Why do Keystones & Runes Need Damage? PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR…

Best Ekko NA · 2019-05-09T04:28:32.619Z

Ever since Season 7, I have not been able to comprehend why the balance team has taken the path towards adding more damage sources into the game. Nearly all of the balance problems appear to be culprit of these new "Keystones" and Runes. I usually make suggestions, but this time I'm looking for an answer. I know I'm never going to get an answer from ASK Riot because there are many questions asked, so I will post here and hopefully you can give some insight somewhere, whether here or elsewhere. Here in this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY67yCaGdno Joe stated that the new purpose was to "concentrate the power down into a more focused set of stats", why does damage have to be included into these choices? Isn't there a way to do a better job without adding damage to everything? Previously damage was added only from the old runes with some exceptions being able to increase your damage slightly in the offense tree. Now, not only did you "compensate" champions for the lack of runes by adjusting their stats, you added AP & AD scaling Keystones, along with runes that deal damage, and then you added the stat runes back into the game. At what point does enough damage become enough? What are you guys at Riot Games actually trying to accomplish? Please give some feedback so we can understand. Thank you. EDIT: Sorry for calling "New001" Joe, Meddler. Surprised no one corrected that. lol

Hot LeBlanc YuriMay 9, 201949 votes

Why do tank/sustain runes also give damage?

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 9, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hot LeBlanc Yuri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-09T09:44:20.728+0000)

Why do tank/sustain runes also give damage?

That wasn't the question tho. They asked why runes have any damage at all.

You can't expect to ask a dumbass question and expect me te Respond as if you asked me a real question.

ArtumisPrimeMay 9, 201923 votes

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you honestly incapable of understanding that OP was almost certainly saying not EVERY rune needs damage and they don't need as much damage as they have?

If you had read the body of their post you would see that this was, indeed, their stance. Instead, you read only the title and decided to make sarcastic remarks based upon only that. Grow up.

SarahRenoldsMay 9, 20191 votes

not every rune does damage.... theres guardian, fleet, phase rush, unsealed spellbook, klepto, glacial augment. 6 / 20 aint too bad

ArtumisPrimeMay 9, 20191 votes

Guardian, I agree. To an extent Fleet Footwork as well, but it partially goes with what I'm about to say.

The rest of those, barring Spellbook, are just a means to dealing more damage. It's like saying that CDR does not do damage. It doesn't directly, but it facilitates damage.

Spellbook is on both sides of this. It can be used offensively, defensively, or for utility strictly.

UmbraNocteMay 10, 20191 votes

If youre looking at it from that mentality, any stat gives you more damage. Helth and armor/mr let you stay alive in fights longer so you can deal more damage. Slows help you stick so you can do more damage. Sustain helps you stay alive so you can do more damage. Anything can be approached that way. If the issue is damaging keystones, keep it there. When you start trying to support your point using abstract ideas it turns into a cesspool of nonsensical nonsense. Not every keystone is damage focused, that is a fact. Every keystone is certatintly made to help you preform better in a fight somehow some way, but that is besides the point.

ArtumisPrimeMay 11, 20191 votes

If armor/MR/HP made you survive more than a fraction of a second longer, then I would agree with that. Those stats on their own, in the form of a singular item purchased, are useless. As an ADC, buying a Randuin's is not going to help you survive like it once did. You are just going to explode 0.2s later than you otherwise would have.

As for the rest of that, it is accurate. Slows help you stick so you can deal more damage. Sustain helps you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage. These are true statements.

Best Ekko NAMay 10, 20191 votes

I think some damage on one or two keystones is probably fine, depending on how it's done. For instance, flat damage based on level usually can be balanced relatively painlessly and is probably the best thing to use. Once AP / AD (adaptive especially is bad but I won't go into that for now) scalings are added it promotes heavy one sided snowballing (coin-flip games). Never should a Keystone or Rune have scalings added to them because of this. From a balancing perspective, it makes the least sense over all of the other options that could be implemented.

Which runes do you think are the most used and popular? Take a look at League of Graphs and you can find the answers:

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/runes

There's some shocking information present on that site. Many people here have argued "there are a lot of runes that don't do damage!", how popular are they? Notice how the use of anything that isn't damage or sustain is non-existent. The most popular Keystones overall (from Iron and up) are:

Conqueror
Electrocute
Summon Aery
Arcane Comet

None of the other ones even show up in the list of used Keystones except Aftershock if you toggle to Plat or Diamond (meaning they are rarely used compared to the others). Notice how every single one of these Keystones are the ones that deal damage? This is precisely the problem with the system, the Keystones and Runes that deal damage tend to overshadow the ones that do not. Once again, the biggest reason of this is the scaling damage Riot added on, which makes snowballing way too powerful of a strategy.

I don't want to rant on and on, but I firmly believe Riot needs to rework most of the Keystones and some of the Runes in an effort to trim some of the damage from them. Some damage is fine as I said earlier, but scaling damage is problematic and it seems to be the main component they're adding to all of the Keystones which deal damage.

ArtumisPrimeMay 10, 20191 votes

You're preaching to the choir with a lot of this (to the point that I'm not even sure you replied to the right person.)

Scaling isn't necessarily an inherently bad thing in runes/masteries though. It is the degree to which these numbers have increased since S6 that just boggle the mind. Like 5% increased damage done to targets under 50% HP, as the strongest possible option, is not necessarily a bad thing.

When you get (I'm just gonna call them masteries) masteries that are becoming strong additional passive abilities in and of themselves, it definitely presents a problem. The game wasn't built with these things in mind, and can't really support them without damage getting very far out of hand.

I think the absolute biggest problem is RIOT's mentality and design philosophy recently. There is too much damage, and the way they try to fix anything in this game is by giving weak champions more damage, and nerfing the defensive capabilities of strong ones. The discussed Riven nerfs are the epitome of this ideal. Increasing her shield CD, while decreasing her Q CD. Buffing her damage while nerfing her defenses.

Hot LeBlanc YuriMay 9, 20191 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hot LeBlanc Yuri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-05-09T14:12:52.845+0000)

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

--Disclaimer-- Keep in mind i'm making assumptions based on what they've said around tank balancing. This isn't my opinion on the matter, this is simply trying to figure out why they'd do it. I also don't have any contacts at riot so it might be flatout wrong. --Disclaimer--

1 Riot has stated tanks are easier to balance using Dmg numbers rather than defenses or utility. This most likely works the same for runes to an extent. Let's take aftershock Liss as an example: If they nerf the damage it'll become less attractive to her, but retain most of it's effectiveness on champs like Naut who doesn't rely on damage. Nerfing it's defensive stats would hurt both.

2 Some champs just need a mixture. While i personally run heavy offensive runes on singed, he's still a bruiser and needs to survive. Same goes for people who go with aftershock singed, they still need damage.

Hot LeBlanc YuriMay 9, 20191 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Vlada CutMay 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-09T10:10:47.507+0000)

That wasn't the question tho. They asked why runes have any damage at all.

You can't expect to ask a dumbass question and expect me te Respond as if you asked me a real question.

It was. ALL damage runes and keystones. INCLUDING tank keystones and runes, that also deal damage.

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=0000000000000003,timestamp=2019-05-10T20:41:20.791+0000)

It was. ALL damage runes and keystones. INCLUDING tank keystones and runes, that also deal damage.

"Why do Keystones & Runes Need Damage?"

they never specified they were talking about tank runes. Y'all assumed that and now i'm the one that's gotta burn on the stake? yeah, miss me with that.

xAcidikMay 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hot LeBlanc Yuri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-09T09:44:20.728+0000)

Why do tank/sustain runes also give damage?

You mean grasp? Because you'd lose every trade if you didn't have the damage. Unless you wanna buff the sustain substantially, but then it'd become a rune every champ can run, much the same as Aftershock.

Aftershock meanwhile, has very negligeble damage which I believe was just put in place to zone enemies off of you slightly when you lose your tank stats from Aftershock, and doesn't add any real damage to your combo unless you and the enemy are both extremely low, in which case they've been building Conqueror, PTA, or something else on you.

AetherArisingMay 9, 20192 votes

Shield Bash laughing in the background, continuing to make a lot of bruisers with self-shielding too op (cough Riven cough)

xAcidikMay 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Shield Bash laughing in the background, continuing to make a lot of bruisers with self-shielding too op (cough cough)

Riven's power has very, very little to do with Shield bash. But also, you're right, I was only looking at Keystones in my post because I was lazy.

But it has to be noted that League of Legends, in the end, is always going to be a game about which team drops more damage when it matters. This will either be accomplished through straight damage numbers, CCing the enemy team, healing your own team, shielding, picking better fights, etc. Runes that don't offer damage or means to get more damage (Glacial Augment, for example) just aren't used because of that. If Shield Nash just amplified your shields, for example think about how frustrating it would be to get a Riven (or, honestly, Sylas or Kench) down to 1 HP just for them to shield for their entire health bar, become unkillable, and flash on you.

MoonscourgeMay 9, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hot LeBlanc Yuri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-09T09:44:20.728+0000)

Why do tank/sustain runes also give damage?

Because Tanks that don't do damage are not viable & impossible to balance for any game. If you never get to kill anybody you won't enjoy playing as them & if you weren't a damage threat people could just ignore you. How would you fix that? By giving them more CC? But that would just amplify damage coming from your own team, given that they can now deal it freely, which would feel less satisfying to play AGAINST.

The "just remove damage lol" mindset the boards have is bullshit.

Also doesn't change the fact that 2 of the 3 most powerful Keystones don't even have damage on them lol

Cptn Han SoloQMay 9, 201912 votes

I expected riot to deliever on their so loved project with what they promised, interesting choices. If u have not noticed yet, we do not have those, we just go with the champions that can best abuse the currently strongest runes/items and run with it. Ur champion can not abuse a Keystone as good as others? Well to bad for you, looks like u are not going to be viable anytime soon. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

NadeokíMay 9, 20195 votes

That's called Meta and people can freely choose not to play such champions, are you just mad that there's certain champions that are seen more in pro play? Cuz that should just be normal, every ranked system has preference and a meta around it..

Cptn Han SoloQMay 9, 201912 votes

No i do not care much for what is done in proplay, since it has no aplication in my games at all.

My problem with the runes reforged system is quite simple, if runes are strong enough to be considered relevant u get an extra source of power for urself, that is not based on ur champions kit or items in the game. Certain champions have been adjusted for years to not be nightmares, while runes where just not that important. Balancing just champions and items itself is hard.

Now runes come around. Champion A has a good kit, decent items, but has very bad rune synergy. Champion B comes along, pretty similar in strenght before runes reforged, but champion B can abuse a certain keystone better than Champion A. CHampion A will never again see the light of day unless, Champion B is gutted out of existence, Champion A is overbuffed to stupid levels so he just needs 2 sources of power to compete, or the rune Champion B can abuse is guttet. Either case u delete a champion out of the game.

Takling the champion with the best keystone is only META because it gives u a third source of power, which by riots wish has to be a relevant source, and thus will always put u above anyone who can not excess that third source. Champions that can not do that will never be relevant as long as runes reforged exists or they are overbuffed into oblivion.

Midg3tMay 9, 20199 votes

{quoted}

That's called Meta and people can freely choose not to play such champions, are you just mad that there's certain champions that are seen more in pro play? Cuz that should just be normal, every ranked system has preference and a meta around it..

The problem is that meta champs are WAY stronger than those that are not meta. As for this

What about the current inspiration tree, I think clepto and spellbook are interesting choices

They are interesting choices, but weaker than other keystones are only usable on small number of champs.

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 9, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cptn Han SoloQ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-05-09T10:49:38.036+0000)

I expected riot to deliever on their so loved project with what they promised, interesting choices. If u have not noticed yet, we do not have those, we just go with the champions that can best abuse the currently strongest runes/items and run with it. Ur champion can not abuse a Keystone as good as others? Well to bad for you, looks like u are not going to be viable anytime soon. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Ah damn a reasonable comment.

I can atleast get behind this sentiment somewhat. I personally don't think runes achieved what was promised fully, but they're not as big of a failure as some make em out to be.

Technically you do have the option to play with whatever runes you want, and depending on the champ there could be multiple that work. I'm pretty sure all precision keystones (except conq) have about the same winrate for jinx for example. But at some point you'll need to conform, that point is a certain level of play. I personally still play ezreal with dark harvest, and have been since runes reforged release (rip og dark harvest), and tho i play in silver i can already feel how much easier klepto is. in general i feel like i can get away with a ton of shit tho.

But i also don't think it's actually possible at high elo. Something's always gonna be the best, and tons of people don't actually care about playstyle. only bout winning. once you reach a level where skill is incredibly close, that little bit just might tip the scales.

Cptn Han SoloQMay 12, 20191 votes

U kinda said it urself, we both know runes reforged didn't deliever, we just see the level of failure/success differently, which is normal since we do not have concrete data to back anything their.

Something is always gonna be the best indeed. I just think removing a whole dimension of balancing in runes will make it easier on the live design team. If a champion can only be strong based of their items and kits, everything can be balanced waaaaay easier.

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cptn Han SoloQ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2019-05-12T11:45:11.198+0000)

U kinda said it urself, we both know runes reforged didn't deliever, we just see the level of failure/success differently, which is normal since we do not have concrete data to back anything their.

Something is always gonna be the best indeed. I just think removing a whole dimension of balancing in runes will make it easier on the live design team. If a champion can only be strong based of their items and kits, everything can be balanced waaaaay easier.

On one hand i'd like to agree, but removing em also has drawbacks.

Certain playstyles do need runes to function properly. I think runes reforged did achieve what it promised on paper, just not in practice.

On paper you can try tons of fun wacky shit, in practice you're gonna be taking whichever works best most of the time.

AnateraMay 9, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AmAxq0Aq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-09T09:27:05.083+0000)

Because some champs don't really do anything other than damage.

Did you expect riot to just not give em runes?

LOL??? Have you considered that that was by design??? Not every character should be able to do everything. Jesus christ, is that obvious or what?

Jerry SeinfeIdMay 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

LOL??? Have you considered that that was by design??? Not every character should be able to do everything. Jesus christ, is that obvious or what?

could you please point out to me where exactly i said it wasn't by design? Where did i say some champions just happened to not have anything but damage by accident? every single thing about every single champion is by design in the end because the game doesn't just generate a new fucking character once in a while.

All i said was that they also need runes. Jesus fuckin christ ain't that obvious?

Why do Keystones & Runes Need Damage? PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR ALL OF US. @Meddler @Riot Balance Team

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