What champions not designed by CT would make people cry if they were CT designs

IP Masquerena·Oct 15, 2018·5 votes·2,340 views

Let's have a fun thread, let's look at champions that aren't designed by CT and nobody is complaining about, then think how the boards would react if they were designed by him. Rule of thumb, no change to abilities to say "this is how it would look as a CT design", just how they are now.

My picks would be Orianna and Garen.

Boards: "She's too safe, no clear weaknesses, too much damage once she's fed, no cooldowns, how can I lane against her if I can't all in her whenever I want instead of baiting her E?"

Boards: "Who thought it's a good idea to give him free healing, no cooldowns and no mana? He can take bad trades, afk 10 seconds and boom, he won the trade and has no counterplay to it, and he's all point and click"

Let's see what others think :p

44 Comments

DuskDaUmbreonOct 15, 20185 votes

Is "all of them" a valid answer?

haaaaaaalpOct 15, 20183 votes

Don't really think the name of the designed matters as much as the kit of the champion. Orianna or garen as they are now would get the same amount of qq no matter who the designer was (btw who did design those?).

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20182 votes

The thing is, champions designed by others also have "stupid" mechanics, Kayn's wall walking, Ivern's bushes, Ornn's in-lane shop, list goes on, but nobody complains about them, but those things would be the front page if CT would've designed them, even if it's the exact same design as now.

Just imagine Rengar, Kha, Shitco...I mean Shaco and others having their current kit but under the CT stigma. People hate him, and they would bash everything from him, so just made this.

haaaaaaalpOct 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, champions designed by others also have "stupid" mechanics, Kayn's wall walking, Ivern's bushes, Ornn's in-lane shop, list goes on, but nobody complains about them, but those things would be the front page if CT would've designed them, even if it's the exact same design as now.

Just imagine Rengar, Kha, Shitco...I mean Shaco and others having their current kit but under the CT stigma. People hate him, and they would bash everything from him, so just made this.

People hate champions who are poorly designed regardless of the designer. There would be zero difference if riot just slapped a different name on the creator slot without changing abilities.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

There actually would be a difference, as talking about counter play to a non CT champ actually yields a discussion, while if it's CT champ, you get the "shut up, it's no counter play because I say so".

If Yasuo was designed, say by Jinxed Poro (just naming a random Rioteer), and you told someone to buy Tabi and bait his wall, then go in when wall is down, it would be accepted, not too much flame or anything, but if you tell the same now, well, you know how this goes.

On the other hand, telling someone how to counter...say...idk...Annie, and it's accepted, while if she was under the CT name, you would get "but she has free Q's in lane to farm safe, I can't all in her because of her stun, she has too much poke, her flash ult has no counterplay (ok, that part's true, but you get the point)" and all that.

haaaaaaalpOct 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There actually would be a difference, as talking about counter play to a non CT champ actually yields a discussion, while if it's CT champ, you get the "shut up, it's no counter play because I say so".

If Yasuo was designed, say by Jinxed Poro (just naming a random Rioteer), and you told someone to buy Tabi and bait his wall, then go in when wall is down, it would be accepted, not too much flame or anything, but if you tell the same now, well, you know how this goes.

On the other hand, telling someone how to counter...say...idk...Annie, and it's accepted, while if she was under the CT name, you would get "but she has free Q's in lane to farm safe, I can't all in her because of her stun, she has too much poke, her flash ult has no counterplay (ok, that part's true, but you get the point)" and all that.

Na, that's bullshit. The name of the developer doesn't matter. People complain about yasuo well before they realized CT is a bad designer. People only really started to pick up on that after kalista, zoe and akali hammered that point home. It isn't like people are retroactively saying that zyra is a bad champion simply because they see CT's name on it.

The fact that so many of CT's champions are problematic is a testament to his design philosophy and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

saltranOct 15, 20183 votes

Imagine how harder would ppl cry about Kaisa if she was created by CT

The Boards would explode

KhristophorosOct 15, 20183 votes

Orianna did make people cry when she was new.

DisulfiramOct 15, 20181 votes

LeeSin

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

Oh boy...I would love to see those threads.

SalronOct 15, 20181 votes

Camille Urgot Irelia

Absolutely no doubt in my mind on that

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

Regardless of being designed by CT or not, every designer in Riot can have a glimpse of bias when designing the champions. Let's take Camille for example. She has lockdown mobility (E), empowered auto (Q), long range poke (W), an isolation style that's probably cc (R), she can be tanky, she can slow, she can heal, she can have a shield based on who she attacks, and in other words, she is very overloaded. For a walking lawn mower, she has very few (hell, too few) counterplay. Probably designed by some guy who wants to have utility, damage, heals, cc, etc. and not rely on allies or something.

Example 2: Irelia. No need to explain (i think). Selecting her is like auto-win already. She needs to be gutted.

As a designer myself, it's merely a hunch that Riot's designers aren't asking themselves "should this even be allowed?" or "is this even healthy for the game?" and are going to their own accord. Maybe they got carried away, who knows.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20182 votes

You guys are so basic....trying to rip off the fun from this.

This isn't something about what's balanced or not, or defending or bashing CT. I personally like his designs.

It's just a thread poking fun at that stigma his name has, on how would the boards react if other champions that are currently left alone, no hate threads, etc, would've been designed by him to be exactly how they are now.

Basically, take a champ, switch the designer name and imagine how the boards would react.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You guys are so basic....trying to rip off the fun from this.

This isn't something about what's balanced or not, or defending or bashing CT. I personally like his designs.

It's just a thread poking fun at that stigma his name has, on how would the boards react if other champions that are currently left alone, no hate threads, etc, would've been designed by him to be exactly how they are now.

Basically, take a champ, switch the designer name and imagine how the boards would react.

Well I'm sorry. I literally thought your idea was something like "if problematic champions not designed by CT were actually designed by CT, how would the boards react?" To be a serious thing.

Memes and games are that way --------> I didn't even know this was all a joke.

CT is quite a controversial designer in Riot. I don't think making a joke or game like this is a good idea.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

I did place it in Gameplay because it's not quite a meme, even tho it is supposed to be something fun, considering how many CT bashing threads were made recently.

Yes, it does make a bit of fun of that sting he has, undeserved, but it also serves to show that other champions do have mechanics or things that would get flamed for, so the hate CT gets is undeserved.

I mean, looking at it in a void, there are so many champs that have mechanics to be hated, take Sivir's Spellshield "it blocks a spell AND gives her mana, while it itself has no cost? WHAT BULL IS THIS???" and so on, or they look at how that champion counters theirs and done, but having CT's name on it makes people just go dumb, as even before Akali's kit was announced, she was already hated even more than she was for being CT design.

So yes, this thread (at least imo) belongs in Gameplay, even tho it is supposed to be a bit fun as well.

So yes, it is serious up to a point, by showing that not only CT has bad designs or mechanics, but not to the point you were taking it.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

Can you really blame the hate on CT? I've got nothing against CT, but I think he's working at the wrong place. So many abilities he made shouldn't even see the light of day due to unhealthy they are for the game (arguably at least). I'm a designer myself and am pretty much qualified to work at the same department as him, and to my perspective as a designer, I think he has no idea what PvP is, or he got carried away.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

It's not that he completely gets carried away. He does understand PvP, I mean, both Zoe and WW would be trash in PvE.

His designs have something other champs don't have: they force you to improve, to think and play against. They don't give you the slow road, you either do or you don't.

I didn't had problems with any of his champs because I understand their power spikes and win conditions, so I play around it. Yes, it asks you to play differently against them than other champs, and that's why many hate them, they want to play the exact the same way every game, they don't want to change their play.

Against Darius you need to understand kiting, timings and power spikes.

Zoe forces you to understand wave management, you can't just shove and leave yourself without creeps.

Yasuo and Akali combine wave management with countering via items (take Tabi instead of Sorcs, or get an early Hexdrinker or Executioner's) and they emphasize on baiting the opponent, not just let him do his stuff and hope he let's you do your's.

I can go on but I hope you get the point. They force you to learn and improve or you will be their prey.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

It's not about forcing you to learn how to play against them and adapt your play. I can make a Zoe go 0/10, or even a Yasuo or Akali (even though as Vel'Koz) and they can still have abilities that can be toxic for the game. I get your point, but just because you know how to play against them doesn't mean they are acceptable.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20182 votes

It is about knowing how to play around them. If I know what it does and how to screw them, they they aren't toxic nor annoying.

There are way more toxic abilities than Akali/Yasuo's W. Trynda R for an example. If Yasuo or Akali get cc'd, they dead unless they buy QSS to escape, if Trynda gets hit by cc, he R and kill your team.

Something is toxic if it has no counter play, like Trynda R, the only counter play to that skill is to nuke him 100-0 before he can react. CT's champs have the counter play, players just need to do it. You don't counter a CT champ as you do a normal one, and that's what makes them important to the game, it is the fact that they force you to understand mechanics and aspects. If you can't control the wave, you are screwed by a Zoe since she can do whatever she wants.

Just because some champs can't play around a skill, like most adc's against Akali's W for example doesn't mean it lacks counter play. Counter picks are a thing and some champs can't do stuff against others, that's normal. Toxic means that no champion can do anything, like against Udyr or Pantheon or Jax.

What can you do against Udyr? If he's half decent and has a kill, what can you do? You can't duel him, you can't run away from him unless you're Talon or one of the camo champs so he can't know where you went, as 1 wall is many times not enough to get enough space between you two, and if you do get an upper hand, you can't chase him either, where's the counter play?

Same goes for Jax, he's hard to duel, he can burst, sustained damage, strong early, strong lane, strong jungle impact even from level 2, super strong late game, good and healthy clears in the jungle, good chase, good escape since it has barely any cooldown.

Those 2 are toxic champs, as barely any champ can do something against them, as unlike Akali or Yasuo, you can't really play around them, if they get close to you, youz ded, but if Yasuo or Akali get close, you can outplay them.

Toxic doesn't mean "OMFGBBQCT my champ doesn't have too many tools against these champs" but "who the Shaco can do something against those champs?".

Number tuning can be an issue, but that doesn't mean toxic.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

I don't know much about Udyr i rarely see him. Tryndamere's weakness is heavy CC. Probably the only weakness really but his ulti doesn't last that long anyway. Jax i agree. That guy needs to be gutted. I don't care if Hashinshin gets pissed off from this.

However, i still believe Akali is a bad design and she's overloaded. That's my opinion at least.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

Udyr has a huge almost permanent move speed from his Bear stance, insane burst and sustained damage from his Tiger stance, a stun, to make sure he does nuke you down, a shield and resistances from his Turtle stance and whatever the hell the Phoenix stance does.

His Tiger stance does sustained damage over a period of time BUT if he attacks you 3 times, the buff is refreshed and the damage that you would've taken over the previous duration is dealt instantly.

Due to his huge move speed you can't outrun him unless you have something even bigger, so if he set his eyes on you and you can't reach your team in time, you can very well not even try to run and accept the respawn timer.

As for "cc counters champ X", that can be said about every single champ in the game, hence it's not accepted by many as actual counter play. Outside of CC, what can you do Tryndamere? I can burst Yi and if he remains with a sliver of health, he either has to meditate, giving me some cooldowns, or I can try to kill him first, but if I don't 100-0 Tryndamere instantly without him even able to react, it's done, he no ded me ded.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

Well Tryndamere is old anyway. He probably needs a rework or something.

Pika FoxOct 15, 20182 votes

CT is the best designer riot has. None of the new champions would exist without him breaking the mold of what old designs were and had to be. Now we have ADCs who have completely different auto attacks, supports that do more than heal and shield, etc.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

I don't consider CT as the best designer really. I personally believe he has no idea that League is a PvP game and not PvE. Sure he's creative, but he's not knowing when to stop. If Morello was still here, he'd most likely stop half (if not more) of what CT designed and not let them see the light of day. Zoe is a 100% guarantee since she's like the reincarnation of old Nidalee and Riot said that it was too toxic for the game and removed it.

Akali's shroud hiding from turrets would 100% not see the light of day if Morello was still here.

If anything, if Riot still had Morello, Season 8 wouldn't be a trash season as now. Not even runes were properly thought out.

Pika FoxOct 15, 20183 votes

Zoe and nidalee arent even remotely comparable.

Nidalee was the most mobile champion in the game with long range poke and healing. Zoe has long range poke and thats it.

Akalis true stealth is needed, as she is the best designed assassin in the game, having her burst be heavily gated and delayed. She needs something to guarantee her safety in her spot, esle she would be unable to function at all.

Morello was great at keeping the game stable, but it wasnt nearly as fun as a result.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

No thanks. Zoe was a very problematic champion. Her W is literally a fail safe if she misses her Q. If her Q is her only source of damage, then should she have a built in lich bane and 3 damaging orbs when she uses a summoner spell or W? She is badly designed.

And no. Akali doesn't need true stealth. Turrets are supposed to be the eagle eye of everything that nothing should pass its radar. Let Akali's shroud grant stealth when in lane, i don't mind, but under a turret and can be hidden? No thank you. Unacceptable, unhealthy and unbalanced. That's one thing that makes her a badly designed champion.

Yeah here we go. Morello left and what did we get? This complete mess. Which also wasn't fun at all. If Morello was still here, we wouldn't even get the "too much damage" problem. Or turrets too weak. Or even Zoe and Akali.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

What do you mean with "pass it's radar"?

If you only mean "be seen" then yea, Akali breaks that rule, but if you mean "towers should be a safe haven" then you are playing the wrong game as so many champs can 1 shot you under your tower.

I'd rather take Akali's W under my tower to which I can play against using skill shots than getting 1 shot by Zed or someone else since the towers do nothing.

Also, you can see her exact location under the tower, you just can't auto her or use targeted spells, but champs like Orianna or Vel or others who don't rely too much on their autos don't really care about that, while others like Pantheon do care, that's normal, it's like putting Poppy vs Yasuo/Fiora/Irelia/WhateverHasMobility.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

Turrets are already useless now and Akali's shroud is already an overkill. Riot is changing turrets anyway next season. I recall when an Akali used her shroud under turret i couldn't even see her ghost form thing. Only when she attacked, appeared for a second and disappeared. Probably a bug?

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

Yes, a bug, or you just didn't notice it.

You are supposed to see her white silhouette in the smoke under tower. You can't click on her, but you can dump any aoe on her as you see her location. If the bug is what makes you say she's overloaded, then well, bugs can happen (similar to how in Blind pick, Akali v Akali has no W, as you can't really use it since both get the effect, so.....)

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

Well bummer. Still hate the champion anyway. [zombie-brand-clap]

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

That's ok. We all hate some champions.

Shaco is my most hated one.

CheiniOct 15, 20181 votes

Probably Pyke or Shaco tbh..

Pyke must be killed before the end of the fight or he will execute you and add 2/5 to the gold pool per kill

Shaco has that ridiculous stealth (not camo!) so there isnt much you can do if he gets enough dh stacks or items.. a thing a player cant always prevent happening.

p.s. shaco has been designed by him? oh what a surprise.. :d

Edge of DaybreakOct 15, 20181 votes

Literally anyone people care more about the name than what the design actually is.

Critmaster GarenOct 15, 20181 votes

garen as CT design is literally darius.

as far as i understand, he was made by stattik and certainlyt. darius was made at a time where riot was releasing champions on a 2 week schedule, and instead of reworking older champions or fixing their issues, they just released a new and better version of the existing champion.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20182 votes

I think you misunderstood the thread.

You take a random champion, you change the designer name to CT and say why would the board complain about said champion.

Every champion has things that make it annoying to play against, but outside of CT's champs, no-one complains unless the champ is meta.

I despise Udyr with a passion and if he wasn't played so little, he would've been my permaban. He doesn't have "mobility" as in dashes, blinks or jumps, but unless you have the mobility to jump several walls, you can't get away, you can't chase him either. If he's slightly ahead, you can't duel him.

But no-one complains about him even tho unlike CT's champs, he has no counter play. You hope he's trash or that he doesn't get an early kill, otherwise it's game.

Pika FoxOct 15, 20181 votes

Teemo.

Hovering HentaiOct 15, 20181 votes

Velkoz without a doubt

People would see true damage for a passive and lose their shit. Then they'd calm down - realise he can have a true damage ult and lose their shit again.

It's funny because he's probably one of the most balanced champs in the game and one of the best designed champs ever

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

As a Vel'Koz main, i once got flamed by the enemy Fiddlesticks mid when i was melting him during laning phase. I won't forget what he said: "report Vel'Koz, unbalanced shit"

Like boy?!? Vel'Koz is a balanced champion and vs a Fiddlesticks what do you even expect? Hell, Vel'Koz's own character and his thirst for knowledge makes him even more fitting to have true damage.

ankoanko19Oct 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z66jmqWX,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-10-15T16:05:46.874+0000)

As a Vel'Koz main, i once got flamed by the enemy Fiddlesticks mid when i was melting him during laning phase. I won't forget what he said: "report Vel'Koz, unbalanced shit"

Like boy?!? Vel'Koz is a balanced champion and vs a Fiddlesticks what do you even expect? Hell, Vel'Koz's own character and his thirst for knowledge makes him even more fitting to have true damage.

What the fuck does ''balanced champion'' even mean? If it is not a mage its not a balanced champ? I find Vel'Koz pretty unfun to play against Ill say it right here. It's depressing trying to play someone who doesnt get into Vel'kozs face and kills him in melee (even that is not a guarantee because of his E & slows). Xerath is a worse offender though but that doesnt mean I like to lane against Vel unless I'm literally playing someone like Irelia/Fizz. It's aggrovating playing against champs who just force you to dodge nonpredicted skillshots in lane and refuses to stay even close to arms reach. But does that mean that Vel is unbalanced? Of course not, he fits his niche of being destroyed when youre up in his face but also destroying someone from afar.

King LegoOct 15, 20181 votes

Vel'Koz is a walking glass cannon artillery champion. Laning phase is one thing, but to solo carry with that squid is very difficult because he's a glass cannon and relies on his allies to protect him while in return unleashes his full damage on the enemy.

Hell, i'm working on my Tank Meta vel'koz (literally tank with maybe 2 AP items only), and if i manage to perfect it, Vel'Koz might become more unfun for you to play against and maybe even unbalanced.

Speaking of unbalanced, back in season 7 i went item 3285 item 3157 item 3742 item 3047 item 3065 item 3193 on Vel'Koz and i was still able to one shot. And i wasn't even fed.

IP MasquerenaOct 15, 20181 votes

That sounds similar to a Taliyah vs Yasuo game I had. He kept dashing around my E and kept crying how imbalanced Taliyah is and how she's the most toxic champ in the game and should be removed

LeftyRaydyOct 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Let's have a fun thread, let's look at champions that aren't designed by CT and nobody is complaining about, then think how the boards would react if they were designed by him. Rule of thumb, no change to abilities to say "this is how it would look as a CT design", just how they are now.

My picks would be Orianna and Garen.

Boards: "She's too safe, no clear weaknesses, too much damage once she's fed, no cooldowns, how can I lane against her if I can't all in her whenever I want instead of baiting her E?"

Boards: "Who thought it's a good idea to give him free healing, no cooldowns and no mana? He can take bad trades, afk 10 seconds and boom, he won the trade and has no counterplay to it, and he's all point and click"

Let's see what others think :p

Whats with everyone defending CT recently lol. Oriana and Garen do not have the CT feel to them. Not enough mobility for sure and no broken gameplay like Akali True Stealth, or Yasuo ult takes him out of tower aggro whenever possible. He made a lot of bad for the game champions and its not the champs themselves its something they added to the game that was not there before that no one asked for or thought would be a good idea. True Stealth is one of them, Yasuo double passive, windwall, ultimate mechanics. Orianna is not even close to one of the safest champions out there. sure she is oppressive against melee mid laners, but that is about it. also people already complain about garen and his braindead gameplay.

PopcornBunniOct 15, 20181 votes

Zed and Pyke are the only ones that come remotely close.

ankoanko19Oct 15, 20181 votes

Probably Lux, Vel. They would screech at him for making so much AOE & use fancy words such as ''true dmg ult'' ''ult aoe nuke'' ''infinite poke'' etc.