Not banning Vayne at this point is ALMOST considered trolling

Moonfall Saber·Jan 20, 2018·160 votes·5,738 views

Because she has a sky high win rate and is hella easy to play.

Now we can upvote again [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

164 Comments

Velzard of KozJan 20, 201823 votes

Because there wasnt enough shitposts. Everyone gets that Vayne is a problem.

Moonfall SaberJan 21, 201856 votes

correction. Everyone but riot knows Vayne is a problem

DisembarkJan 21, 201826 votes

Except there are already Vayne nerfs and targons nerfs coming.

/thread

Jinx HunterJan 21, 201816 votes

{quoted}

Except there are already Vayne nerfs and targons nerfs coming.

/thread

Lets be honest here. We all know the Vayne "nerf" is going to be another meme of a joke like the -3 AD one was and not really do a damn thing.

SchàdenfreudeJan 21, 201826 votes

I don't think the problem is that nerfs are on the way; the problem is that it took Riot too long to notice that Vayne was overpowered.

Jinx HunterJan 21, 201812 votes

{quoted}

I don't think the problem is that nerfs are on the way; the problem is that it took Riot too long to notice that Vayne was overpowered.

Vayne will always be overpowered as long as she has that kit. There are not enough number nerfs in the world that you could give to make her balanced and still playable; like Yasuo. To make her balanced and fair, you would have to rework her. She is one of the first pure cancer champs conceived. She is the Riven of marksmen and that is not a good thing.

Electro522Jan 21, 20181 votes

How would you rework her though?

The "problem" that everyone is referring to in her kit is her true damage......unfortunately, this 1 thing is her entire identity. She is the definitive "tank slayer", meant to churn down tanks faster than any other ADC.

Take a look back at every other VGU Riot has done......they have been able to keep the identity of every champ, but fix the problems the champ had. In Vayne's case, her identity is the problem. You either need to come up with some very clever way to keep her identity, or make a completely new champion.

And if you say that VGU champs are new champions, an identity is different from a theme......at least in a game development standpoint. Galio's identity is a magic absorbing tank, that can turn said magic against you. His theme changed from a broken, forgotten statue, to basically a Demacian Superhero. Get what I'm saying?

Sp33d Zer0Jan 21, 20185 votes

I would probably push her even more towards the tank shredder. Buff her silvers bolts, but do one of the following

Remove damage on Q making it primarily a repositioning spell. Maybe let it give a VERY short AS steroid with a slightly longer CD.
Remove the bonus AD on her ult

Both of these changes would help eliminate a huge amount of that up front burst she can do. But at the same time, I think Rageblade vayne is the most balanced.

Electro522Jan 21, 20186 votes

But then you run into the problem of her being completely unstoppable in the top lane, at least in the laning phase.....and we all know how much people feel about top lane right now.....especially when Vayne goes up there.

She would become the next Teemo or Quinn; being able to shut down tanks or juggernauts just fine in lane, but not being able to compete with any other marksman in the game. Than come mid to late, to where teamfights start happening, she becomes completely useless except to help shred down the front line.

This is what happens when a champs identity becomes the problem. If you go too hard into that identity, you make the champ far too niche. If you don't, than you end up with Mordekaiser.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 21, 20181 votes

That's fair; however I think you could fix some of that by reworking her e/ removing it.

You take away her hard CC, and some of her bonus burst damage and you get someone that you can potentially stick onto as a top laner.

Electro522Jan 21, 20184 votes

So then wouldn't it be better to just rework her E, and remove the extra AD she gets on her ult?

Her ult already alters her Q, so, as compensation for removing the AD (which is pretty massive) whatever this new E will be, her ult could alter that as well.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 21, 20186 votes

So you want Vayne to have, no hard CC, a below average repositioning spell, and no AA steroids besides a minor AS buff?

Sorry why would I ever pick this ADC?

FefnilJan 21, 20185 votes

To shred tanks with consistent %max hp true damage.

Tomoe GozenJan 21, 20182 votes

Kog does pretty much the same with a 1/2 item spike and he doesn't even have to position himself correctly, just fire away. So Vayne wouldn't really be an ideal of a pick even there, if you need more skill to play her like Kog, whereas Kog is better than her in any regard due to his AS steroids and W that actually shreds tanks without having to apply a 3-hit passive on them.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 22, 20182 votes

Except that kogmaw gets blocked pretty hard by adaptive helm. There is no counter to vaynes % max hp TRUE damage.

You sacrifice long range with no mobility magic damage for short range mid-high mobility true damage. That sounds pretty good to me.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 22, 20184 votes

Guess what kog is toxic and overpowered as well. Gut him until he gets reworked.

Moonfall SaberJan 21, 20182 votes

Nooooooooo. riot buffed her silver bolts and look what happened. % Health True damage will never ever ever be balanced because there is no counter at all to it. If anything to make her a propper tank shredder make it deal damage equal to the enemies armor lol.

Jinx HunterJan 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VrRovT6V,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-21T04:53:19.900+0000)

How would you rework her though?

The "problem" that everyone is referring to in her kit is her true damage......unfortunately, this 1 thing is her entire identity. She is the definitive "tank slayer", meant to churn down tanks faster than any other ADC.

Take a look back at every other VGU Riot has done......they have been able to keep the identity of every champ, but fix the problems the champ had. In Vayne's case, her identity is the problem. You either need to come up with some very clever way to keep her identity, or make a completely new champion.

And if you say that VGU champs are new champions, an identity is different from a theme......at least in a game development standpoint. Galio's identity is a magic absorbing tank, that can turn said magic against you. His theme changed from a broken, forgotten statue, to basically a Demacian Superhero. Get what I'm saying?

No, the problem goes beyond just her true damage. The problem is her only weakness and counter play is her fucking up. Just like Riven, but unlike Riven. Vayne is far easier to play.

Electro522Jan 21, 20184 votes

I disagree. She has very short range. When Cait is in a decent spot, Vayne doesn't exist.

And for Riven....silences. It's why Garen has always been a good pick into her. And yes, I know, really good Riven's can work around Garen, but the fact of the matter still stands.

Anyway, you never did answer my question. You only stated another problem.

How would you rework her?

InfernapeJan 21, 20183 votes

Her range isn't actually that short. It's pretty much average. Xayah, Kindred, Lucian and Sivir all have AA ranges that are below Vayne's. Vayne's kit allows her to play around her range as she gets permanent MS moving towards enemy champions, a short CD dash, and a disengage tool.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 22, 20182 votes

"very short range" 550. Very short. Meanwhile every fuckin melee in the game. What a fuckin bullshit excuse to this abomination.

CosnirakJan 21, 20182 votes

But that deserves a very different thread if that's the point.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 21, 201813 votes

You do know the -3 AD nerf dropped her winrate like 4%

Jinx HunterJan 21, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VrRovT6V,comment-id=00050000000000000001,timestamp=2018-01-21T03:01:37.574+0000)

You do know the -3 AD nerf dropped her winrate like 4%

Not enough. She should never have above a 48% win rate EVER. I would go as far as saying she shouldn't have anything above 45%. But I just hate her, so If i never had to see that POS champ again I would be happy. Same with Gnar.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 21, 20189 votes

So because you have a massive bias against the champion, a 4% win rate is not enough of a drop, and having anything above 48% win rate means she is imbalanced?

ShinjusukeJan 21, 20182 votes

The point he's making, and you're failing to understand, is that her win rate, like all "high skill" champions, should never be 50% or higher.

If a "high skill" champion has a win rate higher than 50%, it is almost always because they are overpowered or overtuned.

You cannot have a champion with an "above average skill requirement" that has an "above average win rate". The simple fact of their above average skill requirement means that for over 50% of players, they should be too difficult to win consistently with, thus lowering the win rate to below 50%. There's really no way around this.

That's the point he's making. He even followed up by adding that due to their bias they believe it should be even lower than 48%, but they're entirely correct: No "high skill" champion should have a winrate outside the 45-48% range, because if it is higher than 48%, it is almost a guarantee something about them is overpowered at that time.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 22, 20182 votes

Aurelion Sol is an incredibly high skill cap champion who is only truly balanced if he's at around a 52-53% win rate.

Pick rate matters a ton on high skill cap champions. If a character has a high pick rate with a high win rate, you know it's a problem. A high win rate with a low pick rate on a high mechanical champion means that the successful one tricks are wrecking which is how it SHOULD be.

Janna Me FiddleJan 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VrRovT6V,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-01-21T00:09:34.330+0000)

correction. Everyone but riot knows Vayne is a problem

Even in ESports.

Vayne picked by Jhin Air against World Champs, They nearly won until Vayne made a catastrophic error.

Vayne picked by H2K against Fnatic, Vayne almost one shots someone which causes a panicked collapse by Fnatic, Vayne wins.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 21, 20187 votes

She ALREADY has had nerfs listed on the PBE for over a week.

ƒrostγJan 21, 20188 votes

In what universe is vayne easy to play?

ŚhunpoJan 21, 201817 votes

{quoted}

In what universe is vayne easy to play?

In the universe that she only has to do basic kiting to win the game.

SooFr0styJan 21, 20186 votes

She is a pure auto attack champion they has 550 attack range. Her range of influence is by far the smallest for any adc.

ŚhunpoJan 21, 201811 votes

{quoted}

She is a pure auto attack champion they has 550 attack range. Her range of influence is by far the smallest for any adc.

Except her Tumble seems to increase her attack range and Vayne has NO weak phase in the game rn.

SooFr0styJan 21, 20186 votes

No it doesn't. She just moved. I technically have more attack range on Darius if I flash then.

IncubusReaperXJan 21, 20183 votes

[sg-miss-fortune]

T4underboltJan 21, 20182 votes

You're funny. Vayne tumble increases next auto attack range by 25-50. That's first thing. Second her auto attack matches with range of most ADCs.

SooFr0styJan 21, 20182 votes

It doesn't and you still dont understand her zone of influence is lower. Seeing how she only autos

Also anti-auto attack items have to be the most in game.

T4underboltJan 21, 20182 votes

It does. One of the best vayne one trick Gosu has confirmed it long ago and many times on his streams saying it is actually a bug that wasn't fixed. Her influence zone doesn't matter because she can 2 shot squishes with 2 items no matter if behind or ahead.

SooFr0styJan 21, 20181 votes

The whole two shotting squishies with two items is not a trait specifically to her lol

Thats an ADC problem.

T4underboltJan 22, 20182 votes

I never seen Tristana 2 shot me me with those 2 items. And Tristana is busted and too strong as well. Vayne might have lost her Q DMG crit but the compensation buff was unnecessary. She should have barely any scaling on Q or none at all and it should be just repositioning tool. On the other hand her ultimate should be packed with additional power so she is stronger with ultimate as it matches her identity. Currently she has power packed in both abilities for no reason.

TylerBrahJan 21, 20182 votes

"Except her Tumbole seems to increase her attack range"

No wonder this board thinks Vayne is OP. The users on here literally know nothing about her kit.

Lmfao.

ŚhunpoJan 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

"Except her Tumbole seems to increase her attack range"

No wonder this board thinks Vayne is OP. The users on here literally know nothing about her kit.

Lmfao.

Tumble*

No. The issue with the Tumble is that it appears to grant her bonus range. This of course is when you disregard the distance traveled when using Tumble. What I'm saying is that she appears to get bonus attack range upon Tumbling.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 21, 201814 votes

This is false. Quinn, Lucian, Kindred, Sivir all have less AA range.

So do Jinx, Xayah, and Kog, but they have ways of artificially increasing it.

Just because she doesn't have ways to attack outside of 550 doesn't mean she's weak. She has a perpetual movement speed steroid when chasing and a low CD dash.

SooFr0styJan 21, 20184 votes

She has the lowest effective range.

Quinn has her Q Kindred literally gets ranged per every couple stacks. Xayahs passive and Q make her shoot farther.

Please understand I wrote effective range.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 21, 20183 votes

Yes, and writing effective range you failed to take into account the other things in Vayne's kit that justify the 550 range AND help her mitigate it.

Dorans PantsJan 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

She has the lowest effective range.

Quinn has her Q Kindred literally gets ranged per every couple stacks. Xayahs passive and Q make her shoot farther.

Please understand I wrote effective range.

Well, it´s just that the "effective range" argument is complete bs outside out laning phase, and even there long range poke lost a lot of value since early sustain is so easily available. In fact, it rather supports the idea of vayne being a noob-friendly adc, because the problem i see with many bad adcs is, that they never commit to a fight. Being the main dps role in the game, there comes a point in the fight, where you just have to go in and hope that your support/team peels for you, but many adcs with long effective range simply won´t do that, because they are too busy sitting in the backline tickling the enemy with their qs.

so what would I rather have when my adc is inexperienced? An adc like varus that will most certainly miss his ult (skillshot), won´t commit to a fight and stay back trying to hit his q (also skillshot) or an adc like vayne that can´t wait to jump into 5 people (because they are all a bunch of monkeys trying to get pentas) and just has to keep auto-attacking, since her only skillshot does not even contribute to her dps, while she get shielded and healed and is also invisible half the time.

And maybe she overcommits and dies, that happens. But compared to other adcs, who have skillshot or gimmicks that an inexperienced player can fuck up or an experienced enemy can abuse, vayne will have put out way more dps and contributed to the fight a hell of a lot more than any of them, because of how foolproof her kit actually is and how it rewards you for playing hyper-aggressive.

people still memorize vayne as this high skill ceiling adc, who gets bullied early and has to scale. Who has a tough time in teamfights due to her single target dmg, but all these issues have been solved a long time ago. You don´t have to suffer through a terrible laning phase, when sustain is everywhere and your counters are nowhere to be found. You don´t have to worry about scaling, when lategame begins at 20mins and all your items are buffed and made cheaper and you don´t have to worry about single target dmg when teamfights only last 4 seconds and everyone is one-shotting each other.

Tomoe GozenJan 21, 20183 votes

Enemy team being monkeys is not a valid reason why Vayne is strong. If Vayne's playstyle dictates that she has to go in and fight while other Marksmen do not (because of the lack of escapes and maneuverability), it stands to reason that Vayne cannot succeed in poking people due to her power all being in her AAs and a steroid ult while others can work with poking first.

Wraith SennaJan 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

In the universe that she only has to do basic kiting to win the game.

and then position well, farm well in lane and not get dumped on etc. all she does is auto attack yes, but her range aint that huge.

KnalxzJan 21, 20187 votes

After years of being told Vayne requires high mechanical depth to do well with, when I got on the PBE and tried her out myself I found out that there are alot of lying Vayne mains out there. Granted Gosu is amazing with her and other champions but you don't have to be a master at dodging to blow up your enemies with Vayne.

Her only ability with any actual depth is her Q and that is a small puddle were talking about here. Her W is a passive, her E you use in specific situation like when an enemy is near a wall or you want them away form you and her ult is just a steroid. Usable in the literally every situation she's in. Even her passive is incredibly basic which is "Run at enemies faster!"

Her level of "skill" is probably the lowest of any ADC since her only real flaw is her range, which is even still an advantage against melee champions which is half the roster. Not to mention Quinn also faces the issue of range and you don't see people giving her praise for being a dangerous CQC fighter despite the fact she literally flies into her enemies with 2 of her abilities.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 22, 20182 votes

At this point it's just a myth how "hard" adcs are to play. Two years of constant powercreep and there is no difficulty behind it anymore. A few seasons ago when adcs REALLY got oneshot by everyone and their mother yes. Now? Tell me how hard it is geting twice your health bar in shields and healing standing in front of a camille just rightclicking her to death in melee range. Same for jax and anyone else if not ridiculously fed.