I have Ghostblade + Duskblade + Guardian Angel + Lord Dominik's Regards Tristana has no defensive items aside from Tabi.
Perfect combo on Tristana (R + AA + Q + AA + W), no Buster Shot, no jump, and I just plain cannot do enough damage to kill her through Janna's shield + Locket. She just turrets me down after.
This is pretty ridiculous
PhDs Nuts43 votes"As a 7-5-7 Tristana (edit: with Barrier) being protected by Janna with Ardent+Locket, I shouldn't be one-shot by an assassin through the shields."
Tristana and Talon had the exact same kill participation and Trist ended the game with 20 more cs. Not exactly sure why the 2v1 should be in favor of the 1. Trist also took Barrier that game.
And yes, an ADC is never out of position with their support against one person. An ADC and support can absolutely be out of position in a teamfight, but if the only person attacking the ADC is the assassin, and the ADC is right next to the support, and nothing else is hitting the ADC, they aren't out of position relative to the assassin.
T4underbolt6 votesGreat. So one player can brainlessly press 3 buttons to save his ADC but I have to do complicated combos, I can get peeled off and still not get a kill. Then what is the point of playing assassin. Every tank will do better job because tanks can nearly 100-0 enemy ADC anyway while being immortal. The only assassin that actually can do it properly is shaco and khazix due to their stealth being not revealed by control ward.
Pika Fox15 votesJust an idea.... maybe play your role like youre supposed to and catch people out solo or when theyre mispositioned while their team is busy?
Youre an assassin. Doesnt mean if you dive 1v5 and manage to touch the ADC you win. Janna is a defensive support, her job is to literally counter your job. Play smarter.
Jerry SeinfeId3 votespress R > Press Q > press W > AA (or a variation on it)
fuck that's hard....
T4underbolt1 votesConsidering I'm meele, I have cast times and delays on abilities and all parts of my abilities have to hit while support brainlessly press all buttons at once with no cast times point and click, then yeah it's hard compared to support.
Jerry SeinfeId2 votesLet me start off by saying we're talking about talon's case right now because noone els was mentioned on the assassin side.
Q: A point and click ability, which auto crits at a certain range. let's say in an ideal case this is the "auto attack" and not the dash. W: I swear to god if you're missing this in melee range, idk wtf you've been smoking. This shit is so easy to use and functions as a pretty decent poke ability in lane. E: Useless in this case aside from the fact that if this whole scenario takes place in the jungle and talon is a good talon he'll get a guaranteed empowered Q instead of the dash. R: You either use this mid fight to deal dmg to enemies around you or you use it to go in and when you go in most blades will hit. edit: Passive: the "delay" in talons kit, it's not really delay if you just have to hit all your abilities first. It's just the end of your combo. And guess what? It's one of those dreaded, braindead auto attacks.
I'm no talon main, I barely play him anymore even, but i have played him. He's not that hard. And janna is quite strong, she's got a low skillfloor but there were still 2 people and Janna is designed to counter burst. If you want a champ to be braindead, any champ can be braindead. Don't talk about having to hit your abilities when in melee range none of them are really dodgeable.
Anonagon9 votesNot exactly sure why the 2v1 should be in favor of the 1.
This mentality is why ADCs and supports have powercrept to the level they are at right now. The entire conceit that makes the ADC/Support botlane meta "balanced" is the idea that with the single lane's gold and experience divided between the two of them, they would be weak enough that a solo laner who played well could 1v2 them successfully. Therefore, in an ideal scenario, the solo lane assassin who does a perfect combo should be able to kill his target 1v2. It would be reasonable for the ADC/Support to survive and kill the solo laner if they outplayed them, but that's not what happened in this situation, at least if the OP is to be believed.
Pika Fox16 votesAn assassin isnt supposed to 1v2 against a protective support and ADC, especially when you target the tankier of the two. Janna + Trist you target Janna first if you have any choice. Either way, both arent the best option as both have disengage ults.
Its better to wait until either are alone.
Anonagon3 votesNo. An assassin is supposed to be able to get a kill on their target through a protective support if they play well, at least until very late in the game (when the experience advantage of having been in a solo lane is gone). If the OP is to be believed, the assassin in this case did everything right (optimal damage combo) while the adc and support did nothing special (no Trist W or ult, according to OP). The assassin should be able to get a kill in this case. If the ADC or support do something to genuinely "outplay" the assassin, or if the assassin messes up their combo, sure they shouldn't get a kill. But if an assassin who does everything right can't kill their target when ahead (which he is by virtue of solo experience, if not in kills), then there is literally no point to pick an assassin at all.
Pika Fox18 votesThats literally not true and has never been true.
Janna has a shield, a knock up, a slow, and a knockback + heal.
Add ardent and locket ontop of that.... and why do you think you should ever get a kill on who shes supporting? You target the janna in this case, not the ADC.
The Talon did nothing right and chose a poor fight. Even if he got everything off as he said, ITS STILL A 1v2 WITH A PROTECTIVE SUPPORT.
Seriously, you dont misplay then complain "i dived 1v5 and died even though i hit the adc y rito i demand i win".
Also, he likely wasnt that far ahead. Trist had plenty of kills, and likely more CS. And because trist was positive and likely had good CS, janna likely had plenty of gold too.
This is just a typical "i have more kills why cant i smash head on keyboard win" complaint. He wasnt nearly as far ahead as he wanted to think.
My Waifu Vanilla14 votesThe biggest misplay is engaging a 1v2 and then blaming them for living. 9 times out of 10 in these complaints the assassin is the one that starts the fight in the 1v2. They have all the control over the situation. If he doesn't pull the trigger then nothing happens. HE picks the fight.
Mysticman893 votesWorth noting that shared experience isn't actually divided equally, and actually spawn a bit of extra xp so it ends up being 65.2% xp each for two people, so the total xp would still be higher even in a perfectly played scenario where all 3 champs were ideally balanced with respect to gold/xp.
Anonagon3 votesI'm perfectly aware of that. It doesn't at all change things, because the experience both duo laners get is still significantly lower, and it only takes a few levels' advantage to really enable someone to 1v2. Just ask top laners. Top laners who get ahead can pretty easily 1v2 the enemy top and jungle, but hilariously can't do the same to ADC/Supports despite the fact that the jungle and top are getting solo gold and xp while the duo lane isn't. The ADC and support positions are so overtuned at the moment that its easier to 1v2 a top laner and a jungler who are 2 levels down than it is to 1v2 an ADC and support who are 2 levels down, despite them having far less gold.
Mysticman895 votesAdc/sup are probably overtuned yes, but that's a different statement from implying 1 solo laner = 2 duo laners in an ideally balanced perfectly played scenario.
If both people are perfectly csing, the solo laner and adc are going to have equal gold, while the support is going to have their share of ambient gold, plus whatever they got from their support item, so gold advantage is to the duo. The duo ends up with 30.4% more experience as well, although what matters is levels, so that xp advantage may still leave them a level or two behind.
Reddit tells me the average gold value of a level up is 532.91, so it comes to whether the gold advantage the duo has outweighs the level disadvantage they have. For them both being 1 level down, that means the supports gold would need to be around 1.1k at that point, or 2.2k if they're both two levels down.
Looking through most of my match history, I generally make at least 7k on supports by 30 minutes, so it seems fairly safe to say that the gold advantage of the duo should pretty much always outweigh the level disadvantage, assuming all players are playing perfectly and directly translating their stats into combat effectiveness.
In practice of course that's not the case, and the relative value of xp versus gold is quite champ dependent (supports often chosen precisely because they don't value gold as much, and adcs don't mind the support xp leech since they value gold more) which complicates the analysis somewhat. Overall game tuning doesn't change based on who is picked where though, so in principle I don't think 1 solo laner should inherently be equal to 2 duo laners just on a numbers basis. (I think it's pretty clear that janna mid shouldn't be on equal footing with trist adc+talon support for example.)
Don't get me wrong though, they probably do need to tune down marksman/many conventional supports somewhat, just that being able to 1v2 in perfect play only makes sense for fairly significant leads, and it'd take some pretty harsh penalties to xp sharing to change that.
xJLx MCHammer24 votesLIES
You should be able to burn through the shields. Pretty sure you aren't including things like Heal, Exhaust, Ultimate, and return damage.
Also, I don't see a problem with a champion not being able to 2v1...That's just me though
CPU Lyrica23 votesGood. you deserved to die in that Segment. You ran at a decently Fed ADC, who was NEXT to their pealing support, and thought you could get a cheese kill. let me tell you how that SHOULD have gone.
You run in, Ult. they stack shields Ult goes away, shields deleted, some damage to trist. Janna Q's you. knocking up and preventing more damage. Janna W's you. Preventing escape via Slow. Keep in mind that trist is still there, and angry.
You picked a bad fight, thinking you could 2v1 against one of the strongest ADC's in the meta, and one of the BEST shield supports in the game rn.
you made a BAD decision. DEAL WITH IT.
Colton14720 votesSupports are suppose to protect their teammates and carries. They are doing their job correctly.
Chess119 votes2>1
Scary Door18 votesSo you're telling me that you couldn't get a kill in a 1v2 because the support did their job?
This community amazes me.
Also, your score isn't the exclusive representation of your power. However, I propose the following:
League now has a replay system, let's see your video evidence of what happened so that we can assess the game situation and whether or not your complaint is at all valid.
SpaghettiVase1 votesPosts like these make me glad Riot doesn't listen to Gameplay very much. The amount of sheer entitlement gets in the way of legitimate balancing ideas.
ModWulf Helhammer15 votesSo are you upset about not being able to kill her, or that she was able to kill you after?
Yenn13 votes[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z47o0Ah8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-04T03:35:30.933+0000)
So are you upset about not being able to kill her, or that she was able to kill you after?
As an assassin, I should be able to kill an unaware and out of position carry while fed.
ModWulf Helhammer33 votesExcept if the Janna is able to shield her, that doesn't sound like she's out of position. That's right where she should be.
Daedric Etwahl10 votesAs a Sona player, an I feel I should have meaning when protecting my ADC. Like, an assassin shouldn't get to oneshot my ADC through my proper protection just because.
But on the other hand, why would I ever NOT be by my ADC's side? It feels liks such a ridiculous catch-22 that'sdifficult to find a medium both sides can be content with.
Regardless, I think most enchanters are generally okay when it comes to assassins, it's primarily Janna and Lulu that can so easily deny them.
T4underbolt3 votesProper protection :D. You mean pressing 3 buttons and viola, your ADC has shield equal to his full hp bar and you can do nothing rest of the fight because it's 4v5 now.
TheScholarlyDude5 votesIf you indeed got to burst her down through her shield wouldn't you be effectively mashing 3 buttons? This isn't going to be a long drawn out fight. Also you keep saying "out of position" which is factually not true. You just can't handle you're painfully wrong here.
You made a poor decision.
Daedric Etwahl3 votesNo matter what I have to do as Sona, I'm properly protecting my ADC. If I do my job perfectly, why should a non-fed assassin get to ignore my efforts?
Buuuut as I said, how often is an assassin honestly going to find an ADC without his Enchanter?
Like I said, catch-22. The assassin is kinda reliant on me fucking up, but at the same time an assassin being able to ignore your protective efforts done properly would feel super shitty too...
T4underbolt1 votesdude seriously. You are literally insulting anyone in this world who has really made any effort. Even picking up a trash from the ground and putting it to garbage can can be called an effort. But playing enchanter support - never ever. Y
Daedric Etwahl1 votesI'm not sayiong that protecting my ADC as Sona takes more effort than Zed has to put in to take out that same ADC. Enchanters, ESPECIALLY Janna and Lulu, just have a massive leg up on the assassins right now.
Dunno why you're getting so angry, I'm agreeing that Assassins need some help. Just also saying that it would be just as problematic to make most Enchanters helpless against an Assassin coming for their ADC.
T4underbolt1 votesWell I miss times when this game was more about your own skill and if you were significantly better than enemy you could carry unless enemy shaken tilt off and as 5 people cooperated together to stop me and win by this. Lose like this felt like I actually didn't do good enough and got outplayed by enemy team effort at the end so I need to improve. Now the only champions allowed to free win carry are tanks and ADCs with a company of broken supports at their sides.
Daedric Etwahl2 votesI get what you mean, I really do. Despite maining Sona I offmain Yorick and Urgot, and I've gotten fed to hell but just been unable to carry because my teammates just can't keep up plenty of times.
Yenn7 votes[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z47o0Ah8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T03:37:39.562+0000)
Except if the Janna is able to shield her, that doesn't sound like she's out of position. That's right where she should be.
? ? ?
By this logic, an ADC is never in a bad position as long as the support is with them. Which isn't true. If I managed to walk up to your ADC's face and auto it without Q for a gap closer, it's badly positioned.
TheScholarlyDude15 votes? ? ?
By this logic, an ADC is never in a bad position as long as the support is with them. Which isn't true. If I managed to walk up to your ADC's face and auto it without Q for a gap closer, it's badly positioned.
For an ADC & support to be out of position.... there has to be more than just Talon about.
Dasdi963 votes[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z47o0Ah8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T03:37:39.562+0000)
Except if the Janna is able to shield her, that doesn't sound like she's out of position. That's right where she should be.
Except for the fact that janna's shield has no downtime so there is no opportunity to go in. You have to brute force through the shield.
ModWulf Helhammer21 votesAnd I would agree with the fact that Janna's shields are probably too strong.
But I would also agree with the fact that trying to 2v1, with one of the two being a class (and champion!) entirely built on protecting, is probably not a good idea, and more often than not, is going to fail, as it should.
SwiftKitten881 votes[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z47o0Ah8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T03:37:39.562+0000)
Except if the Janna is able to shield her, that doesn't sound like she's out of position. That's right where she should be.
this... i mean yes.. you SHOULD be able to kill and out of postion adc... but like he said... if janna was there.. she was NOT out of position... if you engage a 1v2 that's you being stupid...
and yes i main an assassin.. this OP is crazy if he thinks assassins can 1v2 or that an adc with a support near them is "out of position..."
hoganftw15 votesassassins in 2018 lul
Durzaka14 votesSo... because you werent able to kill an ADC in a 1v2 when the +1 is a support who excels are damage protection specifically, and also had a damage protection item. And im sure that Trist had either barrier or heal for extra protection.
Id be more worried about the game if you could actually succeed in killing her there.
Yenn3 votesSo... because you werent able to kill an ADC in a 1v2 when the +1 is a support who excels are damage protection specifically, and also had a damage protection item. And im sure that Trist had either barrier or heal for extra protection.
Id be more worried about the game if you could actually succeed in killing her there.
'I'd be worried if the assassin could actually assassinate'
Are you serious? Note that Janna didn't peel me or ult, she literally just shielded.
Durzaka11 votesYes, I am actually serious.
An assassin should not be able to simply assassinate someone under the full protect of a support character.
If Trist had survived on her own and continued to kill you because of her self peel, then I would be siding with you. But you were unable to kill Trist through 3 shields specifically designed to stop an assassin from killing someone. IE working as intended.
flibitydoo7 votesThis guys is right. Pretty much everyone has stated this to death on the rest of this thread, but the whole "I should be able to 1 v 2 and come out with a kill or doubles when roughly even on gold" is clearly illogical.
If you want to actually complain, make up a better scenario, like saying you were 2 v 2ing, your friendly sion/poppy/malphite charged in, janna spent every single cooldown on that tank to peel (while trist did the same), you swooped in and tried to kill trist when everyones CDs are down but failed. If something like that happens, then you have the right to complain if you lost since it's a fair game at this point but like the argument of "it is unfair that I can't just pick a guy to die and they die regardless of context" is just silly.
TheScholarlyDude14 votesAre you really complaining that you can't 2 v 1 an ADC and a support when the gold income is close'ish?
Pandemic Punch12 votesSo you can't assassinate someone in a 1v2
OK
Grokmir7 votesAre all assassin players as incredibly delusional as the ones in this thread?
I don't know what exactly happened in op's case, but assuming the botlane played correctly, they definitely should have won it. By the looks of it, OP made a bad choice because he got overconfident and doesn't want to accept that he fucked up.
Also some...interesting...fellow said both bot laners should equal one solo laner. This is obviously false in every way imaginable and even in theory they might only be equal in gold income, which is still a dumb statement. This person somehow forgot about kits, items, and about how stats and gold income works. Its actually impressive how delusional he is.
The only times solo laners should 1v2 is if they are stupid fed or outplay them. Any other time the solo laner is busted and needs nerfed.
Evil Yasuo5 votesplaying Talon.... That's your 1st mistake. He's garbage AND dusk is getting nerfed. If you think these supposed "buffs" are going to be anything more than 5dmg to 5.5dmg, you're trppin'. Riot hates assassins and that's just how it is. I've retired Talon. I mained him for 7 years but I thought it was time to move on.
cocacolalips2 votesyou are bronze/silver, there are talon one tricks all the way to challenger, you are simply not very good zzz
Daddy Ants5 votesTrying to use your poor decision making to cry imbalance.
You were playing an Assassin.
Assassin's fall off like a brick late game.
Your job in the late game is to get solo picks or to split push.
You seriously expected to dive into a Tristana and Janna, 2 hyper scaling champions and expect to win the fight?
Man I'm silver and I know to keep the hell away from a Tristana Janna in the late game.
[{quoted}](name=hi ìm groot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z47o0Ah8,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-03-04T10:29:57.821+0000)
So you're mad there's counterplay to your kit? 0.o Because thats alot of CD's used just to stop you from one shotting someone. And you shouldnt be trying to assassinate her with the janna nearby with those off CD
The fact he tried to dive a 
when she had a 
is hilarious.
Ninja Assassin4 votesDid you get the melee q in your combo?
sobi9993 votesIt's 2v1 what do you expect? These assassin circle jerks are always the most stupid out here on the boards. Just because their champ is assassin they believe that they should be able to one-shot any person who they can reach disregarding the fact that it is 1v 2 or if there is a support nearby with shield + Solari ( 120sec CD) and still want to be able to one shot the adc who at the very least has tabi. Talon wasn't even that fed compared to trist and there is no mention of cs as well. Lastly trist is known for her stupid utility (jumps) + cc Ult but NO we want to blame the shield janna. I do believe that shields are up all the damn time but in the current meta it is the tanks that are dominating bot lane. Only shield support janna has a high winrate because of her crowd control and that is what tanks excel in.
Bisaknosp3 voteswell 1v2 obviously you were overconfident af and fucked up now you fail to admit it and blame something else xdd