And then he flashes into you for an unavoidable ult, followed up by another Q, for 100% of your health (possibly under your tower).
Very fun and rewarding game play.
BeatzBoyFTW73 votesLee Sin mains will still be like: "He's balanced, you just suck."
SwaggyMcGhee4203 votesHe literally just got nerfed. And he was balanced, people just complained about his early game, which is pretty much all he has besides his ult.
LatetotheRace6 votesWinning 15-20% of all games played (in the entire game btw) doesn't sound like a balanced champion to me.
SwaggyMcGhee4205 votesHe still had a sub 50% winrate, with one of the highest average games played (79 games). Playrate doesn't mean anything when the average Lee player has played so many games on him.
LatetotheRace20 votesPlay rate destroys that argument. The reason his win rate is sub 50% is because everyone and their bronze grandma wants to main the broken bs that is Lee. Just look at this play rate. 33%... That's 1/3 games you'll see lee sin. Does that not mean anything to you? Nothing? How depressing it must be to rely on one little statistic. If you want to see how broken everyone views him as, just wait until 10 bans goes live. We'll see a near 100% ban rate on lee. (Oh yeah, that other 16% win rate of every game played period, is legit. It's also quite significant when you think about it. 33% playrate coupled with 20% ban rate = 50% pick/ban. Every other game he'll either be banned or played.)
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesHow does a high winrate translate directly to overpowered? He's played a lot, and has a 50% winrate... He also loses 16.5% of every game, does that mean nothing? Just because a champ is played a lot doesn't mean they're op, it just means they're fun to play and a lot of people put him into their champ pool for that reason.
TheOneTrueBrand15 votesThink about playrate and winrate being on a teeter-totter
If play rate goes up, win rate should go down, and vice-versa If you look at low play rate champions, their winrate will be higher because its the dedicated mains playing, and high play rate champions will have a lot of unskilled players using them and so the winrate goes down.
The fact that lee has a massive playrate and still almost has 50% winrate is a huge red flag that he is OP right now.
I honestly think the easiest way to tune down Lee would to remove those 2 BS ministuns on his ult.
SwaggyMcGhee4202 votesExcept every Lee Sin jungle has an average of 79 games played on him. That doesn't sound like a lot of unskilled players are playing him, it sounds like lots of experienced players just have him in their champ pool. Even with this, his winrate isn't even over 50% and he just got nerfed last night.
TheOneTrueBrand3 votesEVERY lee sin jungle has 79 games? No.
The AVERAGE games played for Lee Sin is 79. Which statistically absolutely proves a ton of newer players are playing him.
The largest percentage of players playing Lee Sin only have between 15-50 games, do you think that is enough games to fully grasp and utilize a champion's full potential? Of course not, and even these players have above 50% winrate
And btw, for how mechanically intensive Lee Sin is supposed to be, his winrate with new players should be abysmal, since they would have to learn a lot before they would be decent with him, but his winrate with players with no experience on him is just below 45%, that means with absolutely no clue on what youre doing on this SUPPOSEDLY high skill floor champion, youre only 5% more likely to lose.
Still no red flags?
And one more thing, 49.9% winrate, that is basically 50% so you lee sin fanboys need to quit waving that around acting like .1% is absolute proof he is a perfectly healthy champion.
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesI never said every Lee Sin has 79 games. Undoubtedly there are some noobs playing him, but the majority of Lee players have 20+ games with him at least (more if you count normal games). It actually starts at around 42% which is what is to be expected. I don't know about you, but for me, 15-50 games is plenty of time to adequately learn a champ with a type of learning curve like Lee's. He's really not that hard to be decent at, just learn how to ward hop and hit Qs. Are you trying to say that you should be a master of Lee Sin to be able to have a 50% winrate with him? I think 50% at 15-50 games is fine, because it means they're decent at the champion, and therefore don't deserve a 42% winrate.
Btw, I don't play Lee Sin, I just don't struggle against him because he's not broken. I would rather see him on the enemy team than Shaco, Vi, Hecarim, or Zac.
TheOneTrueBrand3 votesHe isnt broken, just overtuned and annyoing and he is intentionally being kept strong by Riot.
And I never said u need to master him, but Lee is supposed to have a high skill floor and a massive skillcap, but players are almost hitting peak performance with lee in the 15 game range.
The difference between 15 games and 150+ is only 7%
If you compare that to other high skillcap champions such as Azir where 15 games is 34% winrate or to zed who has 41% at 15 games, lee has a higher winrate than that with ZERO games played before.
MohawkBird3 votes[deleted]
TheOneTrueBrand9 votesRiot LITERALLY said they want to keep him strong because he "adds a lot to competitive play"
In other words he brings in more money in the LCS.
In other words, Riot is playing massive favorites.
BeatzBoyFTW21 votesThere's nothing balanced about him when he's picked about 90% of the time compared to other junglers.
LolWutNaniQue7 votesYou people and your infatuation with balance. Of all the bajillion things that affect pick/win/loss/ban rate, you always pick the most untangible, unprovable one: "because he's inbalanced."
Why won't we just admit that we don't know the criteria for "perfectly balanced"? Give me an example of a perfectly balanced champion and compare him with Lee Sin, please. And good luck with that, because there is not a single champion who is universally agreed upon to be balanced.
What? Warwick? His HP regeneration is one of the best in the game and his late-game scaling is bullshit. He wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. What? Master Yi? You can alpha-strike dodge anything, get free tanking with Meditation, and he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. What? Amumu? AP Amumu blows the fuck out of everyone and flash+R literally just wins you games. Also, he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke. What? [insert jungler here]? His [insert skill here] does too much damage and he wins 1v1 against Lee Sin at level 3, no joke.
The forums is a considered a joke because Riot, still, after 6 fucking years, refuses to become or elect a final arbiter for gameplay balance. They just listen to whoever's loudest. No one's opinion is considered [expert].
It Hertz When IP45 votesYou people and your infatuation with balance.
People are obsessed with balance... on Gameplay & Balance? Holy shit, alert the freaking media, this is revolutionary!
LolWutNaniQue2 votesThe board's called Gameplay, chuckle-fuck. There's a sticky that says, "Before you make a post about balance..." which no one seems to read.
3TWarrior2 votesthere no longer is a forum for balance issues and the "gameplay" forum was renamed from gameplay and balance
Xavanic32 votesYeah, I'm hoping they severely cut his dmg to assert his role as a fighter, not an assassin tank hybrid
Flaherty5 votesThey're nerfing is ult damage by like 25%
Xavanic14 votesyeah...they just need to follow that up with a 25% dmg reduction to his q, like hes legit retarded right now, has 1 ad item, one shots basically anyone
Yenn29 votesThey're nerfing is ult damage by like 25%
Cool, now he'll have to auto you twice after his high skill flash + R + Q combo
Photos of Ghosts13 votesHis passive is there to help, dw
Elikain2 votes... his high skill flash + R + Q combo
http://25.media.tumblr.com/8d9817b095cbeed99a2b55a864f2dd3c/tumblr_mlk93lSkKr1qdm9u6o1_1280.jpg
Many other champions have the same flash + R combo, like Annie. And even Fiddles, but his order is R + flash into Fear and Silence. If you make an issue about one champion, then you make an issue about all champions. Don't go full double standard rtrd mode and single out a champion you don't like to face.
The game doesn't revolve around your view of balance.
DrCyanide16 votesRight, it revolves around Riots view. Let's re-read what they have to say about the combo.
Lee’s R-Q-Q combo is a death sentence to all but the most durable of champions [...] we’re taking the opportunity to reduce the strength of the interaction - maintaining Dragon’s Rage as a powerful displacement tool, but cutting its raw effectiveness as a pure finisher.
Someone who is not an Assassin, nor a burst mage, bursting you down was the problem. Your counter examples were a burst mage and a mage that I've never seen 100-0 someone.
Spaceman5pff3 votesWait, you have never seen Fiddlesticks 100-0 somebody?
Holy hell where have you been!? His ultimate has the single highest potential damage of any ability in the game. Fiddle can 100-0 your mid and adc at the same time if played well. Sure it isn't as simple as Annie, but Fiddle BLOWS people up.
A rather common fiddle play is to have a solo laner push their lane in as you hit level 6 with fiddle, and then you just ult them from over a jungle wall + fear them under their turret for an easy kill. You often don't even need to blow a summoner to pull this off.
already minus 5? I can't even figure out why :/
DarkPh0enix7 votesFiddle has always been an 100-0 champion. I don't understand why Lee fucking Sin a fucking fighter/juggernaut/diver/whatever had assassin mobility and burst in his kit INCLUDING FUCKING MISSING HP DAMAGE.
AMYS GRAVE2 votesThe base damage not the total damage. It didn't lose any of its AD scaling.
Flaherty2 votesWell 150 damage nerf is still something
AMYS GRAVE7 votes150 at rank 3, its only 50 at rank 1. In comparison Lee Sin's base AD at level 6 is 76AD, so we're talking about less than an autos (even if he has bought no AD) worth of damage nerf.
It's not nothing but damn.
TotalJerk1 votesYeah, I'm hoping they severely cut his dmg to assert his role as a fighter, not an assassin tank hybrid
He's supposed to be an assassin that ended up transitioning into a fighter/tank hybrid lategame because he falls off so hard lategame with just damage.
Bears Dont Care2 votesHe's supposed to be an assassin that ended up transitioning into a fighter/tank hybrid lategame because he falls off so hard lategame with just damage.
The term 'falling off" is often a misnomer. Falling off would imply despite building damage, he would be weaker than another damage based champion. This is not necessarily true, he is very competitive in terms of damage to champions such as Talon or Katarina.
CHampions such as Pantheon fall off. Lee Sin doesn't fall off in terms of damage, he is squishy just like any other all damage champ.
TotalJerk2 votesPantheon's damage doesn't actually fall off that hard either. It's just that in both their cases they fall off because when everyone groups if they keep building damage they will just get peeled and blown up before they can do anything.
RexSaur15 votesThey need to remove wardhopping from him, it turns his whole kit into point and click nukes.
DarkRitual1 votesMake it so Safeguard can't be used to cross terrain.
Incarceration2 votesNo that's going too far. Just balance out the power in kit from r and q to e.
Numbers could be like this.
Q-
100-150-200-250-275
E- 95-150-225-245-275
R- 250-275-300
Huge power in early game while falling off late game with his mediocre bases.
epic edgelord2 votesNo that's going too far. Just balance out the power in kit from r and q to e.
Numbers could be like this.
Q-
100-150-200-250-275
E- 95-150-225-245-275
R- 250-275-300
Huge power in early game while falling off late game with his mediocre bases.
thats kinda what he is huge early game spike but sucks ass late game
idontgiveabother10 votesI tried out lee sin for the first time in a normal game and I think half my kills were me just walking up to someone and kicking them in the face. That is obviously how the game is supposed to be played, no strategy, no insane combos or mechanics, just a press of a button.
Spicy Rice3 votesMost champs can be played like that. The problem is playing like that against people who know the intricacies of every champs kit.
ModAcademy Kayn7 votesJust saying, but lots of people can flash you for an unavoidable ult, that follows into a kill.
Yenn26 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N7ttKWV1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-11T07:31:51.067+0000)
Just saying, but lots of people can flash you for an unavoidable ult, that follows into a kill.
Except you can react to their flash in most cases, Lee Sin immediately prevents you from doing anything the instant he flashes. And it's made worse by the fact that he can do it without Flash.
Leetri3 votesAnyone with instant CC can do that, it's just not Lee Sin.
NoSkillWrecking19 votesDifference is their CC has some form of Travel time and can be dodged/blocked/abused by your movement/abilities.
Lee Sin's ult stuns you BEFORE it goes off, THEN he sends you flying as well.
Only other person that comes close to his level of BS is 
and her instant cast AOE Bear, but at least with her she can MISS by a hair.
CookyPrince4 votesI think they did add a small delay on her ult, at least from playing her recently her R doesnt feel instant anymore
Elikain2 votesNo, what you're talking about is Insec Lee ult. 99% of the players can't do that. And that is when you ult first and then immediately flash to hide the animation and appear as you instantly flash-kicked someone in the opposite direction. People have tried that many times but many don't have that reaction time or enough practice to pull that off.
Puttyblo20 votesNo, what you're talking about is Insec Lee ult. 99% of the players can't do that. And that is when you ult first and then immediately flash to hide the animation and appear as you instantly flash-kicked someone in the opposite direction. People have tried that many times but many don't have that reaction time or enough practice to pull that off.
The avggold LeeSin can do that now. One of the general Lee strats is to run Boots of Mobility and just run at people and do that. It's a 100% kill everytime and is basically uncounterable. You're grossly exaggerating the required skill level to pull that move off lol. I have yet to meet a Lee in plat + that can't do it.
Spaceman5pff7 votesEven if they can outrun you, you just have to wardhop into their face and kick flash. You don't even need to land the Q with lee.
LatetotheRace6 votesAre you trying to tell me 99 millions players can't just click 2 times, and push F+R. That's insanely insulting, or maybe you're just that bad.
Corvo Attano4 votesD Master Race
IA9hRfpP5q7 votes"your elo, my hands" - Lee Sin 
