How to nerf crit while still having it in the game

Moonfall Saber·Oct 15, 2017·33 votes·1,489 views

New Base crit damage modifiers is 120% (currently 200% for those who didnt know)

new stat + 5% crit damage

+ 10% crit damage

+ 15% crit damage

+ 15% crit damage + 20% crit damage

can stay the same

new max crit damage with 100% crit is (120% base + 15% +15 % + 20% + 50%) = 220%

It you have 2 zeal items and an (current meta build) crit damage = (120% base + 15% + 15% + 50%) = 200%

Crit fixed for marksmen but what about crit for melee?

-10% crit damage removed on passive + 10% - 30% crit damage when flow is full +1% crit damage per % missing health reaching a new scary value while ulted. I think tryndamere is going to get a rework in the future anyway so we can make due.

Crit normalized and we can play the game again

42 Comments

ModThe DjinnOct 15, 201721 votes

I like the premise here, but I think you've also just flat nerfed all the items by a huge amount.

Currently a Zeal is a 20% chance of 100% bonus damage, meaning it's expected output over 100 hits is a 20% damage increase.

With your system Zeal is a 20% chance of 30% bonus damage, meaning its expected output over 100 hits is a 3% 6% damage increase.

I don't think the early-to-mid-game of most carries can survive a ~~nearly sevenfold~~ threefold decrease to the damage value of their items.

You might actually need to do something weird to fix this, like give champions a base Crit value that scales upwards, and letting items provide smaller crit amounts but bigger crit damage. Not frankly sure what my solution here would be, actually, but it's a really interesting avenue of thought. +1 for that.

notice me Sin piOct 15, 20172 votes

Currently a Zeal is a 20% chance of 100% bonus damage, meaning it's expected output over 100 hits is a 20% damage increase.

With your system Zeal is a 20% chance of 30% bonus damage, meaning its expected output over 100 hits is a 3% damage increase.

6% actually. But i still agree with the point you are making

ModThe DjinnOct 15, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=notice me Sin pi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zFE2EeG6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-10-15T15:43:29.967+0000)

6% actually. But i still agree with the point you are making

Derp. Good call. Need to wake up more before doing math!

hhaavviikkOct 15, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zFE2EeG6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-15T14:36:57.227+0000)

I like the premise here, but I think you've also just flat nerfed all the items by a huge amount.

Currently a Zeal is a 20% chance of 100% bonus damage, meaning it's expected output over 100 hits is a 20% damage increase.

With your system Zeal is a 20% chance of 30% bonus damage, meaning its expected output over 100 hits is a 3% 6% damage increase.

I don't think the early-to-mid-game of most carries can survive a ~~nearly sevenfold~~ threefold decrease to the damage value of their items.

You might actually need to do something weird to fix this, like give champions a base Crit value that scales upwards, and letting items provide smaller crit amounts but bigger crit damage. Not frankly sure what my solution here would be, actually, but it's a really interesting avenue of thought. +1 for that.

but shouldn't ADC's be weak early game? and mid game? considering they're late game monster hyper carries, ADC's used to be shit in the early game, supports would 1 s 1 them, junglers would 1 vs 1, EVERYONE would 1 vs 1 them, but manage to hold out till the ADC reaches late game and they destroy everyone, isn't that how it should be?

ModThe DjinnOct 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}but shouldn't ADC's be weak early game? and mid game? considering they're late game monster hyper carries, ADC's used to be shit in the early game, supports would 1 s 1 them, junglers would 1 vs 1, EVERYONE would 1 vs 1 them, but manage to hold out till the ADC reaches late game and they destroy everyone, isn't that how it should be?

That's how it WAS, but not necessarily how it should be.

Regardless, many ADCs already DO struggle a bit early game. This delays that power HUGELY, which is not good for game health, as these characters will be completely worthless for much of the game.

I'd rather flatten the curve slightly on both ends than have an entire class of champions that are ONLY good if the game reaches 5+ items.

HibekiOct 15, 20172 votes

I disagree with ADC's struggling when literally the entire game revolves around them. The only thing keeping ADC's from killing most teams is the fact most lack their ult early game. thats about it.

Tik115Oct 16, 20175 votes

I'm sorry but compare ADCs "Struggling" in S3 and "Struggling" now

Back then when you picked a late game champion you forfit the lane to early game champions Now you just pick late game ADCs because they can go even with early game focused carries and then outscale them

Back then powerspikes were 2nd or 3rd items, now its 1st item

Also We supports had to fucking work to keep ADCs safe early game as opposed to "I am an Ardent slave"

SSShutTheDuckUpOct 15, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zFE2EeG6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-15T14:36:57.227+0000)

I like the premise here, but I think you've also just flat nerfed all the items by a huge amount.

TBH it is needed

ModThe DjinnOct 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zFE2EeG6,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-10-15T20:37:52.485+0000)

TBH it is needed

If carries are out of control there are better ways to solve the problem than making item purchases feel bad.

HibekiOct 15, 20171 votes

Well Riot has obviously taken a dislike to nerfing ADC's an appropriate amount maybe they will be open to this instead -_-

Also crit items are stupidly cost efficient, a 30% damage increase AND being stat efficient?

SSShutTheDuckUpOct 16, 20174 votes

It is their itemization that breaks them, so targeting it sounds reasonable.

ModThe DjinnOct 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zFE2EeG6,comment-id=0001000200000001,timestamp=2017-10-16T07:17:20.900+0000)

It is their itemization that breaks them, so targeting it sounds reasonable.

Agreed. I just think there are healthier ways to target it that would solve the problem better than gutting their item purchases and making those purchases feel miserable while still keeping their late-game almost identical.

NineTailedMysticOct 16, 20171 votes

By targeting everything but the problem, apparently?

ModThe DjinnOct 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

By targeting everything but the problem, apparently?

Nah, I'm all for targeting items. I just think you need to find a way to flatten the curve while still making the items feel good to buy, which I don't believe this does properly.

NineTailedMysticOct 16, 20172 votes

ADCs shouldn't be carrying anything but their CS until 4 items. Right now, the two item 50% crit chance power spike is way too strong.

PokladnicaZlaOct 16, 20171 votes

Zeal items are under priced as they're now. This will work just fine.

PrimaquariusOct 15, 20178 votes

I like this, it can normalize ADCs who are supposed to scale anyway

Moooose2Oct 15, 20174 votes

Or, you could just understand that crit chance is just that. Chance. Maybe take a math class instead of playing league and learn how things work, instead of bitching on the boards about a fine mechanic.

Big Black CrocOct 15, 20179 votes

Fine mechanic? Crit is why adc's have retarded burst and one shot you with a couple of autos. No way is this a fine mechanic, its getting lucky with RNG.

Moooose2Oct 15, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Fine mechanic? Crit is why adc's have retarded burst and one shot you with a couple of autos. No way is this a fine mechanic, its getting lucky with RNG.

It's almost like if they build crit, sometimes they get 3 in a row off 10% and u get screwed, or sometimes they're useless and don't crit once on 80%. It's chance.

DauntOct 15, 201712 votes

Almost as if the mechanic is terrible

SkorchOct 15, 20171 votes

I would argue that chance doesnt make a mechanic terrible. Because when balanced it becomes more of a flat damage buff instead of chance as long as sustained damage is indeed sustained, and not overbearing.

DauntOct 16, 20171 votes

I really dislike anything that involves RNG but it's true that it can be balanced out. It's just that the current state of crit is ridiculous. I'd like if ADCs go back to being DPS instead of Burst per second dealers and have defined weaknesses. Burst damage, for example, without people saying UGH ASSASSINS/BURST MAGES ARE SO STRONG.

AirKingNeoOct 15, 20171 votes

Last I checked it was IE's critical damage boost.

KyunseiOct 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Or, you could just understand that crit chance is just that. Chance. Maybe take a math class instead of playing league and learn how things work, instead of bitching on the boards about a fine mechanic.

???

Bard R FridayOct 15, 20173 votes

or just make ie crit damage non unique so i can build 5 ie garen

DunkinNoobsOct 15, 20172 votes

I get that you hate crit but these are some of the most heavy handed nerfs I've ever seen. Legitimately no one would buy crit anymore if it worked like this.

Moonfall SaberOct 15, 20174 votes

Then you are building for early game and not late. Crit is meant to be a late game stat however it's so easy to rush an IE and take that chance to practically one shot that you buy the item anyways.

DunkinNoobsOct 15, 20173 votes

Your new crit is worse at literally every stage of the game, but far, far worse early. No one would buy it. Not even Yasuo would buy this garbage. Even 100% crit is worse in your system than it is in live, which is absurd given how much you gutted early crit.

HaIlMonitorOct 15, 20172 votes

Crit isn't balanced because its basically luck until the ADC gets 70%+. I dont know how much top you play, but nothing is more annoying then a level 3 trade with a Tryne who get 2 or 3 crits from his 35% in 4 autos. Or even 1v1 vs another ADC with both IE and a zeal item all just comes down to who crits 1 extra time generally. Not really skill, nor ability plays into luck, and luck shouldn't decide games.

statelesskillerOct 15, 20171 votes

godFUCKINGDAMNIT had a tryndamere crit 3 times in a row started off at like 5% crit, then crit, then crit. tilted me off the face of the earth :/ i lost the early game off that

PrinceOfStormsOct 16, 20174 votes

Your new crit is worse at literally every stage of the game

Thatstheidea.jpg

notice me Sin piOct 15, 20172 votes

i dont agree with the numbers, but the concept design is right on point; as someone else stated, this is just flat out nerfing all the items to oblivion. Applying your concept on the crit items would make ADC scaling soo much healthier

5000000000000000Oct 16, 20172 votes

Like others said already, tuning might be off, but I think it's a good direction. The nerfs to the crit items should be counterbalanced with some buff.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 16, 20172 votes

I agree with the scaling crit but the starting crit is reaaaally low. If it was just 150% with all those item's crit damage bonuses a little less than doubled I'd be on board. (Zeal items at 25%, Brawler's at 10%, Zeal and Cloak at 15%, Essence Reaver at 25% as well)

Just leave max crit damage at 250%. In your example even with 4 crit items to include IE it only hits 220%. That's a pretty massive nerf.

With the above it'd go 150% +25% +25% = 200% like it is now. With Essence or IE it hits 225% and 250% respectively.

Also for Yasuo and Trynd... Yasuo is fine, this'll force him to actually build crit if he wants crit damage (instead of the bruiser yasuo we have now). Trynd should get +1% crit damage for every 1% crit chance from his fury. He only gets max 35% afterall.

AirKingNeoOct 15, 20171 votes

You need to increase the critical chance per item drastically, and probably small crit damage buffs here and there. 120% AD per Crit is a heavy nerf that needs some equalizing.

This actually solves the issue of building non-crit to cheese an early game and still scaling well because you bought PD IE.

Also rework Essence Reaver into a 3000 gold item for 60 AD, 20% CDR, 20% Crit (and whatever critical damage) so it doesn't make Xayah and Sivir insane late game and give Lucian no late game options.

SnowplosionOct 15, 20171 votes

So like nerf the crit and add some other stats, yeah?

Gear5LuffyOct 15, 20171 votes

As long as it is RNG will never be balanced enough either to strong or to weak maybe add something like Jhins Passive or Cait Headshot where u know the time you will crit(do extra dmg) like an indicator so u play around it

DemainaNyxOct 16, 20172 votes

Or Ashe even, where the first auto against someone is normal damage, but everything after that is more damage than normal. That way Vayne Ult Tumble auto with IE, RFC, and Static Shiv wouldn't instantly pop anyone any more. Same with Twitch since his first auto wouldn't take half your health because of randomness.

Maybe even scale it so it does something like first auto is 100%, and every sub-sequence auto adds an additionally 10% damage up to 200%. Maybe have it start with 130% if you have IE up to 250% or have it add 20% additional every auto. Jhin would be the one exception possibly, but that would be something to think about.

Hèntaî Oct 16, 20171 votes

Yasuo Already has crit reductions in his Q and Passive

Edit: misread it Im dumb. :|

PrinceOfStormsOct 16, 20171 votes

Or just make building crit reduce your bonus AS and building AS reduce your crit. Make champions basically like Jhin, where if they're going to do a lot of damage with crit they're not going to be attacking particularly quickly, and if they're going to have high AS they aren't going to be critting.