Question about Zed, the most annoying assassin to face of them all

IP Masquerena·Dec 24, 2018·79 votes·18,637 views

Ok, so I'll cut the pleasantries, as I'm no mood of them.

There's something I want to ask about Zed. In the past, Mages got nerfed because all they used to do was sit back and wave clear where they'd harass you if you tried to harass them, making the lane uninteractive. So why is Zed the only assassin allowed to do that just as well without having any draw back on his aggression?

Talon can also wave clear from a distance, but he trades his kill potential for that safety. Ekko can also wave clear from a distance, but he also trades kill potential for it. Fizz is Fizz, push him out, he can't farm, still annoying to face tho. LeBlanc wants to get in your face and kill you, if she doesn't she sets herself behind. Akali is somewhere between Ekko and Fizz. Katarina is around there as well, she doesn't really have much wave clear without putting herself in danger

There there's Zed, who doesn't trade anything for that safety, and he has his 1300 range harass with WQ, which allows him to initiate on you without Flash as well if somehow you get low enough. Yes yes, I know some of you will defend him with "but if he uses W, he doesn't have an escape anymore", but here's the thing, the "good Zeds" don't seem to push the lane, letting it get close to their tower where they can farm safely even if they harass with WQ, and if the lane is close to the middle of the lane, unless you can all in and kill him right away, if you get close he'll just WEQ you for a lot of damage, and if you're close enough, his own Q will hit, procking Electrocute as well.

Let's not even talk about that cheap last hit assistant he has.

He makes no tradeoffs for a safe lane, which makes him stupidly annoying to lane. I can force other assassins to stay back and farm/lose farm (depending on their waveclear) and they can't kill me unless I fuck up, but Zed can WR and boom, you're done.

Are Zed mains in some sort of deal with Riot along the Shaco mains?

If not, what's the exact reason why Zed is allowed to do so?

[sg-shisa]

182 Comments

Cats Are FoodDec 24, 201836 votes

As a Zed main:

I actually rather agree. Often I have zero fear of my tower being pushed down, because my entire farming idea is to let you push ANYWAY, and to harass you the whole time(grabbing CS with autos). I can survive easily enough by ganking top and bottom, and if you make the mistake of letting me harass you low I will just kill you too.

I rarely worry about using my W outside of my own lane, other than as an escape, because at 6 I've begun to roam between creep waves, and my Ult cooldown is low enough I can dip in and out of a fight every 60s using just that. If I have to run I W away. I may occasionally use it to toss pain into a team fight clusterf^^^ that I don't want to ult into the middle of, but yeah.

My lane phase is incredibly safe. If I'm against a Fizz, Ekko or Talon I just let them push me to my tower to CS. Due to my E and passive I still get every creep of the wave, despite tower hits. I'm also one of the jerks who runs Hydra for the E+active combo of my ult, and to ensure my CS never drops even spending most of the laning phase roaming.

MiD EnforcerDec 25, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cats Are Food,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ktAfpeZN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-24T19:27:24.193+0000)

As a Zed main:

I actually rather agree. Often I have zero fear of my tower being pushed down, because my entire farming idea is to let you push ANYWAY, and to harass you the whole time(grabbing CS with autos). I can survive easily enough by ganking top and bottom, and if you make the mistake of letting me harass you low I will just kill you too.

I rarely worry about using my W outside of my own lane, other than as an escape, because at 6 I've begun to roam between creep waves, and my Ult cooldown is low enough I can dip in and out of a fight every 60s using just that. If I have to run I W away. I may occasionally use it to toss pain into a team fight clusterf^^^ that I don't want to ult into the middle of, but yeah.

My lane phase is incredibly safe. If I'm against a Fizz, Ekko or Talon I just let them push me to my tower to CS. Due to my E and passive I still get every creep of the wave, despite tower hits. I'm also one of the jerks who runs Hydra for the E+active combo of my ult, and to ensure my CS never drops even spending most of the laning phase roaming.

Bro be honest with urself plz. You have 42% win rate with zed in bronze 1. I'm not mocking you but it's a rebuttal.

Cats Are FoodDec 25, 20185 votes

Bro, go read some more of my posts and get back to me.

Be honest with yourself. Your rank is all you have.

IPromiseTomorrowDec 25, 20187 votes

Your comment isn't invalid because you're a Bronze player. That's just plain invalidation without basis.

But as a Bronz Zed Main. Your info about Zed is mostly relative to Bronze Zed and not going to relate To Zed Higher Elo.

Why do ppl say your comment is of no worth is because they aren't on the same Elo.

Some Challenger info given to Silvers is invalid because No Silver is going to meet another Silver who plays at the same level as a Challenger. And Vice Versa lol.

I can explain why some info from High ELO fits into low Elo but that's too long of a post to explain.

Hope this explains why Other Elos act like a rude Arrogant person.

Cats Are FoodDec 25, 201811 votes

I've been platinum for 7 seasons. Bronze for 1. There's a reason the people who try to call me out on the boards for it are in the minority.

Other posts of mine really do explain it.

Dr DogDec 25, 20186 votes

then care to explain here? not saying your lying its just this account doesnt make it seem true at all and i havent seen much about it i your posts

Cats Are FoodDec 25, 20184 votes

https://imgur.com/a/DIQbweM

Because people are asking me to prove something that, literally, doesn't matter. Instead of actually discussing what's in this topic. If they were truly curious they could easily PM me in game, but they are simply attempting to derail the thread/comment because they have no actual argument.

If I were claiming to be challenger I could see spending time and effort on it, but why?

The ChillinDec 25, 20182 votes

He is doing that thing, where people claim to be diamond smurfs without proof. And as for this whole "Zed is a problem champion" He is a problem, he's so god awful that I cant pick him with the intent to win in mid diamond games.

Daddy AntsDec 24, 201812 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVx3KgC5CyI

Watch this

It's about 15 minutes long but is very detailed.

Few key points to beating Zed in lane are as follows

Harass when Q is on cooldown

Harass him when his Q is on cooldown, especially at levels 1 and 2. His Q is the only form of "poke" Zed has until he hits level 3.

Harass when W shadow disappears

High cooldown ability in the early game (22 seconds). Zed maxes this ability LAST. Once he's used his W and the shadow has disappeared you will have approximately 12 - 15 seconds to harass Zed while his mobility is down.

Zed always appears BEHIND you once he's visible after pressing Death Mark.

Aim your crowd control behind you once he presses R.

IP MasquerenaDec 24, 201826 votes

Although the video is good, I know how to face Zed and I know how he works.

The main complaint of the thread is WHY is he allowed to be so safe without trading anything?

Ok, I can try to go harass when Q is down, I mean, I got 6 seconds, but if he stays behind and safe, then what? I need to keep a bit of distance myself, so by the time I am close enough to him, his Q is almost up, so if he knows to back of a little, I get harass off, and if I do manage something that's aa, creeps will target me and if it's a spell, well, that depends on what I am playing as well.

And as I said, after level 2, he can harass me without me having the chance to harass back, and since he's energy based and Q being so cheap, he can keep doing it all over again as many times as he wants when he's off cooldown, while I can't keep up.

Again, it's not that I don't know to play against him, it's why is he allowed to be so safe while still keeping his kill potential? (not talking about Flash stuff, as anyone can do that once every 5 minutes).

As I said in the OP, Talon can clear waves, but then what? He can't jump in to kill me and if he tries anything funny at level 6, I can usually notice and back off in time making it harder for him if he plays safe. Same goes for LeBlanc, Ekko and many others except Zed. His engage range with WR is 1275, so if I'm less than that distance away from him, he can engage on me, and his WQ harass range is 1550, so tell me, what other Assassin has that engange/harass range? I mean, Ahri could engage that distance if she dashes twice for a closer range Charm or dashes once for a max range Charm, which is hard to land without help or being out of vision, but if she misses that Charm, well then, she lost her ult, can't kill you (if she can, you're already low) and needs to back off and play safe for a good while, since it's her ult she lost. Zed? Point and click engage with R. Why is he allowed so much safety?

Hopefully that will explain the point of the thread.

TekkenPlayerDec 24, 201813 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVx3KgC5CyI

Watch this

It's about 15 minutes long but is very detailed.

 

Few key points to beating Zed in lane are as follows

Harass when Q is on cooldown

Harass him when his Q is on cooldown, especially at levels 1 and 2. His Q is the only form of "poke" Zed has until he hits level 3.

Harass when W shadow disappears

High cooldown ability in the early game (22 seconds). Zed maxes this ability LAST. Once he's used his W and the shadow has disappeared you will have approximately 12 - 15 seconds to harass Zed while his mobility is down.

Zed always appears BEHIND you once he's visible after pressing Death Mark.

Aim your crowd control behind you once he presses R.

Everything besides the third option is basically NPC advice. If you are a mage, you wont in anyway punish zed for q'ing a minion because of how low the CD is, Zed will not fall behind in CS if he plays even remotely safer

Once he's used his W harass combo and you are even remotely near him, you are chunked enough to the point where if you retaliate, you will not out trade him.

Even if say the Zed is having a bad day vs a mage, and is completely dumb in lane, he can just build item 3155 and there, all the kill potential the mage has is delayed by 10-15.

You win by surviving, which isn't remotely fun at all

IP MasquerenaDec 24, 201817 votes

Which is the reason why most Mages were nerfed, because their lanes were lacking interaction and the only "win" was "who can waveclear faster and roam", yet Zed is still allowed to do just that while also being so safe and AD having access to some of the best items in game, as you mentioned, and as an AD Assassin, he loses nothing for going different boot types, while Mages lose a lot if not going Sorcs.

FéliXXXDec 25, 20184 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVx3KgC5CyI

Watch this

It's about 15 minutes long but is very detailed.

 

Few key points to beating Zed in lane are as follows

Harass when Q is on cooldown

Harass him when his Q is on cooldown, especially at levels 1 and 2. His Q is the only form of "poke" Zed has until he hits level 3.

Harass when W shadow disappears

High cooldown ability in the early game (22 seconds). Zed maxes this ability LAST. Once he's used his W and the shadow has disappeared you will have approximately 12 - 15 seconds to harass Zed while his mobility is down.

Zed always appears BEHIND you once he's visible after pressing Death Mark.

Aim your crowd control behind you once he presses R.

are you really trying to tell boards to learn how to play the game instead of blaming everything that they dont like even if they dont have any reason/knowledge? LOL

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20184 votes

Being honest, I do feel sorry for him being so downvoted for missing the point of the thread.

It's not about "learning to play" versus Zed. Unlike other assassins, unless he's a complete noob, the lane has no interaction. The "good" Zeds play the lane like an artillery mage yet still retain his all in potential due to his insane engage range.

As I said in multiple comments, you don't "win" vs Zed even if in the same scenario, every other assassin would be set behind and punished. I can shove the lane into his tower, but due to his passive and his low cd Q, he can thin the wave being able to almost perfectly last hit everything, and there's no counter play to that, I can't do anything to stop his passive, and if I try to harass him under tower, depending on what I play, I risk taking a WEQ + Electrocute combo and maybe even a tower shot, while as I said, other Assassins can't do that. I showe Ekko under tower? He'll lose farm, he can't last hit almost everything perfectly, so if I outplay him correctly and poke him, he can't really fight back, he either comes close to the wave and tries to Q me as well as the wave, risking taking more damage himself, and if he's behind already, that's bad for him, or just tries to grab some cs with Q and loses a bunch to tower, same goes for Talon and anyone, except Zed, he can both farm and harass if you're not careful because of his 1550 harass range on WQ and there's his passive, as I said, allowing him to last hit almost everything, making him stupidly safe.

Winning trades versus Zed just isn't rewarding, unless he's a complete noob or you are something that can 100-0 him instantly and have the means to harass from a high enough range that the tower won't hit you and you're so far away that WQ is hard to land, Zed just goes even, he doesn't lose, when all other Assassins in the same scenario would lose and get punished.

UmbrałDec 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Being honest, I do feel sorry for him being so downvoted for missing the point of the thread.

It's not about "learning to play" versus Zed. Unlike other assassins, unless he's a complete noob, the lane has no interaction. The "good" Zeds play the lane like an artillery mage yet still retain his all in potential due to his insane engage range.

As I said in multiple comments, you don't "win" vs Zed even if in the same scenario, every other assassin would be set behind and punished. I can shove the lane into his tower, but due to his passive and his low cd Q, he can thin the wave being able to almost perfectly last hit everything, and there's no counter play to that, I can't do anything to stop his passive, and if I try to harass him under tower, depending on what I play, I risk taking a WEQ + Electrocute combo and maybe even a tower shot, while as I said, other Assassins can't do that. I showe Ekko under tower? He'll lose farm, he can't last hit almost everything perfectly, so if I outplay him correctly and poke him, he can't really fight back, he either comes close to the wave and tries to Q me as well as the wave, risking taking more damage himself, and if he's behind already, that's bad for him, or just tries to grab some cs with Q and loses a bunch to tower, same goes for Talon and anyone, except Zed, he can both farm and harass if you're not careful because of his 1550 harass range on WQ and there's his passive, as I said, allowing him to last hit almost everything, making him stupidly safe.

Winning trades versus Zed just isn't rewarding, unless he's a complete noob or you are something that can 100-0 him instantly and have the means to harass from a high enough range that the tower won't hit you and you're so far away that WQ is hard to land, Zed just goes even, he doesn't lose, when all other Assassins in the same scenario would lose and get punished.

the only way he can trade is on a 22 second cool down what?

ΒIG IRONDec 24, 201812 votes

Man idk why people upvote this trash good that the boards don´t do the balancing.

I don´t want to go into much detail why op is completely wrong about Zed, but there are some points I want to mention.

Zed W has 22 sec cooldown and he typically maxes it last its also his only way of doing any poke damage and his only escape tool. You cant count his Q unless you are really bad and get hit by every Q he throws while not being behind any minion. Once he used hiw W you can literally run him down and he cant do jack shit about that pre 6. His waveclear is way worse than you give him credit for his E costs 50 energy 2 casts and he is oomed, If he uses W Q to waveclear early he is really screwed (explained above). Actually you compared all these champions waveclear strength but Zed is literally the person who has the worst waveclear of them early.

If you don´t already know Riot said Zed is weak several High elo mains stopped playing him including Faker.

Furthermore If you look at mage items which you probably do since you are an Ahri main btw the strongest midlaner rn you can pretty much negate all of Zed early damage threat with Seekers(151% gold efficient while maxed out btw) which builds into Zhonyas on of the strongest items in the game,meanwhile Riot nerfed Hexdrinker and didn´t touch Maw at all which nobody build and now nobody builds Hexdrinker aswell since the nerf and there are more nerfs coming with the PD change.

All of this is reflected at Zed´s poor winrate in midgame where he should actually perform best but cant because he starts doing damage with 4 items since he is so fucked by armor,Zhonyas,GA and needs multiple Armpen items and 40% cdr is a must,meanwhile Mages have the best items with no drawbacks every item has CDR even defensive items same for mana,pen. These are the real problems ingame Mages blowing up squishies with ease in Teamfights with way too much cdr while also having cc and utility AD items are really ass right now just look at the Crit items for example.

MiD EnforcerDec 24, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nö Vaseline,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ktAfpeZN,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-12-24T22:44:22.780+0000)

Man idk why people upvote this trash good that the boards don´t do the balancing.

I don´t want to go into much detail why op is completely wrong about Zed, but there are some points I want to mention.

Zed W has 22 sec cooldown and he typically maxes it last its also his only way of doing any poke damage and his only escape tool. You cant count his Q unless you are really bad and get hit by every Q he throws while not being behind any minion. Once he used hiw W you can literally run him down and he cant do jack shit about that pre 6. His waveclear is way worse than you give him credit for his E costs 50 energy 2 casts and he is oomed, If he uses W Q to waveclear early he is really screwed (explained above). Actually you compared all these champions waveclear strength but Zed is literally the person who has the worst waveclear of them early.

If you don´t already know Riot said Zed is weak several High elo mains stopped playing him including Faker.

Furthermore If you look at mage items which you probably do since you are an Ahri main btw the strongest midlaner rn you can pretty much negate all of Zed early damage threat with Seekers(151% gold efficient while maxed out btw) which builds into Zhonyas on of the strongest items in the game,meanwhile Riot nerfed Hexdrinker and didn´t touch Maw at all which nobody build and now nobody builds Hexdrinker aswell since the nerf and there are more nerfs coming with the PD change.

All of this is reflected at Zed´s poor winrate in midgame where he should actually perform best but cant because he starts doing damage with 4 items since he is so fucked by armor,Zhonyas,GA and needs multiple Armpen items and 40% cdr is a must,meanwhile Mages have the best items with no drawbacks every item has CDR even defensive items same for mana,pen. These are the real problems ingame Mages blowing up squishies with ease in Teamfights with way too much cdr while also having cc and utility AD items are really ass right now just look at the Crit items for example.

When a zed main and the best player in the world don't even recommend zed anymore, you know there's something wrong with the champion. Seeker just shut a zed down and I'm not even exaggerating.

ThefrostyvikingDec 25, 201812 votes

[{quoted}](name=MiD Enforcer,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ktAfpeZN,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-12-24T23:19:02.359+0000)

When a zed main and the best player in the world don't even recommend zed anymore, you know there's something wrong with the champion. Seeker just shut a zed down and I'm not even exaggerating.

Dude go easy on the BS would ya? O_O

Zed in plati+ has 13,3% pickrate, 50% winrate and 40% banrate, in dia+ he has 11,7% pickrate but 49% winrate and banrate drops to 28%, but the sample size for dia+ is kinda small.

So 53% P/b rate and still 50% winrate.

If i am not mistaken Irelia is called broken literally all her statistics are lower than his except banrate by a single %, despite how she is played in two different lanes while he only has 1.

So Zed playing only mid still somehow beats Irelia in pick(if looking at single lanes), ban and winrate, by a very notable margin.

Goes for akali as well.

Better nerf Zed then tho?

MiD EnforcerDec 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Dude go easy on the BS would ya? O_O

Zed in plati+ has 13,3% pickrate, 50% winrate and 40% banrate, in dia+ he has 11,7% pickrate but 49% winrate and banrate drops to 28%, but the sample size for dia+ is kinda small.

So 53% P/b rate and still 50% winrate.

If i am not mistaken Irelia is called broken literally all her statistics are lower than his except banrate by a single %, despite how she is played in two different lanes while he only has 1.

So Zed playing only mid still somehow beats Irelia in pick(if looking at single lanes), ban and winrate, by a very notable margin.

Goes for akali as well.

Better nerf Zed then tho?

I've been playing 500 rank games in season 8 in plat 4 to 2. Never have I ever encounter a zed ban. Literally only good in gold and below because people have no clue what's going on. Don't know how reliable is the stats.

Edit : I think I'm exaggerating a bit about 500 games in plat, it was around 200 games actually. Cause I started from silver. And it maybe around 1 to 10 zed ban cause I might have forgot.

ThefrostyvikingDec 25, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=MiD Enforcer,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ktAfpeZN,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-25T01:05:39.111+0000)

I've been playing 500 rank games in season 8 in plat 4 to 2. Never have I ever encounter a zed ban. Literally only good in gold and below because people have no clue what's going on. Don't know how reliable is the stats.

Edit : I think I'm exaggerating a bit about 500 games in plat, it was around 200 games actually. Cause I started from silver. And it maybe around 1 to 10 zed ban cause I might have forgot.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/zed/diamond

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/zed

Statistics.

ThefrostyvikingDec 25, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nö Vaseline,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ktAfpeZN,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-12-24T22:44:22.780+0000)

If you don´t already know Riot said Zed is weak several High elo mains stopped playing him including Faker.

Man you need to get your head on straight, who the hells do you think are the most biased towards Zed?

Its his very own mains, they are naturally the ones who will cry the loudest for buffs whenever possible.

Right now in dia+ midlane zed has 10,6% playrate, 49% winrate and 28,7% banrate, ahri meanwhile has 7,4% pickrate, 52,5% winrate but also only 3,6% banrate.

Clearly people hate Zed far, far and worlds more than they do Ahri,......is it because Zed is weak and useless?

Hells no, its because he is a living pain in the ass with very little counterplay for many once he actually gets going, and evidently he is strong or he wouldnt still have 49% winrate even with such a high combined win and banrate.

hells those two combined are ~39%, Ahri has 11% in total.

Zed? Weak? Easily shutdown by seeker alone?

Are you drunk? Do you even know what statistics are?

High elo quitting Zed is not because he a bad assasssins by any means, no rather the issue is that assassins by virtue of their very design need to either snowball or roam and act opportunistically to succeed.

That kinda shit doesnt fly in the peak levels of play, it does in dia+ somehow but not in the absolute top of the game.

That is why Zed and absolutely no other assassin ever see any kind of play in pro play when they are balanced, because they by design suck against coordinating teams.

Only exception is Akali that evidently has the means to succeed in the hands of similarly peak level skilled hands.

But she is also a very recent rework product that most likely had the goal to let her do exactly that.

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20184 votes

Ignore them, it's just hypocrisy and doesn't even know how energy works.

50 energy at 5 sec cool down? I can spam that spell on cool down and never run out due to the 10 e/s regen, yet somehow Zed casts it twice and goes oom when the base energy is 200 except for Shen?

As for the hypocrisy, isn't the boards mentality to ignore pro play and stupidly high elo when talking about balance? Yet somehow, when something is strong in general play but weak in high elo, it's garbage because "pros don't use it"

sobi999Dec 24, 20189 votes

I've made the same comment again and again and all i get in response is, Zed is melee. He can safely farm as if he was a mage, and without any mana costs. If you come too close, you risk a half health WEQ combo with electrocute and if he has ult, he will simply end your misery there and then. Needless to say, he can tower dive relatively easy. The only way to counter him is to play someone like lissandra or kayle, that actually counter his entire kid so badly or play another assassin.

xDogMeatxDec 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I've made the same comment again and again and all i get in response is, Zed is melee. He can safely farm as if he was a mage, and without any mana costs. If you come too close, you risk a half health WEQ combo with electrocute and if he has ult, he will simply end your misery there and then. Needless to say, he can tower dive relatively easy. The only way to counter him is to play someone like lissandra or kayle, that actually counter his entire kid so badly or play another assassin.

Yeahhhh zed isnt melee type champ though. Considering he will blink all over the place kind of damage and still does crazy level damage at such a range i believe his q is his aa attack due to its easy aiming nature calling him melee is like calling rakan melee at least his q dont pierce a million entities and only stops at one. So yeah i dont believe with his range hes allowed calls him a melee unit like jax or riven

The Highest NoonDec 25, 20187 votes

I was ready to make a "Haha you suck against Zed in 2018 what a scrub" comment but tbh I understand fully how Zed is a problem for people. My biggest gripe is that he has a kit which allows him to miss his main sources of damage and still one-shot you. TBH, if Zed ults you yet misses all of his Shuriken, he should NOT be able to destroy you from 100%.

That sounds like a necessary fix for the champion tbh. Instead of his ult working off all damage, it should mainly work off damage from his abilities--specifically, his Q. Even if a change like that doesn't go live immediately, they should test it.

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20183 votes

And remove his passive from working on creeps.

The Highest NoonDec 25, 20182 votes

I think it's fine that it works on minions. There's no lore-logical reason that it shouldn't. He kills. Minions aren't an exception. If anything, it merely shouldn't be as affective against them. He may be a killer, but they're still minions after all.

xXSpearmint69XxDec 24, 20186 votes

Really his only weakness is baiting his W into a bad trade, but it's still Zed who has the better potential for getting a good trade than you in most cases.

And let's not talk about outplaying his R. As an ADC he just R+AA+ignite and you're dead, they never hit Q or even E anyway, that's the worst part, he just has too high stats.

HopeStartsWithUDec 24, 20186 votes

Idk it might be only me (ofc it is only me because I am talking pro zed here) I hate to play against talon, fizz, lb, ekko more than against Zed. Idk why you dont see clear weaknesses in him but his 22secs CD on his W is enough time to punish him be it solo or with your jungler.

Its probably your bad mood giving you an even worse perspective on things.

Ekko literally presses Q once he has some mana and AP with ms boosts, shields and a dash. He is undoubtly the safest assassin next to LB.

Lb literally presses Q+W when you go farming and you are almost halflife.

Talon literally kills you at lvl2 like LITERALLY.

What does Zed do? Poking with Q through minions dealing almost 0 damage. Wasting shadows just to miss his Q since we all know how to dodge and then being unable to escape any ganks, poke or w/e. Then you build a seekers and his entire combo at lvl 6 deals a bit more than halflife if he really hits everything.

Zed for me is by far the easiest match up since he has 0 AoE wave clear without wasting an important ability unlike other champs. When you flash on time this fucker wont hit any shurikens and his ult will deal 0 damag once again. Idk this guy has so many openings, the player base is so greedy in times and he really doesnt have a late game unless your adc decides to kermit. (or the zed player is a smurf lol)

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20182 votes

I'm not gonna repeat the same thing over and over, so for more details, read my comments to others, but in short, it's about when you win trades and smart outplays, other assassins are punished, Zed isn't unless he's a complete noob.

HopeStartsWithUDec 25, 20181 votes

I guess you didnt even bother reading my comment. http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Rylalei this says it all. You refuse to progress in this game. You refuse to understand a kit and just rant about it. Zed is by far the fairest Assassin and he was the assassins update example to justify delay on burst (which failed badly with lb)

Your arguments are shit. You are just commenting out of "feelings". People in other comments precisely destroy your arguments and you just come up with "its not about that, its not about this."

With that attidute you can pretty much stay in silver for another few seasons.

The point stands: Zed has among all assassins the most counterplay, the worst poke/trade and insanely low base damage for an early/mid champ. He literally has to hit every ability without hitting minions to deal a significant amount of damage.

On top of it. All of your examples clearly scale better into late game than Zed.

Go make the damage tests in practice tool you will see yourself wrong (who am i kidding a silver player wont even admit his own mistakes)

EDIT: And since you wanna "know" why Zed is allowed to "waveclear": He cant even fucking waveclear at lvl 3 like mages do. I dont know where you got that shit but if you let him clear waves then you are most likely afk and dont even play the game. Jesus so much ignorance

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20184 votes

Gotta love the boards, hypocrisy to the end.

Just curious, what elo matter then?

My opinions don't matter because I'm low elo, but according to the boards, high elo doesn't matter either because the vast majority aren't there?

Yea, I'm Silver, and silver has a stupid amount of Zeds to the point of him being almost pick ban in my games, as you very rarely see a game where Zed is either not banned or not picked, at least from the ones I'm playing, so that means I have quite a lot of experience against him, and there's the problem, there's just 1 of 2 types of Zeds.

The M7 Zed who all they do is stay behind farming with spells and passive and throwing his combo at you when you try to harass, and the Zed who's not M7. Guess with which one I'm having issues? Hint: his mastery flag ain't blue.

So apparently my arguments are shit? Well, how funny when I try to be as detailed as possible.

Against people who can farm under tower easily, like Fizz, Annie, Cass, Irelia, you freeze the lane, but Zed can break freezes. Against people who can break a freeze, you shove the wave, but Zed can farm under tower due to his passive.

Oh wait, those aren't good arguments for you, let's see...how about his high range? Zed's Q is longer than Ahri's Q, and I think I mentioned several times, his engage range is 1275, while Talon's engage range with Flash is 1050, so Zed loses nothing when playing away from the minions, making it impossible to harass him without him being able to hurt you back (his WQ range is 1575, just pointing it out) so if you're in a cast animation, there's a high chance you're taking hurt back, but hey, my arguments have no value since I'm silver and talking feelings.

I think it's also just feelings that he's AD and has access to some of the best items in-game, also his high ban rate and pick rate, wait, wasn't that when Akali was talked about that "high banrates deflate winrate" thingy talked on the boards? Well, she had 44% wr at the time, Zed's at 50, so if high banrate deflates winrate, according to the boards themselves, then Zed at over 10% pickrate would have over 51-52% winrate according to that logic, but don't mind me, that's balanced and I'm talking feelings, and how about that thing with higher pick rates should show lower winrates, especially on high skill cap champs? Guess Zed is an exception as a 50% winrate for that pick rate is normal on a high skill cap champ, then again, guess everyone on the boards saying that type of stuff is talking feelings, just like me.

Wait wait wait, there's one more: recently the boards cries that Neeko is umbalanced because when she hits her E, she gets a chance to kill you, but when replied with "just dodge", they got replied back with "dodging ins't counterplay, as it will hit every so often as you can't dodge every single one that's thrown out", and yet here you are with a similar comment to "just dodge".

HopeStartsWithUDec 25, 20182 votes

You bring down arguments. Arguments which are completely exaggerated and out of place. Zed can break freeze? So can the champs you listed there. God forbid someone who is pressured by a lane counter has the ability TO AT LEAST FARM and NOT FALL BACK FOR THE ENTIRE GAME BECAUSE OF A COUNTERPICK.

Ive seen a lot of posts from silvers, fuck even bronzies, but they had actually valid points, comparing points and actually trying to understand WHY certain things are like this. You think that I am a representative of these boards but you have no idea how I hate these boards. I understand fully why Riot ignores this shit place. People literally cried about that Graves AD nerf and he plummed in winrate after the patch.

Zed has a high playerrate because he is fun to play. This guy has also a lot of mains and one tricks (its actually deeper than this but explaining it would be insanely long, there is a tweet from a Rioter explaining it better, someone else posted it somewhere).

And yes, dodging is a valid answer to Zeds combo. Its not point it click, its not fast, it literally wastes his only engage/disengage tool which allows you to harass him for 22secs which means more than 1 mage rotations. You can push in and harass him even under turret if you understand how turret attacking works (practice tool could help you a lot in timing it).

Zed has all these tools to survive the laning and to come online when he has his powerspike. He cant do shit lategame and is totally team dependant. His only strong phase in which he really is safe is his early game. Thats literally it. And without kills he won't be able to snowball (and thus be useless as fuck for the rest of the game) and if this Zed doesnt push you in so he can roam and snowball then the Zed is absolute garbage. Zed sacrificed waveclear, good damage in early stages, roaming potential (compared to talon) for a good early game. You will never see a Zed killing someone at lvl3 unless the killed one fucked up badly or was afk.

Complaining about a champions early game doesnt even make sense. And if you really struggle against him just pick Pantheon or Darius and farm Zed instead of minions. (yes counterpicking IS an option)

If you gonna complain about Zed having a good early, why shouldnt I be complaining about the insane safety of mages and their insane amount of burst combined with CC and waveclear and such a safe form of farming too. (See how this sounds?)

He is frustrating to play against yes, but by no means does he need nerfs or is "op" as some would say here.

I could write a wall of text to each of your listed champs and why they are worse than Zed but I dont think you would grasp the message.

EDIT: I forgot to say this one, build a seekers or a ninja tabi and his entire combo (literally ENTIRE combo) won't be able to kill you in early stages. Lethality is THIS shit right now.

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20183 votes

Are we talking about the same Zed?

http://prntscr.com/lzcwjm

Over a 55% winrate at 40 mins (not sure what's with the shard drop to 0% after 45 mins) is clearly not a "weak late-game".

You said Talon can break a freeze, yea, he can, I also stated that, but he can't engage on me and unless his W fully nukes a wave under tower, he'll lose most of the CS, just as I said in comment above "Shove wave against those who can break a freeze and freeze against those who can farm under tower", yet Zed can do both, but apparently according to some, that's not a valid argument.

Cass and Annie and Fizz can also farm under tower, and if needed, can break a freeze, by putting themselves in a lot of danger and wasting a lot of mana, Zed doesn't need to put himself in too much danger to break a freeze due to his long ranges (as I said, Zed Q is longer than Ahri Q thus hitting more units), then again, that seems another argument that's "not good".

Let's see what other arguments weren't good? His engage range being so high? 1250 is his max engage range, so if he hits you with WQ, he can wait almost the whole duration of W then engage and his Q will be back up when he finishes his R (W is 5 sec duration, Q is 6 sec cd, R wind-up is 0.75)

Now, that we saw Zed has anything but a weak late game and according to many here, he has a safe laning phase because he has a weak late game.....say again?

HopeStartsWithUDec 25, 20182 votes

I gotta say, it went past me that his winrate that late into the game is still that good. His winrate was always shitty lategame in past seasons. But thats probably because tanks arent favoured in this meta. Usually when tanks are good Zed isnt a good pick and is rarely picked.

But I can see where you are coming from. While his laning is oppressive (and frustrating) I still wouldn't say he is OP by any means because I do think he has enough openings as mentioned before. The way you put it, I can understand your points really well, but they don't transition that well into the game. I may play a lot of Zed but I gotta admit that I really hate it to play against good Zed players myself.

Maybe you should play a few games with him (more than 10 I would recommend) because everytime I think a champ is busted I play that champ to see it myself.

You should be exactly THAT precise with your statements on the boards. Because the way you put the "breaking freeze" sentence in your thread isn't enough. And don't compare to other abilities because champs are always played differently.

That's it from me though I have nothing to add anymore. I guess have a nice time in those threads

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20182 votes

When I made those comments I was just waking up, guess I was a bit more sleepy that I thought, sorry if it didn't explain exactly what I ment.

Now, I never said he's OP, strong yea, but not OP.

My main gripe aren't the usual Zeds from Silver, but the ones that are good, because as I said in another comment, all they do is sit back, thin the wave (I can manage some waves, still working on actually freezing "perfectly") with Q's while grabbing CS, and let it push towards them after they hit level 2, making it always hard to harass, since when they are taking the ranged creeps, they will hurt back with WQ, while you can't harass most of the other time because of the tower and how back they shit even if they have no allied creeps.

That safety coupled with the passive is just too much in my opinion. Like, I don't want any other nerfs to him and for all I care, he can even get compensation buffs to Q/E to keep his waveclear at a similar level, just remove the passive working on minions.

While the extra damage it does to casters is around 18 early game, it does almost 30 bonus damage to melee minions before reductions early game to melee minions, and let's be honest, 30 bonus damage at level 1 is....

I'll be honest, I don't know how minions actually get their upgrades, so I will still use base health value, just to not say a dumber thing with wrong values, but do consider that since Zed's passive is max health damage, the damage value actually done may be higher than what I will list.

After level 6, Zed's passive will deal 8%, for casters that's almost 24 damage at the lowest, and almost 40 on melee creeps at the base health, but considering that gets higher, the damage will also go higher, that's the main reason why I want it removed from working on creeps. A BF worth of damage on creeps on passive that's just there, needs no management or what ever is a bit too much imho.

Someone said Orianna does the same, so just to compare, but at level 6, Ori gets to do 26 damage bonus to creeps on her 3rd auto onwards, not from the get go, and yes, while it sounds impressive, it's 2 more than his passive on casters, you can see the difference on melee, 26 ain't close to 40, and while Ori's is just 18 at the start, Zed's 40.

iDarkWindDec 25, 20186 votes

Yes, but using your combo as wave clear tool opens a big window where your opponent can make a good trade out of that, because without energy you have no way to retaliate. Zed will allow you to push because he can't contest that most of the times. Unless you're in a situation where you're dominating already your opponent, as a meele champion and a energy based champion you can't afford to waste your resources in a wave clear to be immediatly punished for it right after, unless you intended to recall.

Also, using his 1300 range as argument is plain stupid. In first place, it is his max range with W + Q, second his Q travel speed isn't that high. If someone is really far away it'll be very hard to land it anyways, and you would be wasting a 22 seconds ability to throw one Q only wich is never worth it unless under certain cases.

Overall your stataments shouldn't be taken seriously, the reason being is you can't compare one aspect of each champion, but always their whole kit and strenghts and weakness's, but oh well:

"Talon can also wave clear from a distance, but he trades his kill potential for that safety." But Talon actually dominates from very early, and he doesn't trade safety at all by using his W, lol. Talon's laning phase is way stronger than Zed and way easier to snowball. He is a champion that dominates early and mid game and falls off only in the late game, but his lv2 potencial to one shot with ignite and passive is a big deal, and sometimes your opponent under certain matchups has to back off and let him push to not be all in'ed by him. Also he has a better sustain his Q last hit. His mana issue isn't that big also because he buys Corruption Potion in first place.

"Ekko can also wave clear from a distance, but he also trades kill potential for it." What kind of logic is this? Out of everyone if you're actually complaining about waveclear potencial and most annoying to face Ekko should be in the number one spot. And before you think I'm being bias because I'm a Zed main, I actually have better stats overall on Ekko and he's my second main. Ekko laning phase is one of the most annoying to face, and once he hits lv6 it's almost impossible to kill him unless he plays agressivly or missplays. Ekko at lv9 starts to clear waves like nothing, really. One Q will be enought. Also he starts Corruption Potion as well.

"Fizz is Fizz, push him out, he can't farm, still annoying to face tho." He can't farm? You can say that he suffers before lv6 against certain matchups, yes, but pretty much like Zed, his W grants him a pretty easy last hit anyways, and he doesn't lose mana at all if he starts Doran's Ring. But yes, overall Fizz waveclear is dependent on his E wich is main source of damage and outplay potencial, nontheless, he is one of those who hits lv6 and if he lands a ultimate on you, you're pretty much dead. We have to consider that.

"LeBlanc wants to get in your face and kill you, if she doesn't she sets herself behind." And how that isn't worst? The good LB players will be pessuring you and not using her abilities to waveclear. They will be just zoning you from the CS, only last hitting the wave to freeze it on the middle of the lane. And if you do the mistake to make it slowly push towards her, she can easly start punish you if you walk up to CS. Also, her set gank potencial is huge with her chain.

"Akali is somewhere between Ekko and Fizz." I don't have an opinion on Akali, she is always perma banned in Diamond.

"Katarina is around there as well, she doesn't really have much wave clear without putting herself in danger" That's true tought, but she actually does have a decent waveclear nonthless, and is a resourceless champion.

Overall you guys just make it sound OP like it is in reality, and also it's funny how you simply compare certain parts of the champion's kits to other champions. Like, common. We have to take a look at the whole package to actually understand.

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20182 votes

His WQ is actually 1550, but meh, details.

I think you missed the point by a little, I've faced a good bunch of Assassins of all the kinds and none proved problematic but Zed for that one reason: If I get an early advantage be it from better poke and outplay, it sticks and they get punished by losing farm to the tower or freezes, or depending on case, die.

I've never had issues with Ekko to be honest.

Zed on the other hand is just full of it. If I take better trades at level 1-2, he can still get almost all the last hits under tower due to his passive unless it's something like a caster above half but low enough for the tower to one shot.

Winning lane vs Zed doesn't look like winning a lane. I make better trades early? He just farms simply due to his passive.

It's not about who has the better wave clear but they trade for safe farming when behind. LeBlanc is my 4th most played, so I know she can be oppressive, but what happens when she can't? You outplayed her and she's forced to play safe. She can't kill you anymore unless you go up yo her and we know how she farms under tower.

Zed's W range is 650, pretty close to the range of many other mages other than stuff like artillery mages. If I try to harass him when he's further away from the wave, which all Zeds do, I put myself in a bad spot where I can't always dodge and since for Ahri for example only her Q passes through minions, that makes it a guaranteed better trade for him each time.

I mentioned his engage range at 1275 because it makes it so that he gets the edge where you can't engage on him but he can engage on you and is part of the reason, along his passive, why unless he's a bad player and gets stomped/can't farm, you don't win lane even tho you do vs every other assassin in the same circumstances.

iDarkWindDec 25, 20183 votes

What do you mean by he simplys farm due to his passive. His passive balances the fact that he sucks until lv3, unlike Yasuo or Talon other famous AD mid laners champions, after that his passive does not even matter anymore, because he could kill last hit under turrent like any standart AD Assassin. If that's your problem, then Fizz shouldn't be in your list? He has the tools to farm under turrent "safety" too with his W that has no drawn backs. What I'm saying is: Your point makes no sense, for real. If Zed takes a bad trade it means he can't play agressive anymore, and of course he will be under turrent farming, but if he can't recall and keeps taking poke while trying to farm, at the least, the caster minions he will eventually have to back and lose a minion wave or risk to die.

I don't know, I still don't get your point. Zed's passive does indeed is great for last hitting, but it just really helps during the lv1 and lv2 where he's very weak. after lv3, with or without his passive he would still be able to last hit minions under turrent pretty easly due to his AD assassin nature.

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20182 votes

Fizz is a bit of a special case, he's on the list because until level 6, he has to chose between safe farm or initiate, he can't go from one to another and he can't break a freeze without getting himself in trouble due to how his Troll Pole works, so against him, you free and he can't do much, while against champs that would rather have you freeze, like LB/Kat so she has more minions than you, you shove and she can't do much.

Even after level 3, even with his AD nature, he can't take every last hit under tower even with his abilities, but his passive solves that, but just like with Fizz, how you deal with that thing? Normally, you freeze, but you can't freeze versus Zed, as his WEQ breaks any freeze.

Also, you said that "he takes poke when under tower", but did you forget he can poke back, and his combo hurts more than simple poke you can dish out unless you combo him, but depending on who you are, that can fail hard.

Plus, Fizz needs to actively use his W each time and if he misses one, for whatever reason, he loses the rest of the wave, Zed never has to worry about it missing. Complaining about Fizz W would be like complaining about Annie Q or Cass E, they can miss, Zed can never miss, and if he does, he just throws E to secure it.

Now I hope this will finally solve it so you can understand: his high engage and poke range allow him to break freezes and still initiate on you from long range, while also having an easy time farming under tower if you shove a lane, both cases being win-win for him, you make a freeze and he breaks it, you lose farm under tower since you don't have his last hit assistant, but if you shove to his tower, you get yourself into a gankable position while he still has the range to poke you back.

There is no "win-lose" for Zed, it's only "win-win" no matter what way you look at it.

UmbrałDec 25, 20186 votes

LMAOO silver 4 ahri player with negative wr complaining about zed im deceased

l love AhriDec 25, 20185 votes

Several people already gave you correct explanations which you reject them all. I don't even want to explain it anymore

Just what I'd expect from an Ahri player. Uses glacial augment on her too (even though electrocute is better).

I love cowboysDec 25, 20184 votes

Remember when people said Zed was the gold standard for being a fair assassin with the most counterplay?

Man those were the days.

DracocrashDec 25, 20184 votes

Honestly, a lot of issues could be solved if they removed zed's free farm passive. It needs to go.

IP MasquerenaDec 25, 20183 votes

I said that so many times, yet apparently, "he needs it in case the opponent punishes him", at least that what the boards say.

But in that case, I say that we should give every champion the same passive. He'll no longer be unfairly safe if everyone is unfairly safe to farm under tower. Problem solved.

Ðu Šhiedah Dec 25, 20184 votes

As a Talon main i agree with u in pre-season 9 and season 8 Zed became a Talon counter Zed can farm with Q and poke ur shit out with WEQ lol then they nerf mages? hope i see incoming zed nerfs ")

UmbrałDec 25, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spirit DevilI ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ktAfpeZN,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2018-12-25T18:50:09.668+0000)

As a Talon main i agree with u in pre-season 9 and season 8 Zed became a Talon counter Zed can farm with Q and poke ur shit out with WEQ lol then they nerf mages? hope i see incoming zed nerfs ")

WHAT LOL TALON legit shits on zed bc his burst is stronger, early level is stronger and his ult counters your ult. if you're losing to zed as talon you're just garbage

Ðu Šhiedah Dec 25, 20182 votes

stfu please :) watch ll stylish u moron :3

and to explan so u stop being like an idiot

Zed can dodge Talon's W so easy and he can farm with Q under the tower till level 3 or 4 then he will use his combo on Talon :P and it seems like that u want to do anything to make sure that zed won't get nerfed are u? :)

SxodaDec 25, 20182 votes

I'd disagree with you. His w which would be his best trading ability, is on a 24 second cooldown. If he does a full combo on you without ult, landing everything, he brings you down to half hp. Every 24 seconds. Now look at a champion like kassadin, viktor, swain, talon, orianna etc. Orianna can do her full combo with auto's inbetween and do the same damage, more or less. and she can do it every 8 seconds or so. So three times for every one time zed does his combo. If you bring lane and minions into the equation, in order to optimize his damage he needs to hit the champion with q while not hitting any minions, and he needs to use his only escape tool to bring himself behind minions and take damage from them. His long w cd makes him weak, he needs to sit back and play on his enemies' mistakes in most match ups due to his garbage early game. If it bothers you, all you have to do is break the freeze and force him to step out. When he uses his w you know he's useless so abuse him if he steps up.

Trundle BundleDec 26, 20182 votes

Probably worth noting that Orianna can't even do her full combo 3 times in that time frame without going oom and losing all lane presence at 5/6, and straight up can't do it 3 times in that time frame at 3/4. Also they're probably not going to be trading while there are no minions in the lane, which come in waves of 30 seconds, giving Zed plenty of time to be none for the worse.

And if she's actually trying to duel him post that... Why? Unless you've dominated the lane by then, it's no longer yours to win as Ori, and if Zed's having the slightest bit of trouble, he's ganking top or bot with barely any of the fear an Ori would have making that journey.

And this logic feeds into a fair number of other mages.