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Diana's Reworked Passive Doesn't Work In Her Kit

Best Ekko NA··22 votes·1,748 views

So basically, Diana acquired Lee Sin's passive, as opposed to just permanently always having extra attack speed. There are a few problems with this however.

  1. Diana is a burst champion, her "role" is to nuke people with her abilities.
  2. It usually requires all of Diana's abilities at once to kill an enemy.
  3. Diana doesn't really have spammable abilities (mildly debatable).
  4. Diana can't double cast abilities like Lee Sin.
  5. Diana uses mana and can't afford to spam abilities off cool down.
  6. Diana can't [afford to] auto attack 3 times between Q and R, which makes the passive less efficient.

I don't know why a bigger deal wasn't made about this change, but in reality the change to Diana was to her detriment and gave zero benefits. Her kit doesn't synergize at all with this new passive. For a champion who was already decently balanced, sitting around the 50% marker, I can't even comprehend why the change was made. Diana hasn't been strong for quite a long time, nor has she really been all that weak.

Diana simply doesn't feel like the same champion anymore. I'm not sure what the goal is, but if Diana isn't getting played enough or something this definitely wasn't the right direction to go. If Diana's passive was a problem here's a better suggestion: switch her passive and W around. This sounds pretty weird at first but it makes the attack speed have more synergy with the rest of her kit.

Passive: Every 3 attacks orbs appear around Diana dealing damage to enemies and shielding her upon detonation. W ability: (Passive) Diana permanently gains attack speed. (Active) Diana's next 3 basic attacks deal increased damage, with the final attack lashing outwards in an arc in front of her.

Basically, remove the up front shield and turn her shield into a passive which requires enemy contact to activate. This will make it so that as "Bruiser" Diana, she's less durable. Add the attack speed and "aoe damage" to her ability which can be activated and has a cooldown so that Diana has a choice when to use it.

42 Comments

The5lacker21 votes

I don't think the intention was to ever have Diana be a burst champion. Kinda why she had that bonus AS in the first place.

HalcyonDweller5 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

This, she's a diver. Not an assassin. Just because you can build her full damage and assassinate targets, does not mean that's how she's intended to be played.

The5lacker3 votes

Honestly I wish they'd address her survivability issue. And I don't just mean in her kit, AP junglers basically have no Armor item aside from Zhonya's, which is only really good on Fiddlesticks. Give us something else to build item 3191 Seeker's Armguard into already, Rito!

RavenMagus1 votes

Divers, pretty much universally as a class, are just "assassins but tankier".

Elindiir1 votes

{quoted}

Divers, pretty much universally as a class, are just "assassins but tankier".

Or are Juggernauts but more mobile (see Renekton, Irelia, Hecarim, Aatrox, and Xin Zhao)

RavenMagus1 votes

I wouldn't say that. They don't tend to have the incredible amount of in battle sustain that a juggernaut has. (Irelia's lifesteal is nothing compared to Darius or Nasus. Aatrox, maybe, but... Aatrox.)

But they do deal the damage of an assassin. Diana, Nocturne, Jarvan can all delete squishies faster than an actual assassin.

Elindiir1 votes

I think Renekton is a better example than Aatrox, though, as an Irelia player myself, I find that she is really quite beefy... I won't compare her lifesteal to Darius, but I will compare her trading to Garen's

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Divers trade mobility / escapes for tankiness. That's the difference between them and assassins.

Best Ekko NA2 votes

{quoted}

I don't think the intention was to ever have Diana be a burst champion. Kinda why she had that bonus AS in the first place.

What they might have intended and what they designed are two different things. Her kit in itself literally can't do anything except burst enemies as Diana doesn't have an escape tool to get out of fights with. She's designed to be an all-in champion at the fundamental level. I believe they are trying to class her as a Fighter -> Diver, when she really should be Slayer -> Skirmisher. She's a champion who pokes enemies down with her ranged Q and by trading with her shield, not one that is looking to back-line fights and tower dive enemies.

The5lacker8 votes

Vi doesn't have an escape. Irelia doesn't have an escape. Aatrox doesn't have have an escape. Renekton doesn't have an escape. As a Dive champ, it's fine not to have an escape. What Diana needs to successfully be a dive champ, however, is survivability, and AP Dive champs currently don't have itemization to really support that. Plus her shield is kinda... bad.

I'm not saying her current design is all that great, but going "She has to be a burst assassin because that's how she was played back when she was broken!" doesn't really make any sense. Uber-burst Diana was a mistake. They need to re-tune her as a more dedicated DPS Dive champion who benefits from sticking in fights, and doens't just get mulched when her 200 health shield goes down.

Best Ekko NA2 votes

{quoted}

Vi doesn't have an escape. Irelia doesn't have an escape. Aatrox doesn't have have an escape. Renekton doesn't have an escape. As a Dive champ, it's fine not to have an escape. What Diana needs to successfully be a dive champ, however, is survivability, and AP Dive champs currently don't have itemization to really support that. Plus her shield is kinda... bad.

I'm not saying her current design is all that great, but going "She has to be a burst assassin because that's how she was played back when she was broken!" doesn't really make any sense. Uber-burst Diana was a mistake. They need to re-tune her as a more dedicated DPS Dive champion who benefits from sticking in fights, and doens't just get mulched when her 200 health shield goes down.

All of those champions do have escapes except Irelia, who has monstrous sustain through her ultimate. Renekton's dash doesn't go one way towards enemies, and if he hits an enemy he can dash out. Vi can ult into enemies and use her Q to get out. Aatrox has a passive that allows him to stall for his Q to come back off cooldown. Diana has none of these. Her R goes one single direction - into the enemy - and has no method for escaping.

The5lacker6 votes

"Vi has an escape." You don't play Dive champs, do you? See, if you use your engage tool to engage, you then don't have it as an escape. Because there are these things called cooldowns.

Play a bit of Vi or Xin. Tell me how often you escape if you get in over your head.

Best Ekko NA3 votes

{quoted}

"Vi has an escape." You don't play Dive champs, do you? See, if you use your engage tool to engage, you then don't have it as an escape. Because there are these things called cooldowns.

Play a bit of Vi or Xin. Tell me how often you escape if you get in over your head.

Even if what you are saying is true, it makes no difference in regards to my original post. Arguing her class doesn't change the fact that her current passive on live does nothing for her kit. There's zero synergy.

Also in regards to your comment, every Vi I see all-in's with R and then uses Q to get out if they are getting focused. Xin E's in, then uses his R to escape or his sustain to win the trade. An escape is not always a dash.. when you heal through attacking you usually don't need a dash for getting out of fights.

The5lacker7 votes

"Even if what you're saying is true." So you're admitting you have absolutely no idea how Dive champs even function? xD

Also, "You can just heal through a fight" means you aren't escaping it, you're winning it. Which is what Diana needs to be doing. And step one of that plan is giving her better sustain. Only change I'd make is have her W's cooldown reduced by 1 second on-hit. Bam. Survivability and encouragement to engage in longer fights.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

Only change I'd make is have her W's cooldown reduced by 1 second on-hit.

This is a great idea, it would definitely encourage the diver / skirmisher playstyle! Also I'd love to play Diana if she were more like this. Currently she's just not all that fun to me.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Poptart Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-08T18:39:52.363+0000)

Even if what you are saying is true, it makes no difference in regards to my original post. Arguing her class doesn't change the fact that her current passive on live does nothing for her kit. There's zero synergy.

Also in regards to your comment, every Vi I see all-in's with R and then uses Q to get out if they are getting focused. Xin E's in, then uses his R to escape or his sustain to win the trade. An escape is not always a dash.. when you heal through attacking you usually don't need a dash for getting out of fights.

It's incredibly hard to escape with Q because 1) you're not gonna fucking kill your target unless you hit them with Q and 2) it's bodyblockable, and needs to be charged.

Xin's R is a shit escape because it doesn't hurt the guy he dives into. Also, if he doesn't use it instantly, he just gets peeled off his target. Sustain is NOT an escape. Escapes ARE dashes and blinks, healing through the fight is NOT an escape because you are not fucking ESCAPING. That's called sustain. Escaping is getting out. Sustaining means healing to continue fighting.

its me brna2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=0000000100000001000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-08T18:50:57.898+0000)

It's incredibly hard to escape with Q because 1) you're not gonna fucking kill your target unless you hit them with Q and 2) it's bodyblockable, and needs to be charged.

Xin's R is a shit escape because it doesn't hurt the guy he dives into. Also, if he doesn't use it instantly, he just gets peeled off his target. Sustain is NOT an escape. Escapes ARE dashes and blinks, healing through the fight is NOT an escape because you are not fucking ESCAPING. That's called sustain. Escaping is getting out. Sustaining means healing to continue fighting.

I'm pretty sure the point was that they have other tools to make up for it which a champ like diana is lacking

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=not brna xDD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=00000001000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-08-08T18:54:06.970+0000)

I'm pretty sure the point was that they have other tools to make up for it which a champ like diana is lacking

Eh? What about that fat W shield?

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=0000000100000001000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-08T18:50:57.898+0000)

It's incredibly hard to escape with Q because 1) you're not gonna fucking kill your target unless you hit them with Q and 2) it's bodyblockable, and needs to be charged.

Xin's R is a shit escape because it doesn't hurt the guy he dives into. Also, if he doesn't use it instantly, he just gets peeled off his target. Sustain is NOT an escape. Escapes ARE dashes and blinks, healing through the fight is NOT an escape because you are not fucking ESCAPING. That's called sustain. Escaping is getting out. Sustaining means healing to continue fighting.

Just because it's not a good escape, or you need it to kill someone, doesn't change the fact that you can use it to escape. If you tower dive someone with R and you're going to die as Vi, you can always Q out before you hit them with it. That's a fact. You can't say it's not an escape tool just because it's most common use is to engage or deal damage.

Also, the point with the sustain is more that champions with it don't need escape tools. You deal damage, take damage, you heal back up, repeat. When you are Xin, Aatrox, Irelia, Lee Sin etc. you are able to dive simply because you are able to not only stay healthy but also heal the damage if you can survive the engage. Diana doesn't have this advantage, thus she can't be compared to them from a Diver class perspective. Vi would likely be the closest comparable champion, but as already mentioned, Vi does indeed have an escape even if it's not a commonly used one.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Poptart Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=00000001000000010000000000010001,timestamp=2017-08-08T19:09:29.256+0000)

Just because it's not a good escape, or you need it to kill someone, doesn't change the fact that you can use it to escape. If you tower dive someone with R and you're going to die as Vi, you can always Q out before you hit them with it. That's a fact. You can't say it's not an escape tool just because it's most common use is to engage or deal damage.

No, you really can't, because the range is either fucking abysmal or you need to slow yourself. Obviously not all divers have targeted engages, for skill and variety purposes, but Vi's Q is a TERRIBLE escape. There's also no reason to engage with R if you Q out (unless purely for lockdown, which isn't a Diver's job).

Also, the point with the sustain is more that champions with it don't need escape tools. You deal damage, take damage, you heal back up, repeat. When you are Xin, Aatrox, Irelia, Lee Sin etc. you are able to dive simply because you are able to not only stay healthy but also heal the damage if you can survive the engage. Diana doesn't have this advantage, thus she can't be compared to them from a Diver class perspective. Vi would likely be the closest comparable champion, but as already mentioned, Vi does indeed have an escape even if it's not a commonly used one.

She has a fat shield from W... Vi, Jax, J4, Wukong, no heals anywhere. Irelia, Aatrox, and Xin get heals, but they have no shields or defensive steroids, and Lee is well Lee.

Automated Riven1 votes

I have friends that play vi. And they often use her q as an escape intead of engage.

HalcyonDweller7 votes

Renekton's dash is not long range enough to take him far from a fight, it only really helps him to dodge skillshots or re-position small distances during a fight.

Vi does not use her Q to escape. I used to main her and most of the time I would start a fight with Q, and use the ultimate to follow up if the enemy escaped. If I ever needed to use Q to escape I usually would get killed anyway because Vi's Q is telegraphed and opponents can just interrupt it or body-block it.

Aatrox has to hover in position after casting his Q. That leaves enemies ample time to hit him with more cc or damage. It's not an escape ability either. Simply being free-movement does not qualify it as an escape ability.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

Renekton's dash is not long range enough to take him far from a fight, it only really helps him to dodge skillshots or re-position small distances during a fight.

Vi does not use her Q to escape. I used to main her and most of the time I would start a fight with Q, and use the ultimate to follow up if the enemy escaped. If I ever needed to use Q to escape I usually would get killed anyway because Vi's Q is telegraphed and opponents can just interrupt it or body-block it.

Aatrox has to hover in position after casting his Q. That leaves enemies ample time to hit him with more cc or damage. It's not an escape ability either. Simply being free-movement does not qualify it as an escape ability.

Personal play style doesn't change the fact that the tools are there. Whether you dash in, dash out, the enemy can see it, how far you dash, none of that changes the fact that you can use it as an escape. Also you are correct, free movement doesn't classify as an escape. Diana's R is not an escape, Ekko's E is not an escape, Irelia's Q is not an escape, Lee Sin's Q is not an escape. Anything that is specifically designed to target the enemy is an engage tool. Anything that doesn't however, is equally as much an escape tool as it is an engage tool. Lee Sin's W doesn't target an enemy, but it can be used to engage, Vi's R deals a lot damage to enemies but can be used to run away, Tryndamere's E deals damage to enemies but once again can be used to run. If it can enable you to get out of a bad situation, it's an escape tool regardless of how someone personally believes it should be used.

HalcyonDweller5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Poptart Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=000000010000000100010000,timestamp=2017-08-08T19:24:17.884+0000)

Personal play style doesn't change the fact that the tools are there. Whether you dash in, dash out, the enemy can see it, how far you dash, none of that changes the fact that you can use it as an escape. Also you are correct, free movement doesn't classify as an escape. Diana's R is not an escape, Ekko's E is not an escape, Irelia's Q is not an escape, Lee Sin's Q is not an escape. Anything that is specifically designed to target the enemy is an engage tool. Anything that doesn't however, is equally as much an escape tool as it is an engage tool. Lee Sin's W doesn't target an enemy, but it can be used to engage, Vi's R deals a lot damage to enemies but can be used to run away, Tryndamere's E deals damage to enemies but once again can be used to run. If it can enable you to get out of a bad situation, it's an escape tool regardless of how someone personally believes it should be used.

"Vi's R deals a lot damage to enemies but can be used to run away"

...Wat? Vi's ultimate is a targeted ability that can only target enemy champions... I'm going to just assume you meant Vi's Q. that aside...

For something to qualify as an escape it must be effective at helping that champion escape a fight.

If you are already fighting (or caught) in melee range as Renekton or Vi, you will not be able to dash far enough away to properly escape a fight.

I'm not talking about how abilities should or shouldn't be used. I'm talking about how to use them effectively. Vi's Q is not an effective escape. Nether is Renekton's E. New Galio's dash and Gragas's E come to mind as well. They're either too short a range, or are too telegraphed and predictable / counterable to be reliable forms of escape.

Lee Sin's W is an escape, he can use it to immediately dash a significant distance away. Quinn's E functions well as an escape, because it both CC's her opponent and moves her a significant distance back. Without the CC though, it would only be mediocre as an escape.

All this is off topic though. Diana does not need escapes to function as a diver. And divers in general are not expected to have escapes. This whole debate is pointless because that is already a pattern in diver design and playstyle. That's how Riot does things, and that is that.

Best Ekko NA2 votes

{quoted}

"Vi's R deals a lot damage to enemies but can be used to run away"

...Wat? Vi's ultimate is a targeted ability that can only target enemy champions... I'm going to just assume you meant Vi's Q. that aside...

For something to qualify as an escape it must be effective at helping that champion escape a fight.

If you are already fighting (or caught) in melee range as Renekton or Vi, you will not be able to dash far enough away to properly escape a fight.

I'm not talking about how abilities should or shouldn't be used. I'm talking about how to use them effectively. Vi's Q is not an effective escape. Nether is Renekton's E. New Galio's dash and Gragas's E come to mind as well. They're either too short a range, or are too telegraphed and predictable / counterable to be reliable forms of escape.

Lee Sin's W is an escape, he can use it to immediately dash a significant distance away. Quinn's E functions well as an escape, because it both CC's her opponent and moves her a significant distance back. Without the CC though, it would only be mediocre as an escape.

All this is off topic though. Diana does not need escapes to function as a diver. And divers in general are not expected to have escapes. This whole debate is pointless because that is already a pattern in diver design and playstyle. That's how Riot does things, and that is that.

My bad, meant Q.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

There was a lot more to that comment besides a correction. Are you ignoring the points I've made?

EDIT: Nevermind, the discussion is over.

ZyniX1 votes

I disagree about VI and Renekton because you can use the dashes to escape over small walls but that situation isn't very common.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Diannas kit can do alot besides burst champions. But instagib trumps all. burst is the best thing to come out of her kit even though it was intended for sustained engage.

DunkinNoobs3 votes

Diana's winrate went up over 5% with this change and her playrate doubled, so I have a feeling you don't know what you're talking about.

MLDzXnRRR3 votes

Diana is a weird hybrid between Jax and Akali. Her only interesting abilities are her Q and E. This champ needs a real rework. She was better before they reworked all the AP items, but back then there were better burst AP champs than her. At this point she is just Ekko with no outplay potential that stat checks the enemy team.

Sire Hippington2 votes

It actually does work well with her current AP-burst kit, as the high as for 3AAs allows to proc the passive more reliable within your burst combo, and as burst assasin you don't really care if you can then get another AS-boost, all that matters are the first 3 AAs for the passive, after that either you or your target are dead anyway.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-08-08T19:21:44.782+0000)

It actually does work well with her current AP-burst kit, as the high as for 3AAs allows to proc the passive more reliable within your burst combo, and as burst assasin you don't really care if you can then get another AS-boost, all that matters are the first 3 AAs for the passive, after that either you or your target are dead anyway.

I actually agree with this to an extent, however Diana is a lot tankier than you think. You won't usually die after the first spell rotation unless you are going into the middle of the enemy team... and that's the part where having the old passive really mattered the most. After your full Q W R E R you could auto a lot more than 3 times while chasing the enemy back down, assuming they weren't dead yet. After the 3 autos from 2nd R now, it's like you are hitting a brick wall because you have negative attack speed without Nashors.

Whitakker2 votes

I think we're overlooking weaving the sped-up AA's in between the Q and the first R; at mid-game, where Diana's powerspike hits, I don't think its crazy to assume the following can be done with little difficulty:

Q-->RW-->3 aa-->E(now that the range has been increased; if it had stayed the same, then i don't think this would be viable)-->R-->3 aa

You're getting 2 rounds of fast aa's in that rotation, and if you're building CDR with Nashor's and/or Iceborn Gauntlet (seriously, why can't people see that IBG is great on her?), you may just have your next Q or R up by the time that rotation is done.

Funkin Dunkin1 votes

I actually felt the same way. If you don't pop your opponent within that first QRWR then your only fallback to proc that passive is E. Her passive should be stackable to make it more useful.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Poptart Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGPO10eH,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-08T17:57:57.063+0000)

If Diana's passive was a problem here's a better suggestion: switch her passive and W around. This sounds pretty weird at first but it makes the attack speed have more synergy with the rest of her kit.

Passive: Every 3 attacks orbs appear around Diana dealing damage to enemies and shielding her upon detonation. W ability: (Passive) Diana permanently gains attack speed. (Active) Diana's next 3 basic attacks deal increased damage, with the final attack lashing outwards in an arc in front of her.

Basically, remove the up front shield and turn her shield into a passive which requires enemy contact to activate. This will make it so that as "Bruiser" Diana, she's less durable. Add the attack speed and "aoe damage" to her ability which can be activated and has a cooldown so that Diana has a choice when to use it.

This would be a cool change, and it would certainly increase skill expression for Diana players.

But I'm pretty sure Riot designed Diana as an AP diver. And they are probably trying to push her further in that direction.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

Her W needs to be more spammable + weaker + less of an animation so it doesn't get in the way of autoing. That way Diana would be able to fully utility her passive.

deadlychuck1 votes

That's because you're not abusing the broken build that they opened up with it.

Build AD bruiser diana. YW

Glory ln Death1 votes

Meh, what do you know? You're just a poptart Riven. Get back in the cupboard where you belong!

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

What passive change?

Celebrimborr2 votes

Its the same but she gets Mana every time she hits it. The Attack speed was changed so that every time you use and ability you get attack speed scaling with her E

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Your entire post is misguided wtf? She feels exactly the same, it's just that she's actually a viable pick now.

She wasn't around a 50% win rate though?? What drugs are you on?? Her Win-rate was WELL below 50% for multiple patches, falling as low as 46% at times.

Diana always had mana problems, especially in lane and the new passive does an amazing job to circumvent that.

She's not a burst champion, she was just built as one because she was busted af upon release and itemization pushed her in that direction. She does an amazing job as a Duelist, and the new changes to her passive and other portions of her kit help support that.

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