This season has completely neutered skill expression, can we get a new balance team?

Yenn··240 votes·24,469 views

The amount of damage we have right now is absurd. There isn't time to outplay your opponent; they mouse over you, press their abilities, and one of you dies in the next 3-4 seconds. We no longer have drawn out trades (or often any trades at all, just all ins), and whether you win the duel is often completely binary, based on who can 100 to 0 the other first.

This season has completely fucked up the game, I really don't understand why the game is being taken in this direction.

154 Comments

Real Sexy Yoona69 votes

The fact that they play-tested Zoe and was completely fine with her release defines what League has become. Even taking her RNG-shenanigans out of the picture that gave everyone cancer, Zoe is anything but a champion that League of Legends wanted or needed.
Her entire play style is simply fishing for a brain dead one shot with little to no risks. When they are sleeping, you think it takes skill to land a full range Q? You think you are a god when you one shot someone with a full range paddle star, when in their pov, the paddle star came out of a wall in fog of war with 0.2 seconds to react? Her design is garbage. Not even recyclable garbage, pure garbage.

I mean this is the core of the issue. Like how your survival against one shotting champs (like Zoe) is often decided whether they fuck up their skills or not- NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU DOING ANY FORM OF OUTPLAY. **One **of the many reasons ADCs started taking TP instead of heal was because heal virtually does nothing in situations where you get one shot. Especially with ignite buffed, you die whether you heal or not. And the idea being, when you respawn, you at least have your TP to get back to lane and farm.

Velasan6 votes

I honestly think part of the problem with her design and Riot on AP mid laners in general is their answer to anything is turn them into a burst mage. Don't know what to do with the champ? Make them a burst mage. They do extended magic damage? Can't have that, make them a burst mage.

Zoe would be fine if she didn't have really high damage. By that I mean if her design was low damage, but you would help your team by fishing for hits of your sleep and then you NEEDED those spell drops to help boost your mediocre damage then she would be way more balanced.

I still don't know if she would be good for the game, but high CC, safety, and high damage should not all be on the same champion.

Hethalean13 votes

I think the fact that they took multiple things out of her kit and she's still fine is pretty scary.

Astorine55 votes

This season is getting worse by the fortnight, anti early jg ganks made it worse and there is no champion balance.

HippoPlays14 votes

That was a great usage of the word. And completely accurate as well.

GigglesO11 votes

I mean that is just your tencent(s)

Shleelpboy1 votes

More like building one item gets you aleast a triple depending on your team (COUGH COUGH YASUO COUGH COUGH)

Astorine1 votes

{quoted}

More like building one item gets you aleast a triple depending on your team (COUGH COUGH YASUO COUGH COUGH)

Lmao true

Shleelpboy2 votes

Ikr yasuo just builds stormrazors and phantom dancer and ur set all you need is to land ur q's. even when shitting on him in laning phase he'll still be fed in late game its ridiculous, just give him a new kit or a new passive why the fuck a passive shield maybe a tank could use that not yasuo you don't need a shield for a slippery champion the hell?

Eeyore40 votes

Remember the days when LeBlanc was the only mobile champion with burst damage, back when even Akali, Kassadin and Katarina needed to poke you down first? Remember when "trading" meant trading damage rather than kills? Remember when champions like Kassadin were considered OP because of their ability to deny you the ability to "trade". Can you even imagine that there was a time that a champion being able to silence you was what made them OP, rather than their ability to kill you? Remember when there was no such thing as an AD Assassin? It was either AD-DPS or AP-burst, and defensive items offered passives accordingly. I mean, what is there to even buy versus AD Assassins other than Zhonya's, and if you're an AD champion, what then?

https://imgur.com/cqBYDWR

LibroMastro35 votes

Fire ghostcrawler and replace the entire balance team, if they dont do that this game is gonna end up like WoW, you all are gonna play it once the new season starts and then quit after a month

Stevev455 votes

Too late.

I Like Teemo28 votes

new ballance team? @Yenn this is what riot has always wanted and never had the ability to really finalize until now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR_K7gqUuDI

BLIGHTBRINGER25 votes

It doesn't feel like Riot actually want this game to be balanced, as I assume it would be somewhat boring from their perspective.

Warlord Rhinark4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N8spnE9m,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-15T10:21:24.740+0000)

It doesn't feel like Riot actually want this game to be balanced, as I assume it would be somewhat boring from their perspective.

WOOO LCS AMIRITE

/s

BLIGHTBRINGER12 votes

They do love seeing those "flashy" plays.

Thilmer19 votes

I have lost hope in this season.

Just wait and see if they can balance something in preseason 9. If the game doesn't die before, obviously.

Power Cosmic18 votes

It does seem they are making the game more of an arcade beat em up.

Sona Ping16 votes

I think it's time to stop blaming everything on the Balance Team. There are a lot of design choices being made here and directional decisions about the game that are resulting in this.

3TWarrior2 votes

the balance team (and whoever is in charge of them) are in charge of numbers and those numbers affect the feel of the game

remember when graves could one-shot a minion wave at level 3?

Darkone70012 votes

I understand what you are saying, it just feels like they do not listen to us, and I get it, why would riot listen to the "Reddit knows balance" community, but they have ignored key issues for large swaths of time despite us pleading with them. I just can't have sympathy for them right now. I'm not suggesting I could even do a remotely better job, but I would listen to the player base if I was in their shoes.

JRobin312 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N8spnE9m,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-06-15T10:32:17.621+0000)

I think it's time to stop blaming everything on the Balance Team. There are a lot of design choices being made here and directional decisions about the game that are resulting in this.

I agree. I mean the balance team has to pick up the pieces of the 'change for change sake' game design philosophy. How is a balance team supposed to deal with the obsession of implementing radical questionable 'cool' new design ideas all the time? The idea that the balance team is supposed to work out these kinks on PBE is a joke. Unfortunately, the onus for fixing stuff always falls on them. But doesn't the balance team weigh in on any changes before they are made? Well sure, but who can tell that radical changes are balanced before release? It's cross your fingers and hope it doesn't screw the game too badly, then go in with your med kits and sew things up while being flamed by the patients you're trying to save. And then things like everyone doing too much damage is technically balanced. So now what? You have to do other people's jobs too! Just saying... like Runes Reforged... it made a lot of designers happy for a few months and the balance team is still cleaning up the pollution from that mess - like minions in a Singed cloud.

ThePikol7 votes

Riot made everyone deal this kind of damage to have flashy plays on LCS. Now LCS is boring because pro players know that everyone can one shot everyone so they play super safe. One mistake there means death. While at the same time normal games are absurd because of that damage creep. Thay broke both pro and normal games

BrokenRayquaza7 votes

They need to slowly nerf everything rather than buff it. The game will suck because it will take a while to nerf everything down but once all the nerfing is done then we can have a balanced and fun game.

GayFluffyUnicorn9 votes

Only way to safe this game is to revert it to season 5 when all that shit started. Keep some good reworks like poppy and sion. keep drakes, rift herald and other than that start from new.

SilentSauce7 votes

tl;dr: Riot Nerfed skill expression by, in one example, removing champs core to the ADC champion pool.

Everything I say here should be taken generally, as in I am not targeting one specific champion or change nor am I making blanket statements regarding all champs (e.g., there may be a few exceptions to what I say here, but I recognize that and don't want to get into corner-cases). Additionally, this is all my opinion albeit I do like to base my opinions on reason.

I'll start by saying: I believe that a squishy (e.g., mage or ADC) should have the potential to be one-shot. I say this as an ADC main.

There are many champions who have the potential to one-shot a squishy and rightfully so, having assassins in the game can be a healthy thing as they do have counter play (believe it or not). However, how you can counter an assassin isnt always entirely in the squishy's control. Although positioning plays a huge factor in not getting blown up (probably about 50%), having a suport or teammate with a locket, knights vow, and/or CC can completely shut down an assassin. At lower elo, this is primarily why assassins are significantly stronger. As an ADC, there are only a select few assassins I dread playing against, and usually its because of the ADC I chose (e.g., I picked first), I wont get into which ones but I will primarily mention target able and/or undodgable abilities that take less than 0.5 seconds (and that isn't necessary just an arbitrary number, half a second seems a reasonable time to react given how fast a team fight really happens, albeit give or take a few tenths of a second) can feel a little unfair at times (e.g., Zoe, Leblanc post re-re-work, and Rengar post re-re-work to name a few). These few, however, can not be fully encompassed within 10 bans (especially since there can be double bans) which leads to them always potentialy being in just about every game.

As for skill expression, I feel as though support is one of the most skill expressive lanes. A support has to be useful, while (in most cases) doing little damage which is not an easy thing to do. They have to babysit a useless champion through the early game, the ADC, all while warding key objectives for the rest of the team. This could just be bias as I am an ADC main and understand the importance of a good support. However, there are some absolutely brain-dead "support" champions in the game. In 8.13, with regards to the Janna and Lulu shield changes, I am very happy to see them step into this direction, allowing more skilled players who can react to spells and accordingly shield a player to be rewarded while the rest fall behind.

Similarly, mid lane is also one of the most skill expressive lanes in the game. A good mid laner has to play in a lane, with two gank avenues, the highest burst match ups in the game (during lane phase), and in some cases can be required to roam frequently (e.g., into the jungle, for deep wards, to gank side lanes, etc.). Then you have champs like Talon who can hop over walls, making roaming a joke; can go into stealth, negating a lot of abilities in some cases; and do at least some, if not a lot, of burst damage to a target who sees Talon coming. Leblanc, as another example, wherein her combo is now completely un-dogable (q + q + auto for electrocute OR w/e). I'm no expert on mid, so I'll stop my discussion here.

However, and I know I'll get flame for this, ADC is one of the, if not the hardest role to play in all of League of Legends. An ADC has to suffer through a weak early game wherein a player must show a great measure of patience to not trade/engage when playing a late game ADC such as kog, twitch, jinx, etc. Patience, believe it or not, is certainly a skill found in higher-level players and not found, to the same extent, in lower divisions. Additionally, for an ADC to do well they must land as many auto attacks in a 5v5 teamfight as possible while dodging anything and everything that is trying to kill them. As an ADC you are the primary target of the enemy team in late game fights, as the ADC should do the most consistent damage. What other role is required to play with base HP, be the most targeted player on their team in fights, and is required to output high damage (if not the most damage based on team composition). ADC players reach the highest APM of any role during team fights and those clicks arent' just spam; each click can determine if you live, die, and/or do damage. Imagine you are a kog'maw with 2.5 attack speed (not too high for someone taking lethal tempo), in order to do maximum damage you must perform an action (e.g., click or button press) a minimum of 7 times per second* (420 APM). Just for reference, top Starcraft players peak at 450-550 (these stats are readily available, couldnt fine them for LOL). Obviously this is best-case scenario, and pros are pros for a reason, but just this fact alone in cojunction with positioning, knowing mechanics of your ADC, and knowing what can and cant kill you as a squishy champion puts the highest demand of skill on an ADC compared to most lanes/champs.

But ya ok, ADC's take skill... so what? How is Riot diminishing that? The new ADC changes have removed the ADC play style for a majority of ADCs, except for a few cases such as rage-blade users and Ezreal. Looking at the top played ADC's this patch: Morde, Yasuo, Vlad, and Lulu just to name a few (Not even considering the plurality of other not ADC champs played in pro play). This ADC change simply removed champs from the ADC pool. Yes I could still play Kog, Ezreal, and Kai'sa but what if I told you, as any other laner, you could only play X, Y and Z champ; the rest where just not worth playing because the items they build just throw gold away. You would be pissed and think skill expression is being removed by limiting the lane (see below regarding botlane champ diversity).

Many crit ADC's did require a great amount of skill, even Tristana. Tristana's W, when used by a skilled Trist player, can be used to completely negate an ability, whereas it can get you killed instantly if the player is a novice to Trist. This ability has the potential to save teammates or your life and can be completely screwed up based purely on the skill of the Trist player. However, due to the ADC items, Trist is not very good.

Similar examples as the above should be obvious (e.g., Sivir E, Lucian E (although Lucian is pretty decent with Essence Reaver), Vayne Q/E, etc.), wherein I used Trist purely for example. I am not purely saying skill expression died with 8.12 botlane changes, but the above are used purely for example of a recent change nerfing skill expression.

Anyways, I'm open to any and all criticism, discussion and/or flame. I genuinely love the game and have played it for years, however due to recent patches completely gutting champs I have dedicated hundreds of games towards I feel less inclined to play (or play anything but some kill-lane bot lane).

7 times per second comes from (a) + (click) + (move click) + (a) + (click) + (move click) = 6 commands (within 1 second), plus an additional 1/46 = 1 (rounding down) because its not 2.00 attackspeed, its 2.5 so it would average to be about 7-8 APS.


In response to a few counterpoints to ADC's in the current meta and them not requiring buffs I have read in other threads (excluding ones not effected or benefited indirectly from 8.12): Q: But shields are a dumb mechanic. A: How else does a squishy survive an assassin then? Shields an essential mechanic to the game and have been throughout its existence for many champs. Do I think they are a bit over-tuned? Yes, but only slightly. As previously mentioned, I support changes like Janna's E being a decaying shield and would point to that example as good game design for shields moving forward.

Q: But this is the most diverse botlane we have seen in years. A: Diversity in a lane isn't always something to be strived for, especially if that includes ostracizing an entire group of champions who have played a core role in League of Legends for years; champions who do damage by auto attacking. Yes there are options such as guinsoos on-hit builds for kog'maw, but those builds where already viable prior to 8.12, and in some cases, better than crit champs. Now we have Vlad, Morde, Yas, and Lulu bot. Players who have played bot for a while, who have enjoyed the play style of an attack damage carry which is a play style not seen in any other lanes (bar a few exceptions like Gnar, etc.), now feel punished when playing champs who build crit due to the above reasons. Diversity is nice, and I think lanes such as top, for example, should have a combination of bruisers and tanks, as well as a few odd-ball picks, however it should not be done by dismantling a lane and role that has been a core part in both competitive and noncompetitive games for years.

Q: ADC's where too strong before. Take example from MSI where RNG just force fed Yzi and won. ADC's must be too strong if they can just solo carry. A: As a counterpoint to the recent MSI 2018 tournament heavily favoring ADC's in RNG's case, I would recommend watching FNC vs GMB at worlds 2017 wherein Levi was just force fed and carried against a team they where heavily favored to lose against. As mentioned previously, ADC's are weak early. They can be punished early (pre 10 mins) by jungle and/or mid pressure as they do relatively low damage compared to many 1-item spike/mid-early game champions. Additionally, ADC's have the potential to die instantly in a teamfight. Playing an ADC in a 5v5 teamfight is one of the most micro intensive roles requiring some of the highest accuracy regarding mouse clicks wherein one misclick, can spell disaster for you and your team.

The above where just some common points I have seen circulating the forums these days. Obviously there are more reasons as to why ADC's are weak, and I'll try to respond to anyone making a good, thoughtful point either for or against my opinion.

BlueBilberry2 votes

A well thought out and reasoned response - I sincerely hope that some Rioter actually reads this.

(I do disagree with the idea of Janna's shield nerf being a good thing. And this is speaking as a support main. Janna in many ways was the "canary in the coal mine" for the support role. If she is doing too well, then it should have told the devs that the rest of the supports are in a rough spot. With this nerf, however, the devs have basically shot the canary before it could stop singing.)

SilentSauce2 votes

I think the main skill that separates a good Janna from a bad one is when to use the shield. These nerfs shouldn't effect Jannas who use their E reactively, which is why I would say it promotes skill. This upcoming change would have been way better instead of the E cooldown increase nerf a few patches ago, but I agree that adding it on top may just nerf her too hard.

Marshbouy5 votes

If there isn't any skill expression, what's stopping you from climbing?

Mast3rShake30 votes

If there isn't any chocolate, what's stopping you from going for a drive?

That is about how relevant your comment is to the topic.

Marshbouy2 votes

If it doesn't take any skill to play the game, kill others, and win the game, what's stopping people from climbing up in rank?

DrCyanide32 votes

Skill Expression generally refers to micro decisions. The opportunities you have to react to what your opponent does, their reaction to that, back and forth until one of you falls short. He is right in saying that has diminished thanks to shortened engagement time (again thanks to burst).

Climbing is dependant on winning. Macro decisions, completely separate from what this post is talking about, are a big factor in winning. Macro decisions also tend to rely more on what teammates are doing. A teammate in the wrong place completely ruins a macro play, while not effecting micro plays of individuals.

I'm afraid Mast3rShake was right, climbing isn't what's being discussed here.

Darkone70012 votes

This man is right.

hi its Miny5 votes

Man, this post embodies everything I feel this season. All of my old Jungle Mains that I loved in season 6 are so boring and monotonous to play. Shaco, for example is just about pressing Q and autoing for an easy kill. No skill required.

Pika Fox4 votes

Ah yes, more of the "i post on the boards im better than riot" threads.

Nyarlathοtep50 votes

Maybe because riot does awful job at balancing?

Pika Fox8 votes

According to who? I hate to break it to you, but their balance changes do pretty much what they want all the time, barring a few situations where some off meta thing gets to abuse something. You just think its awful because its not what YOU personally want.

AirKingNeo5 votes

According to me, according to people who play a lot of games, according to even some people who balance games themselves.

Pika Fox1 votes

According to me, many people who play, riot and others its ballanced. Honestly you have no credible sources or understand what riot is trying to do, nor the term "perfect imballance".

AirKingNeo6 votes

Leaving multiple characters broken for months (Kha'zix pickban for 5 months, ardent meta, zoe still broken, vlad broken for months on end, the current meta) on end is not "perfect imbalance" nor fun. That's a fact.

"Perfect imbalance" isn't even a good thing when you have people who clearly don't know how to do balance at all, with my already listed examples as evidence.

Midg3t6 votes

{quoted}

Leaving multiple characters broken for months (Kha'zix pickban for 5 months, ardent meta, zoe still broken, vlad broken for months on end, the current meta) on end is not "perfect imbalance" nor fun. That's a fact.

"Perfect imbalance" isn't even a good thing when you have people who clearly don't know how to do balance at all, with my already listed examples as evidence.

Why are you arguing with ARAM player? Just ignore him lmao

AirKingNeo3 votes

I mean I pretty much play a lot of ARAM rn because balance is shit, but yeah.

Midg3t4 votes

{quoted}

I mean I pretty much play a lot of ARAM rn because balance is shit, but yeah.

But you at least played SR, and you more or less know what you're talking about and can back it up. Him on the other hand, doesn't. He claimed that Phase Rush is one of the best keystones ffs, not worth wasting ur nerves on him xD

Karunamon36 votes

You'll have to forgive Pika, he's the resident "Riot can do no wrong" contrarian.

2Charmnot2Charm5 votes

B-bb-but they have diamond+ players on their playtest team!

Is the excuse people like Pika would use when someone calls Meddler and his low elo team out for being trash at their jobs.

GayFluffyUnicorn7 votes

It's no use when the people that actually "balance" the game just ignore the playtesters. Also some playtesters are dumbfucks themselves. I'm not going to name and shame but i will just remind people that a playtester came to the boards and said the galio Q buffs were tested and fine and we are all basically overreacting and "bad" because they tested it "in a competitive" environment. Ya tells you something.

Also having two adc mains, two yas otps, a cass otp doesn't exactly scream "unbiased". I dont even know if they even have a toplaner by now. If so it's probably an ornn otp.

ƒrostγ1 votes

We need a balance team with dia + players only. The game is balanced (mostly ) by silver/ gold players so its no wonder it is bad.

Håppy4 votes

As much as I despise this balance team, the "silver/gold" rumor is false. The balance team is low-high elo (plat/diamond).

Leetri3 votes

The balance team is already diamond+, sorry to burst your bubble.

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