Boards›Gameplay

Riot you really need to start working on truly defining what a "Support" is.

Hay5eed··2 votes·745 views

When you think a support what do you usually think of? Me? I usually think of a tank that brings lots of cc to a fight, like Leona. Others would think of someone that can buff allies and pass out heals, like Soraka.

But if you are playing a support and the major contribution that your champion beings to the team is not tankiness, or cc, or heals/buff, but instead DAMAGE then you are NOT a support. This is no longer a support and ADC bot lane, this is a duo bot lane.

And this is a problem Riot. Maybe not in pro LCS (I don't watch them so IDK) but it IS a problem in solo queue. People pick mages that have like, 1 form of cc, pick up a spell thiefs edge, poke for gold, and then just build raw AP. This is not a support. This is a mid-lane mage that sits in bot lane.

A support is either supposed to create good picks for their ADC by using forms of CC, or contribute to their ADC's survivability by healing them in lane, or giving them other tools to help them CS, gapclose, or make escapes. By this new method of "supporting" where you do a crap ton of damage and let your ADC pick up the kill the actual supports are being squeezed out.

If you have the Red team which has...idk Draven ADC with Brand support and Blue team has MF with Soraka support then Blue team is going to have a difficult time because Red team is outputing so much damage that Blue teams support can't keep up. Sure Red team may not have a heal or a shield but does that really matter when the enemy team is out of pots at half health and Soraka is running out of mana?It's like having the jungler constantly camp your lane.

At this point what is to stop me from saying "f*ck it, I'm playing Darius support"? Or Riven support? Or Yasou support?

And in a way you helped this issue with the mid year mage update. I kinda like what you did with Unholy grail with the whole blood charges thing cause it enables supports with heals to be more viable. But you also defined that mid-lane mages should have flat mana items with no mana regen and that supports should have mana regen items, since they need it to help their carries right? Well what is happening instead is that mid-lane mages are going bot, grabbing a mana regen item, then grabbing damage and while they may not have as much damage as their traditional mid lane build, they also have an ADC to help clean up.

I really feel like this is NOT how a support is supposed to play like.

14 Comments

Lovely Pants5 votes

We've already established this pretty clearly, I think.

Support is a position, not a class of champions.

Most champions who do well in the support role are what Riot has loosely been calling enchanters, control mages, or tanks. Riot has no intention of making the role exclusively describe champions which are more utility based. This has never really been their vision of the game, with the role arising from refinement of player knowledge about better gold distribution strategies rather than by initial design.

There is nothing new about the struggle between balancing damage against utility in the duo lane. I would personally argue having champions in the role that bring more emphasis to this element is fairly necessary to introduce variety in the system and help prevent stagnation between tank-like supports and sustain/buff supports.

Hay5eed1 votes

However Riot actively classifies champions by giving them labels. Braum for example is classified as a "support" and his secondary role is "tank".

I understand that you don't want the game to become stagnant but for the sake of fairness and the enjoyment of all who play the game SOME things have to remain the same.

What if Jungle rearranged itself every game?

Also we do have plenty of cool supports catagories. Tanks- Leona, Braum, etc. They are hard to take down and bring CC to a teamfight. Healers - Soraka, Sona, etc. They are pretty easy to take down. They keep their adc healthy in lane. Pick- Blitzcrank, Thresh, maybe even Naut. They can vary in their tankiness, they create "picks" or easy kills for their ADC by moving those targets out of position.

But now we also have a fourth option Damage- Literally anyone. The only thing they bring is damage.

This is not a support.

John 13 342 votes

Sounds like more ADC whining because they just expect the support to be a full-time babysitter for them.

Hay5eed2 votes

Actually, I'm a support main. I main Bard, Leona, and Thresh and I'm tired of seeing Annies and Vel Koz's and Brands crap in bot lane. You're not a support. GTFO

Hellpyre1 votes

If you're playing Leona, why aren't you pushing out the kill lane supports? If you're playing Bard, are you playing defensively, or are you still trying to poke out the Brands and Annies of the world while they have mana up?

Hay5eed1 votes

Bard I usually play defensive. But onto Leona. I walk to lane. Support is in brush and pokes for a significant amount of damge, about 1/8 of my health, which is really good for level 1. The "support" continues to dance their ass in and out of brush trying to poke at me and my carry. I have a choice here. 1.) Plant ward in brush so we can avoid the poke damage, but this just means that they hop out of brush and just use the rest of the lane to poke, and it exposes river as a weakness since I can't ward it so now we can be ganked by Jungler. 2.) Attempt to walk into brush and force them out. Results in MORE poke damage. Chances are I can't catch up to them and they will just kite me out. Because of how me and my ADC are low on health and out of pots we now have to play defensively, which makes it harder for my ADC to cd, and also means that we aren't looking for kills, which starves me of gold.

21028037DEL12 votes

If they lock in AP supports, pick Morgana/Braum/Nami/Sona. You can out-poke (Sona/Nami), out-heal (Sona/Nami), block damage and stuns (Morgana/Braum), and tank their damage (Braum).

There are Support counter-picks for those champions. As long as the enemy bot lane doesn't get kills, they will be useless for the entire mid-game. (Also, Brand and Annie are certainly viable Supports as they both have easy-to-hit stuns.)

Hay5eed1 votes

How come one EVERY discussion about a champions balance there is always ONE guys that just talks about counter picks?

Counter picking is not always possible. What if you pick your support first? What if it is blind pick?

The entire champion rooster cannot and will not be balanced on the idea of counter picking, riot has confirmed this. They have activley said that every champion should be able to do good on their own and no champions viability should be based on how they counter another champ.

So why mention counter picking?

This isn't even about a particular champion. This is about a play style that is really toxic to the community (no one likes being deleted by a support) and harmful to the environment of the game (ap mages going bot lane are squeezing out an entire rooster of support champions).

21028037DEL11 votes

{quoted}

How come one EVERY discussion about a champions balance there is always ONE guys that just talks about counter picks?

? Because counter-picking is a part of champ select and, thus, a part of the game.

Counter picking is not always possible. What if you pick your support first? What if it is blind pick?

You're right. It's not always possible. And you have to account for this when you are in champ select. If it is blind pick, you know going in that you have no idea what the enemy is choosing. Therefore, your best bet is pick a Support that complements your ADC. For example, if your ADC is Ashe (low mobility, instant stun), it would be wise to choose follow-up CC/damage in an engage if she ults (Leona, Brand, Nautilus), disengage if she gets engaged upon (Janna, Morgana), or, preferably, a support who can do both (Thresh, Annie, Nami).

If you are first pick, you have to account for this as well.

Also, are you looking at the enemy champ select? Perhaps they have chosen their ADC, but not their Support. If they have Lucian, for example, it is best to take champions that prevent him from dashing (Morgana, Nautilus) and to not pick champions that leave you useless if you miss some CC (Thresh's hook, Bard's Q, Zilean's double-Q, etc.).

The entire champion rooster cannot and will not be balanced on the idea of counter picking, riot has confirmed this. They have activley said that every champion should be able to do good on their own and no champions viability should be based on how they counter another champ.

To be fair, no champion is good "on their own," it's a team game. I never defined the Support role as a role of counter picks, but you have to be aware of what you can and cannot do when you choose a champion. If you choose Bard into a Morgana, for example, she can shield your stun/damage and push you under tower with her W + ADC's wave clear. You have to be aware of that going into the match-up.

So why mention counter picking?

This isn't even about a particular champion. This is about a play style that is really toxic to the community (no one likes being deleted by a support) and harmful to the environment of the game (ap mages going bot lane are squeezing out an entire rooster of support champions).

Look, I've been where you are. I've climbed through the ranks in 3 seasons of playing this game and I've dealt with AP mages in the bot lane for just as long. Eventually, you learn how to play around them. You let them blow their cooldowns and then quickly dish out some damage. You find windows of opportunity and make them count.

You also have to keep in mind that there are some games that weren't meant to be won. That's just how it is. The best you can do is work on your lane as much as you can and then transition out of laning phase in the mid-game to help other lanes. Simple as that.

If you find AP-mage Supports over-bearing, them why not try one? If you don't want to stop playing other Supports, learn to play around them (Morgana is a ridiculous counter to them). Play Bard or Soraka and sit passively and heal; after they use their spells (which hopefully you have dodged), run forward and Q + Auto-attack and back off. Wait for a jungle gank. Considering I main both Bard and Soraka, I've done this for quite some time and it does work.

So, here's hoping it works for you. :)

Friendly Ram1 votes

Yas support has alot of utility especially as tank yas. But yeah i get what you're saying.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

any champion that can sit in a bot bush and afk

AsphodelNext1 votes

Like, you can feel that way all you want. That's fine. I feel like top lane should be for tanks instead of bruisers, that jungle is no place for an ADC, that top lane is no place for an ADC, and that mid lane is no place for an ADC... You get the drift. But, that doesn't stop those champions from being good in those positions; the meta has shifted so that they are. And you just have to deal with people playing champions that work in roles you feel they shouldn't work in.

What a support is is well defined. A support is anyone who can come bot lane, not take CS, ward the map(and even this is questionable with trinkets and cheap pinks; it should be everyone's job), and help the ADC survive and keep getting CS until mid-late game when they start to reach their power spike. You might not agree with that definition, and feel it needs an extra sentence or two talking about "doesn't do too much damage" and "multiple forms of CC", but that's all you need to do to queue up in the support role.

Personally, I feel good when I help my ADC get a kill. Like, when I land a Lux, follow up with ult, and my ADC pops the last shot, that to me feels just as fun, if not more, as stunning them for 3 more seconds while my ADC takes a few more shots, or healing up my ADC while they slowly whittle the enemy ADC down in a duel to the death. I feel like I'm helping my ADC, and that's really what the core of the support role is.

BluePolarizer1 votes

A support champ is simply a non-csing champion who is still useful without gold.

Let's take another MOBA, since you can't wrap your head around the concept that supports can contribute in different ways: in DOTA, full damage mages, assassins and even some traditional melee autoattack carries (like Naga Siren) can be played support. All they need to do is not take cs, ward and be useful with only wards, boots and bracers. Would Leshrac or Nyx be better mid-lane with gold? Debatable. But they can also be played support.

Same here. Lulu is support, but can play mid or top if your team is comfortable with the bulk of the damage being on the ADC. What is the problem with Brand or Vel'Koz support then, if your mid has utility?

In fact, to prevent this sort of rigid thinking, Riot has already decided to completely dismantle the current classification system and make a new one, where support as a class no longer exists.

Hay5eed1 votes

Oh trust me, I can wrap my head around the idea of "supports can contribute in different ways". As matter of fact I know that supports can contribute in A LOT of ways.

Locking down the enemy team with cc. Healing low health allies. Providing buffs to allies (MS, AS, damage) Debuffing the enemy team (lower MR or AR, blinding etc)

I have no problem with a support that can do any of the above or even contribute in so other unmentioned way. What I have problem with is when the only thing that you bring to your team is damage. How does that make you a support? You are not supporting anyone. I might go Vayne support next game (at least she has a point and click knock back with a conditional stun).

I've used several off meta supports, but my off meta supports have at least two forms of utility in their kit.

Xerath ? Easy to land slow and a good stun. Build item 3116 and your ult can save allies by slowing enemies Shen ? Taunt, hard AF to land slow, but also have a dodge field AND a global teleport ult with a shield that can save allies Chogath ? Knock up and silence Maokai ? Ward ability, slow+knock back, root, and an ult to reduces damage taken Sion ? Knock up/slow, slow+armor reduction, and a stun on ult. Passive grants him more presence if he gets deleted in team fights. Nasus ? Slow+AS slow, Armor reduction AOE Zac ? Knock-ups, slows, plus passive helps him if he gets deleted

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Hay5eed

Can't Azir have ONE friend?
Story, Art, & Sound135 comments
135
votes
Sion's unique interaction with Yasou
Gameplay78 comments
107
votes
Players going against Pyke should see their execution marker
Gameplay42 comments
56
votes
Why can't we up the ban amount to 5 per team?
Gameplay49 comments
46
votes
It's never going to happen, but animations on several champions needs to be slowed waaayyyy down.
Gameplay78 comments
31
votes
Orianna buff idea
Gameplay26 comments
21
votes