Giving Boots of Swiftness a flat nerf solves nothing.

WoonStruck·May 22, 2016·42 votes·1,895 views

Like others are saying, you need boots to be more defined.

and already overlap a little bit. People are just going to buy whichever is better.

Since MS is extremely valuable, 's buffs made them the go-to choice recently. Nerfing the MS until are used seems like a good answer, but I promise you...people will neglect then.

What you should be doing is nerfing the MS that grant while INCREASING the slow resistance. shouldn't be the "I wanna go fast" option. You already have , which needs buffs as well. should be the "I don't want to be kited" option.

TL;DR make more defined in purpose by increasing the slow resistance alongside these nerfs. If you just focus on the MS portion, it'll always be a power struggle between for speed and for anti-kiting.

25 Comments

Steel BlossomMay 23, 20169 votes

Or we can make boots give melees more movespeed. Would be cool, since half the ranged champios Ahri Leblanc Ezreal Vayne Kalista Lucian don't get any sort of punishments for being ranged anyways.

WoonStruckMay 23, 20168 votes

While I agree melees should have significantly higher MS in general, itemization would be the wrong way to go about it.

Ranged should have higher range (they usually at least 4x as much, often greater), melees should have higher MS, even as high as 25% more. As a basis.

If you think 25% is obscene, first consider that range have 4 times as much range, usually more. They should have to pay for that in some regard. Second, this would open up true balance between range/melee. Putting a melee-power-level kit on a range wouldn't be broken because they would actually be paying for it in some regard compared to a melee without having a weak kit/base stats simply because they're ranged.

It would actually allow marksmen and fighters to be balanced and interchangeable as well, which would be huge for the growth and meta diversity of LoL.

Now that I mention it, I wonder what Meddler's thoughts on this would be.

AbyssphereMay 23, 20165 votes

Congratulations, you just made it so that the only ranged champions they get played are the ones with dashes over walls or specifically anti-melee kits.

Melee needs help against ranged but making it so that immobile ranged champions can never extend past their turret ever again for fear of being effortlessly ran down by a melee is stupid.

DrehirthMay 23, 20161 votes

Truth item 3070 Ashe

Hyrum GraffMay 23, 20165 votes

{quoted}

If you think 25% is obscene

I think 25% is obscene. Consider that the slowest champions in the game have 325 base MS. 25% of that is ~80. Swifties give 60 MS. You're saying we should give all melee champs built in swifties, and then let them buy boots on top of that? That's like, Hecarim with an active MS boost, all the time.

WoonStruckMay 23, 20163 votes

I said "as high as 25%" obviously wouldn't be a constant among all melee champions, and there would be exceptions even outside of those because their kits could actually have trade-offs for having certain advantages/disadvantages that other similar characters do not have.

One could argue that the kiting ability that some champions have is too obscene as well. Riot doesn't seem to want to address the power of range in general. They don't value it highly enough.

So instead, rather than just having melee be a complete disadvantage, you make it equally as potent as range is in this game. If you change your outlook, you'd realize its a much better direction than you first thought. The game would have to be rebalanced so that ranged champions' kits have as much punch as melee, but afterwards everything would be better off.

Currently, League is a game that revolves around being ranged. If you aren't ranged, you have to have some pretty obscene stuff to even be viable. Its pretty obvious that melee ADCs are not viable unless they're overloaded at this point, and its because everything is balanced around whether or not it is ranged, rather than ranged/melee being balanced against each other. Each should have their intrinsic trade-offs, and obviously the ones Riot tries to keep working with do not cut it.

Hyrum GraffMay 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

One could argue that the kiting ability that some champions have is too obscene as well.

I'll agree with this. I've outrun udyr before with Sivir item 3078 item 3046 + Furor

So instead, rather than just having melee be a complete disadvantage, you make it equally as potent as range is in this game. If you change your outlook, you'd realize its a much better direction than you first thought. The game would have to be rebalanced so that ranged champions' kits have as much punch as melee, but afterwards everything would be better off.

This is a reasonable argument.

Currently, League is a game that revolves around being ranged. If you aren't ranged, you have to have some pretty obscene stuff to even be viable. Its pretty obvious that melee ADCs are not viable unless they're overloaded at this point, and its because everything is balanced around whether or not it is ranged, rather than ranged/melee being balanced against each other. Each should have their intrinsic trade-offs, and obviously the ones Riot tries to keep working with do not cut it.

This too.

The counter-argument is what mother teresa said. The upside -- that now ranged can pack as much punch as melee -- is also the downside.

I'm not sure which of these arguments is right.

WoonStruckMay 24, 20161 votes

I mean, its almost certain that it wouldn't be perfect at first. Hell, it would probably take several seasons to come close to getting it right.

However, when range has actual trade-offs, and melees have actual advantages, rather than just having better or worse kits simply due to being either ranged/melee, you'll notice something being ranged isn't nearly as big of a deal.

It wouldn't be like now when range is simply better than melee, so there wouldn't be an issue with range now packing as much punch as melee. Melee would have just as much over range as range has over melee.

Another thing would be that marksmen with dashes would likely have significantly lower MS than ones without. Cases like those would likely be where the 25% differences set in. Immobile melee vs mobile ADC. Think Singed vs Lucian/Ez. The mobile carries would be the ones that would feel weakness in that regard, not so much the immobile carries who are already a risk simply because they have no mobility/MS steroid, like Varus/Ashe.

As a result, you'd also see a surge of 'wardens' as peelers, rather than just engage/disengage. Fights would be a lot more involved overall, similar to previous seasons. Fairly certain Taric would get nerfed as a result, however.

Its very likely that damage would have to be toned down a little across the board as a result of everything. With the state of damage in the game right now, that higher MS would cause many melees to simply overrun ranged. That's a very real problem in the game as well atm, and it would have to be solved in order to ever implement changes like what I've been talking about.

Now, as for which argument is right or wrong...neither.

One stems from Riot's current balance philosophy (which is clearly broken in many aspects). Its their game, so it can't really be 'wrong' as long as they're trying to refine it.

One stems from a direction they could take to make it easier to balance, and would even open them up to more diverse and satisfying characters in the future. Obviously they don't have to use this approach, so it cannot be intrinsically 'right'.

Balance is entirely dependent on numbers/fact; its pretty objective overall. Balance direction/philosophy is based on opinions formed around facts, thus neither argument is right/wrong because they are just balance directions, and which one is considered valid is based on which version of the game the arguments are even implemented in.

Irelia BotMay 23, 20162 votes

You mean something like make boots of speed being +10% movement speed and then most upgrades being + 15% with swiftness being 17 or 18% and Mobility being 10% when in combat and 30% when out of combat?

This would make the natural higher base movement speed of melee a bigger factor but not by much.

Perhaps if this were to happen reverting the across the board buff to all champs movement speed by a flat 25 would be within reason but that would also effect these numbers a bit.

That was also done to kil the everyone starts with boots meta that ruled the game for a while so don't get to excited by that concept.

WoonStruckMay 23, 20163 votes

My only issue with this is that it wouldn't be enough.

By concept, its a good idea, but then you run into the fact that melee have base stats that are about even in gold value. Yeah, they trade base damage for HP/MR usually, but there's little-to-no trade-off for their range.

Melee have less than 10% greater MS than range. Some have less than a couple of the ranged champs. Meanwhile ranged champions have 4x or greater range than melee champions. Is it any wonder that just being ranged is so insanely powerful, and often a 'viability safety-net' for some champions? With your proposed changes, melees would effectively have only a 1% total MS advantage, which isn't nearly enough to balance against 4x or greater range.

Without tools to make melee directly viable via BKB-like items or turn-speed (DotA), you need to specifically balance the cast to have real trade-offs for their intrinsic advantages/disadvantages based on the balance points in LoL.

MS should be up to 25% greater than ranged champions. However, it WOULD require a new balance direction (and an initial mass-change for every champ in the game, which makes it unlikely) for LoL. Currently, ranged kits are often weaker than many melee ones. With real advantages/disadvantages to being ranged or melee (that are actually balanced vs each other), ranged champions could have kits as powerful as melee without being broken.

It would be better for the direction of LoL as a whole. Currently melees are held back with the advantages that range has over them, and ranged are held back by the insane pressure melees can put on some of them simply because their kits are often better. That's why mobility seems so over-prevalent right now. Mobility mitigates the significance of range/melee, and that's not a proper way to balance the game.

If melees actually got this advantage to make up for being melee, they would simply end up more aggressive/risky, ranged more defensive/safe. Both would be appropriately rewarded, though.

Btw, I know this entire response is kind of tangential to your comment, but I do feel that utilizing the current base MS for % MS-based advantages would not do nearly enough. That's why I turned it in this direction.

Hyrum GraffMay 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Steel Blossom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGovTM2K,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-05-23T03:37:27.552+0000)

Or we can make boots give melees more movespeed. Would be cool, since half the ranged champios don't get any sort of punishments for being ranged anyways.

I think the item you're looking for is item 3742

Meanie40May 23, 20165 votes

Post too logical. End result: Ignored by Riot.

Sire HippingtonMay 22, 20164 votes

imo boots of swiftness are in a good spot right now. Plenty of tanks go mercs for mr/tenacity over bppts of swiftness since the last nerf to swiftness and buff to mercs. Mobi boots are also back in fashion on some who want roaming power since the buff, though another small buff like changeing it from 5sec out of combat to 3-4sec wouldn't hurt, as those boots would suit junglers, just that they hardly get the ms increase between their junglecamps, and in 5sec they also come half way from krugs to lane already, 5 sec in which any other boots offer more mobillity.

Only tabis and berserkers see little play these days, atleast in high elos, and i think the buffs on pbe are enough to make them valid options again.

And no, "I wanna go fast" is not the same niche for mobis and swiftness. Mobis bring out of combat ms but poor incombat, and boots of swiftness add mostly in combat, though they also increase the out of combat which is why most junglers use them. Though one could emphasis that more by changeing them to the usuall 45ms tier 2 and giving them the increased ms duering combat from the fervor enchant, so swiftness are the boots for in combat mobillity, mercs are the mr/tenacity boots and mobis are out of combat mobillity

WoonStruckMay 22, 20162 votes

And no, "I wanna go fast" is not the same niche for mobis and swiftness. Mobis bring out of combat ms but poor incombat, and boots of swiftness add mostly in combat, though they also increase the out of combat which is why most junglers use them.

Actually, yeah they do share the same niche. Otherwise every instance in pro play of players grabbing mobis wouldn't have switched to swifties. Swifties turned into the "I wanna go fast" option, so mobis saw little-to-no use in pro play.

Same issue with mercs, since mercs got nerfed and swifties buffed, swifties became the better diving and even kiting option.

Now they're buffing serk, tabi, and merc, which is good, but they're neglecting mobis and swifties' niches, which is currently just speed. Out of combat is less useful than general, which is why mobis aren't used. Their niche isn't strong enough, which is why they over-lap.

Making items generally weak without a strong niche isn't the answer. They should be focusing on their unique passives if they have one, not just the raw stats that are offered. Otherwise people will just use whichever one is the better stat-stick, such as with swifties. MS is one of the most valuable stats in the game.

Buffing niche use and nerfing general use is the best way to balance items that are out of line, but won't be used when they aren't. Instead they're nerfing Swifties into never-use territory again.

AzlagorMay 22, 20163 votes

Going ham on niches isn't always the best way for balance, as it can create hard counter scenarios. If one were to buff the slow reduce on swiftness to 50%, any heavily slow reliant champ would either need to get compensation buffs, makeing them rather opressive vs anypne without swiftness, or they stay as they are and become rather irelevant as soon as theri oponents pick up boots of swiftness, a scenario well known from strong heals and grevious wounds.

Also the in-combat mobillity offered ba swiftness is imo a niche that can be more easily reinforced without causeing balance issues with a hard-counter scenario like slow-reduce would do.

WoonStruckMay 22, 20162 votes

Okay, you're making a bunch of bad examples.

First off, they'd buff it to 35%, giving it the same effectiveness vs slows as tenacity, if anything. That wouldn't mean anyone with a slow would need compensation buffs in the same way that any champ with CC doesn't get compensation buffs for tenacity being in the game.

Swifties are never oppressive against slows unless swifties are a universal option on all champs like now due to the MS they have, not the slow resist. Consider that almost any situation they would feel 'oppressed', its a situation where the slows would be oppressive without. Even now.

Grievous Wounds is a terrible parallel because healing is largely dependent on the amount. Slows are largely dependent on the duration. Merc Treads hurt champs reliant on slows more than swifties, with the exception of constantly re-applicable slows (which are generally oppressive).

In-combat mobility obviously cannot be a niche to be reinforced without causing balance issues. Notice how it becomes the only choice when it has significant MS.

Swifties, even when buffed to 35% slow resist, are not a hard counter any more than tabis or merc treads are. Please, if you're going to give bad parallels as your examples, look at the ones already in the game that make it clear that this IS what should happen, considering the history boots have gone through.

Jungle Lux GodMay 23, 20163 votes

Boots of Swiftness should be the "in combat movement speed" option for boots while Boots of Mobility should be the "out of combat movement speed" option.

I think it would be a very good idea to emphasize that aspect of Boots of Swiftness so it doesn't overlap as much as Boots of Mobility as much.

Mercury's Treads are a different story, as you can't really forget that Mercs also give magic resistance, so there's more choice than "tenacity vs slow resistance".

DreadlocksMay 22, 20162 votes

I agree, swifties has been outclassed since I started in season 4, and for reasons u have mentioned they were finally worth buying. RIP swifties all over again.. :(

WoonStruckMay 22, 20161 votes

Garen and Singed were basically the only champs to ever use them before Season 4 as well. Even then it was considered pretty trap. Resists and tenacity was too valuable to give up back then.

Sometimes Teemo used them, but most went berserker grieves or sorc shoes.

DreadlocksMay 23, 20161 votes

Yeah I like ur idea forsure. Mercs should be the choice vs snares stuns etc. And swifties vs slows..

WeatheredMay 23, 20162 votes

They are called boots of swiftness...

Hyrum GraffMay 23, 20162 votes

I agree that swifties should be the "I don't want to be kited" boot and Mercs should be the "I don't want to be locked down" boot.

I agree that giving swifties shouldn't be bought for flat MS. I'd suggest a slightly different changes, though.

Nerf swifties down to 45 MS, same as all the others. Then give them +15 MS when moving towards enemy champions. Then tweak the slow resist value as required to balance them.

BeldairMay 23, 20161 votes

I only ever used Swifties on Tahm and Aurelion. Tahm so i can get in faster to eat someone, Aurelion so i could keep up with my Q better and keep up with othrr champs to keep hitting them with the stars.

WoonStruckMay 23, 20162 votes

Meanwhile everyone else uses them on everyone unless they specifically need something else.

They are the default right now, essentially, because Riot's been focusing on its flat MS, rather than its passive.

The MS makes them the best for kiting, the best for sticking, the best for dodging, etc. That's why Riot needs to focus on the passive, rather than use the MS to make it good.

BeldairMay 23, 20161 votes

I completely agree.

Although, and i might be one of the few that does it, i buy boots depending on who i play and the opponents comp.

If i'm Leona and they have a lot of AP, i'm getting Mercury. If i'm an adc, berserker's. Etc...