ded.

RexxieeNov 24, 20172 votes

Old nid didnt have a 1500 range 2s spammable hard CC :/

Sraeg2013Nov 24, 20172 votes

Pretty sure old Nida's spear had that unique CC of forcing the enemy to go back to the base.

e46 FanaticNov 24, 20171 votes

Nidalee

DengedenNov 24, 20171 votes

Only slower.

Z3SleeperNov 24, 20171 votes

It has nowhere near as much range. It's practically only basic attack range and much more telegraphed.

KloqdqNov 24, 20171 votes

Eh? Paddle Star doesn't honestly look that amazing compared to Nid Spear. The set up for getting Q to do a lot of damage is super telegraphed, it's slower and the key part that made Nid spears busted was them coming out of fog of war slightly invis so you could get cucked by them with no chance to dodge.

Friendly RamNov 24, 20171 votes

Well at least they aren't invisible yet. Nid spears do still scale with distance traveled, just not based on nids position anymore.

VediusNov 24, 20171 votes

Ok ive seen this post a lot lately and it wasnt the damage people complained about with Nid spear, someone did the math and a full ap nid today can do more damage with a spear. It was the fact that the hitbox was so bad you couldnt dodge the 1800 damage spear very easily. Zoe q shouldnt even be compared to old nids spear since she has to get in range to make it damagable and it has a small hitbox unless it hits a minion or something to which it has a small area of effect. ive gone against a lot of zoes and it never feels like she does anything a syndra or orianna couldnt do but they are safer about doing it. Cool she has a delayed CC that BREAKS the second she is hit by any enemy damage.

NTrumpWeTrustNov 24, 20171 votes

She sacrifices some damage and a more telegraphed playstyle for a hard, easy-to-land CC, a good laning phase and some massive utility with her W. So yeah, she's a walking nidalee spear except better because she can do a lot more than chunk you. Old Nid spear doing 80% of your HP or killing you is not that different than her chunking you for 70% of your HP. They both serve the same purpose: If you get hit, you have to back off, period.

Scary DoorNov 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But this was blatant from the moment she was announced...

Why did this have to get to live before people started raising flags?

Were people just too distracted with all of the runes, BE, and her 18 flashes in her trailer to recognize that it's literally a better version of that one mechanic that riot removed?

Personally i never had an issue with the old nid spears, but if they're going to remove it from the game, it at least makes sense to stick to your design principles.

Actually, PBE players brought this up. Unfortunately, no one listens to feedback from the PBE playerbase, so a lot of them have stopped really trying.

I played Azir on PBE and wrote a list of about 10 bugs that didn't get fixed for over a year, showing that Riot just wanted to release the champion with known bugs and be damned with the feedback.

Sraeg2013Nov 24, 20171 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/290/244/986.png

KuriekoNov 25, 20171 votes

Because most of us dont play PBE and didnt know the exact numbers.

This shouldn't have made it off of playtesting, let alone PBE.

SlowChemicalNov 25, 20171 votes

The difference here being, if you dive Nidalee, she bursts your face in cougar form, while Zoe will struggle. Nidalee shouldn't get to have both.

InfinitexMortalNov 25, 20171 votes

I thought of this too but Zoe only has q and e to dmg people. Nidalee has a transformation into a melee with 3 dmg abilities plus her spear form that includes traps and a heal/attackspeed boost. To be fair Nidalee has way more dmg abilities than Zoe 's 2.