"if [Lee Sin] is viable, he is almost always the right man for the job. This is most visible in pro play, where he has remained a generic pick whenever a team needs a solid [champion], agnostic to other factors such as enemy or ally team composition."
#Tell me this doesn't descibe Lee Sin to the letter.
Dolasaur9 votesIt was one of multiple reasons they said they're reworking him. The other three points they listed don't really apply to Lee. For reference:
-High Power, Low Satisfaction - Lee is very high satisfaction for the people who play him. They play him even when he's weak. -Rewarding Gameplay Mastery - His curve is pretty high. It's not Aurelion Sol or Taliyah, but it's a far cry from Maokai. -Fleshing Out Fantasy - Eh. Maybe? I'm not into Lee's lore, so I can't comment on this one.
It's not an excuse. It is part of the greater picture.
Shinjusuke9 votesyeah but Lee Sin is their fucking baby.
They don't actually give a flying fuck about game health or champion balance where Lee Sin is involved, they care about their LCS views.
Lee Sin brings in LCS views because every Rioter and every shoutcaster is so terrible at the game they think "Insec"-ing is some god-tier next-level super-pro hyper-difficult major outplay, instead of the easily learned, easily performed bread-and-butter part of his kit that it actually is.
Riot literally outright ignores any Lee Sin posts that don't just point how cool his moves are.
You guys remember the weekly spotlights? Y'know, where they would highlight "sick plays fam"? Remember how literally all but like 2 of them were Lee Sin plays?
Riot wouldn't see their own fuckin' bias for that infuriating braindead fanboy-fuel of a champion if it punched each Rioter in their respective taints lol
7 years and running of Riot not treating Lee Sin with the same level of scrutinizing as every other champ gets. Yaaaaaasuo comes close to the same kind of "immunity cuz I'm flashy" treatment but not as bad.
Let's go for 8 years Riot! Wooo! Favoritism FTW!!!! :D :D :D
Ralanr5 votesProblem is that apparently Lee is viable equally at all levels of play because his power is dependent on the player. Maokai's power is not.
BakedLotion84 votesProblem is that apparently Lee is viable equally at all levels of play because his power is dependent on the player. Maokai's power is not.
R Q Q so hard
WoonStruck53 votesThis.
If they removed ward-hops, yeah, Lee would be a better design to the point where Ralanr's statement would make sense.
However, as it stands, Lee is just about as easy as Maokai, if not easier due to the amount of options you have at any given point.
Angrychickén7 votesNot true, at all. Let's take a look at some win rates, shall we?
Lee Sin has around a 43 to 44 percent win rate on players with 1-5 games on him. He then has a 47 percent win rate on people with five to fifteen games on him, it isn't until you get to that past fifteen games point where the win rate even becomes even.
Now Maokai has a 49/50 percent win rate for new players, until you have over 125 games on him, giving you a massive win rate, probably inflated by how few Maokai OTPS there are, meaning that they can have a really good win rate, but it is only like ten players.
So comparing our two win rates, Lee Sin is incredibly low win rate for over half of the players playing him, whereas Maokai is really even throughout.
So Lee Sin is not as easy as Maokai, at least look up some facts before hand.
Sexy Jack Rabbit22 votesIt takes the average Taliyah player roughly 55 - 105 games to begin average a consistent 52% win rate.
Even in that scenario it can fluctuate from an average of 45 - 125 games.
That is the statistics of a skill-based champion.
Lee Sin on the otherhand takes an average of 15 - 45 games, to begin an average of the exact same win-rate. That is not the statistics of a skill-based champion.
Only in the worst case scenario will a Lee Sin player end in the same position as the best case scenario of a Taliyah player.
TeCoolMage4 votesEven though Lee Sin is braindead easy, using Taliyah as a comparison is unfair since Taliyah is among the highest mastery curves in the game. Something mid tier like Orianna, Yasuo, Karma or Zyra would be a better comparison
PermabannedGaren4 votesHowever, as it stands, Lee is just about as easy as Maokai
Ah, the stupid "Lee is actually super easy all the challenger players who say he's hard are wrong" argument.
I also love how it's almost always someone who plays relatively braindead champions who throw this criticism at Lee Sin, and looking at your ranked history in seasons 5, 6, and 7 this appears to be true.
Anyway, Lee Sin won't be reworked for a long time because he's a fun and healthy champion. I'm sorry that you have an irrational hatred towards him being popular.
An Undead brat15 votesLee is not hard to play.
Hi, I'm mid 
and 
main.
Lee's ward -> W -> R -> Q -> Q is absolutely toxic and braindead point-and-click combo which kills everything that has no mobility with no counterplay even when Lee has no items.
Your argument in absolutely invalid.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=21ppIWy2,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-02-25T01:16:29.605+0000)
Lee is not hard to play.
Hi, I'm mid
Lee's ward -> W -> R -> Q -> Q is absolutely toxic and braindead point-and-click combo which kills everything that has no mobility with no counterplay even when Lee has no items.
Your argument in absolutely invalid.
He's harder to play than either of those champions actually (though Azir has a higher skill floor than Lee, and his skill cap at least comes fairly close, Zyra by comparison is brain-dead).
An Undead brat6 votesAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Seriously, you are trolling now. This conversation ended, you have no interest in getting a solution, Azir is the hardest champion in the game without doubt and you clearly did never even touch Zyra, otherwise you would know how unforgiving she is. But what to expect from a Garen player :')
Qukslice2 votesHis combo isn't the only thing that could make him difficult. What about positioning? What about jungling? What about ganking lanes well? Not to mention, his real damage would come from his q. If he misses his q, he's missing out on basically half of his damage.
An Undead brat8 votesQukslice2 votesSo if Lee Sin is the god of all things holy, why don't we see him win in every game? According to Champion.gg, Lee Sin is sitting at a 49.3% win rate and a 27.64% playrate and only makes it to positive winrates after 15 to 50 games. For a hyper mobile, reliable, easy jungling, basically noob proof jungler, Lee Sin seems like a difficullt champion at many different skill levels.
How about you post some actual facts supported by actual evidence from websites and the like? Not hard to google some stats and base your arguements off of there. Especially since not everyone who plays Lee is a combo stringing god.
3TWarrior6 votesyou actually just stated the reason yourself
players that are committed to lee sin can and will learn how to master him.
According to champion.gg for lee, he reaches 50% win rate at only 15 games, not 50 whereas at 50 games, his win rate is at 53% . As per how confusing statistics are, why does champion.gg's statistics list his win rate going DOWN after 50 wins?
as for lee being in every game, he has close to a 28% playrate, meaning 1 in 4 matches will include him in platinum and above. If we take a look at lee sin's statistics, the higher up you go, the higher lee's win rate is, even passing 60%
lee is a popular champion, but lets take a look at the less popular azir. Azir has a 2.49% pick rate, meaning he will appear in 1/50 games. His win rate base is roughly 42%
even after 125 games, his win rate is still only 46%
i'll take a look at another popular champion, Zed.
Zed has an average 50% win rate beginning at only 5 games played.
zed is supposed to be a mechanically intensive champion with lots of strategic play involved and the ability to easily make a mistake and ruin his setup
if statistics were really viable in league, Aatrox will be receiving a nerf soon because out of almost 600 games played this season (apparently only played by dedicated mains), Aatrox has a 100% win rate at only 15 games played and maintains that stat to 50 games played then rapidly drops to a 3% win rate at a total of 125 games played
the consistent pattern with popular champions? easy to learn and easy to win with
10Tickler4 votesWhat about jungling?
What about it? He's got an easy time jungling from built-in shield and lifesteal+Spellvamp.
Shinjusuke2 votesHe's really, really not lol
There are actually non-Rioters who believe this? Really?
PermabannedGaren1 votesHe's really, really not lol
There are actually non-Rioters who believe this? Really?
There are. You are speaking to someone who is vastly your intellectual superior. It must be intimidating.
Oh, and I have a question: you say that Rioters think Lee Sin is a difficult champion because they are bad at the game. Does this go for ex-pros in challenger like IWillDominate as well, who have said Lee is among the most difficult champions?
Shinjusuke1 votesPeople who feel the need to pretend they're intellectually superior are usually just self-important morons.
Like yourself, for example. It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect. Look it up sometime, might explain a significant amount of your life so far.
As for your post, honestly, you bring up a valid point and it would be an interesting debate, were it not for the fact you resorted to insults in like 2 posts, so you're obviously not worth talking to.
Have fun telling yourself you're not the douchey gutter slime you exposed yourself as.
Angrychickén1 votesYAY! You just wasted half your kit on some damage that will easily be healed and puts you in a position of vulnerability in a teamfight.
Good job
BakedLotion6 votes[{quoted}](name=Abzan Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=21ppIWy2,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2017-02-24T20:31:30.100+0000)
YAY! You just wasted half your kit on some damage that will easily be healed and puts you in a position of vulnerability in a teamfight.
Good job
late game maybe, but early/midgame? It'll blow up anyone.
RavenMagus9 votesEasily healed?
By the fountain in 30 seconds when they finish respawning, sure.
Angrychickén1 votesHeal as a sumoner spell, life steal, soraka heals if you have one, there are quite a few healing factors in the game that make rqq damage very negligible.
50000000000000005 votesYou can't lifesteal if you're being kicked away.
Guyy Fieri12 votesR Q Q so hard
It's not like there are twenty other combination of skills Lee has to use. Meanwhile Maokai is the same thing always. W-Q towards your allies-R-stand there and tank
GayFluffyUnicorn15 votesThen you are the worst and most useless maokai ever. Btw how can you W-Q towards your ally as maokai? It's new to me you can W or Q your allies.
Rozzeta5 votesPlease do mention the other 20
x2 Lune5 votesFuck riot lel
The Yetii Rider3 votesLee Sin is actually basically a weaker, slightly higher damage but overall less utility form of Rek'Sai in pro play.
Lee Sin has a knock back, but that pales in comparison to a global ult.
Rek'Sai's ward hop doesn't require wards and also gives her mobility over time where ever she leaves it.
Rek'Sai's Q applies a slow, and her AOE knock up and Tremorsense are much more valuable than Lee Sin's abilities.
And Rek'Sai's clearing is about the same as Lee's.
They bring largely the same benefit to the table (highly mobile diver) but Rek'Sai is just MORE mobile than Lee Sin.
Legacy Hydralpha1 votesThey bring largely the same benefit to the table (highly mobile diver) but Rek'Sai is just MORE mobile than Lee Sin.
I'm not contradicting or arguing with you, but both champions (Lee Sin and Rek'Sai) are mobile, but in different ways.
Rek'Sai has a more roam-based mobility, where she can move around a lot, very quickly. On the other hand, Lee Sin has a lot of combat mobility, meaning he is able to use his mobility more in combat to evade damage, reposition, and chase down enemies. With Rek'Sai's mobility in combat, I mostly use it to engage and to chase down enemies after a teamfight. Rek'Sai is pretty far into her mini-rework though, which is focused on changing her into a single-target diver like Lee Sin, so it's possible that her overall gameplay (not just diving) could become more or less similar to Lee Sin.
The Yetii Rider3 votesI'm just talking about pro play though, because that's what OP is talking about.
In pro play, nothing Lee Sin brings to the table comes close to Tremorsense. That ability is ridiculous. You can see your opponents' movements, you don't need to facecheck and it can't be cleared like a ward. You know which camps you can safely steal and which ones to avoid while in the enemy jungle. You can aim skill shots better when someone ducks into a brush. You can tell when the enemy team is doing dragon.
Additionally, the out of combat roaming is just better because it means less time spent in base. More often than not pros will use Rek'sai's ult as soon as it comes off CD so they can keep farming without needing to return to the jungle from base. That's a huge chunk of gold and XP Rek'sai has over Lee Sin.
DorkunedAuras3 votesRek'Sai's "Ward hop" is significantly slower than Lee Sin's.
Rek'Sai has no slows. Her only CC is the unburrow knockup
Rek'Sai is not more mobile than Lee sin. She has better map mobility, able to get from point A to B faster. Lee Sin has far better in combat mobility. He has two fast dashes to her one slow dash. If she happens to be near an undestroyed tunnel, she can get another one, but that's mostly luck.
WoonStruck3 votesThat, and her ult is basically only used to farm camps faster after a recall, or have objective presence from the other side of the map.
She has the worst 'global' presence out of all of the long-ranged skills/mobility.
Pope Glitterhoof3 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=21ppIWy2,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-02-24T23:57:25.426+0000) Rek'Sai's Q applies a slow
Since when has that been a thing?
Hahahahyena1 votesit was actually removed during her pbe (i think it was her pbe) but that was when she was new
Pope Glitterhoof1 votesThat was before she was released.
KoggyStyle2 voteslee dies if he fucks up, mao presses r and gets a hella lot tankier.
Nameless Voice18 votesHe has to mess up a lot. He has ward hops to easily escape, and a CC-knockback to kick away enemies that he can't win a fight against for some reason.
Not saying Lee players don't mess up a lot and die, but he has always felt like a "low-risk" champion to me because he has so many tools to get out of his own mistakes.
Big Lincoln1 votesLee son is viable right now but I still see a lot of other jungles, same for every other season
I do not see other tanks besides Maokai when Maokai is good unless tanks are overpowered
WoonStruck20 votesOh really. Tell me how many more junglers you see more than once every 10 games.
Tell me how many aren't just being played because of Lethality.
And outside of those, how many aren't being played just because they have a shot of keeping up with Lee Sin.
Big Lincoln4 votesrengar, khazix, elise, vi, hecarim
season 5 pretty much all tank junglers
i don't remember anything from season 6
boards whines a lot about Lee sin but tbh I see these other top jungles being way more oppressive in regards to diversity.
WoonStruck17 votesRengar and Kha are only being played because they're objectively overtuned AND Lethality is overtuned as hell.
Elise, Vi, and Hecarim are THE champions that are meta solely because Lee is. They're some of the only champs that can keep up with him if others aren't overtuned.
Go back and look at meta history.
Any time Lee is decent, those three are meta, barring the period where Hec was over-nerfed.
Nameless Voice18 votesSeason 5 was the only only season where Lee Sin wasn't dominant. That's probably why it was the highest-voted season in that recent poll - it's certainly why I voted for it.
Ahristocats9 votesElise Heca Vi are all in the same class than lee
Lee pushes out every single other jungler because he can replace their niche due to his kit
Angrychickén1 votesHecarim and Vi he cannot actually replace because he does not have guaranteed access to the back line from being on the front line, he needs a strong flank for his ultimate to become actually useful to the game. His e is almost non existent from where I stand, and as far as Elise goes, he doesn't have a level three gank that is actually that strong.
Ahristocats3 votesWhich is why they are played I'm talking about the junglers that aren't played, they have been replaced by lee for a long time
and lee has an access on the backline, he can decide to jump or not if he hits a tank or not with his Q which makes him a better blitzcrank because if blitz hooks a tank he's fucked, if lee use Q and it hits a tank he can just walk away
ward hoping is also 700 range please dude you can't be serious when you tell me that lee doesn't have a guaranteed access to the back line he can use the frontline as a ball and kick a tank into the backline (1000 range) and deals bonus 18% bonus hp damage
doodlebob6662 votesi get lee sin is more oppressive in higher elo, but doesn't graves cause even more of a problem there?
Ahristocats4 votesYes
because of lethality and edge of the night
doodlebob6662 votesi find it kindof depressing how things can be broken at the top of the ladder for month's but only gets addressed if it ends up hurting either proplay or lower elo's. Seems like an incentive for the best player's to just smurf