Can Twitch's E refund half or all mana on minion kill?

Omiwom·Dec 18, 2015·49 votes·2,612 views

Kalista can casually rend to help with farming. Twitch cannot. Contaminate is way too expensive to use for anything other than all ins.

45 Comments

MatezoideDec 18, 201527 votes

What? No!

His E already costs 40 mana, stacks infinitely, has a stack passing mechanic and he is a hyper mobi---

Oh.

OmiwomDec 18, 20158 votes

{quoted}

What? No!

His E already costs 40 mana, stacks infinitely, has a stack passing mechanic and he is a hyper mobi---

Oh.

Don't forget a cooldown reset and a slow!

but this isn't a Kalista hate thread... Olaf urge to complain rising.. must resist

KnoyleDec 18, 20158 votes

I think the question is how can you compare BS Kalista to near perfection that is Twitch

BârdDec 18, 20159 votes

Their E abilities are very similar, except Kalista's E is objectively better.

I love the Ratman, but I have to admit that he shares a similarity to that embodiment of evil and salt.

Only Play DariusDec 18, 20155 votes

One is cancerous and the other is diseased. Neither of them are perfect.

KnoyleDec 18, 201510 votes

Except one has to get fed like it's Thanksgiving before anyone starts trying to avoid them.

Naomi CoffeeGoatDec 18, 201523 votes

Funny to note, Kalista's mana refund just got nerfed on PBE.

Timely VoidlingDec 18, 20157 votes

[deleted]

DeathBurstDec 18, 20153 votes

It was already refunded completely before if it killed 2 or more units. Just sayin'

ShatoSummonerDec 18, 20151 votes

Its only a nerf for maybe the first 10 minutes of the game where rend farming isn't very realistic anyway. Also, its 10 mana.

Remlap1223Dec 18, 201511 votes

Twitch's E just needs to be more interesting. My rough idea for reworking his E:

E - Catalyst.

Twitch instantly catalyses his deadly venom on his targets, dealing 13 / 16 / 19 / 22 / 25% of his total AD per stack as physical damage, and causing the remaining damage over time of Deadly Venom to proc instantly. All stacks of Deadly Venom are expunged from targets in range upon cast. If Twitch kills a minion or monster with this ability, the cooldown is reduced by 50%. If he kills an enemy champion, the champion will explode, spreading all of their stacks of deadly venom to all enemies within a 400 radius area, and fully resetting the cooldown.

BârdDec 18, 20159 votes

As long as it's name is "EXPUNGE" I don't really care about the specifics.

Only Play DariusDec 18, 20151 votes

That actually sounds awesome

Spicy RiceDec 18, 20152 votes

Please tell me it gibbs the champions it kills

ShatoSummonerDec 18, 20151 votes

SPY

iamdestinosDec 18, 20153 votes

It would be cool to have a little rat crossbones appear like a miniature green nuke explosion

Only Play DariusDec 18, 20155 votes

I would prefer they increase the damage. Contaminate feels absolutely useless until 6th item

Spicy RiceDec 18, 20151 votes

Its a really nice and unsuspected burst though. Most people don't realize how you can do near half their hp with contaminate alone

doombotMECHADec 18, 20151 votes

because you can't. like seriously that thing has a 1.5 max AD ratio you can just auto them twice for the same damage and probably faster too.

A Miss FortuneDec 18, 20151 votes

I think Twitch clearly needs a buff. He's one of the worst early game ADC's only beat by Kog'maw with no mobility, mediocre damage, and is probably the weakest scaling late game "hypercarry" as all hypercarries have strong AD steroids that scale well, Twitch's only steroids is his passive that doesn't even do more than 200 damage if you even manage to get that off and an unreliable AS steroid. I think Riot looking at his passive and his W which both feel insignificant throughout the game.

Maybe making his passive stack faster and his W actually do damage not related to his passive.

OmiwomDec 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z3s9eZsv,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-18T12:26:35.016+0000)

I think Twitch clearly needs a buff. He's one of the worst early game ADC's only beat by Kog'maw with no mobility, mediocre damage, and is probably the weakest scaling late game "hypercarry" as all hypercarries have strong AD steroids that scale well, Twitch's only steroids is his passive that doesn't even do more than 200 damage if you even manage to get that off and an unreliable AS steroid. I think Riot looking at his passive and his W which both feel insignificant throughout the game.

Maybe making his passive stack faster and his W actually do damage not related to his passive.

Twitch's early game is actually quite strong. He just gets mauled by assassins and any bit of CC. And his kit isn't very relevant while his ult is on cd, unless he's super fed.

A Miss FortuneDec 18, 20151 votes

Twitch's early game is by no means strong in comparison to Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Corki, etc. He has a garbage early game with his passive doing only like 30 damage, his W not existing outside of the garbage slow, and his stealth is only good for ambushing, not escaping. A strong ADC requires powerful poke and safety, which Twitch has none of. He relies solely on his team to set up kills for him and his entire kit revolves around him ambushing people or teamfighting, both of which are VERY easily outmatched by champions like Vayne or Miss Fortune.

MettanoiaDec 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z3s9eZsv,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-12-18T15:57:59.925+0000)

Twitch's early game is by no means strong in comparison to Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Corki, etc.

one thing, Miss Fortune & Caitlyn are suppose to be lane bullies, they dont really count here. and i agree twitch needs some QQL changes, but he isnt trash like you seem to think

A Miss FortuneDec 18, 20151 votes

Then what is Twitch? I just don't see a reason to pick him. He's literally outclassed by another ADC in every single category. I just don't see a single reason to pick him.

Poke? No. Miss Fortune, Corki, Ezreal, and Caitlyn do better.

Teamfighting? No. Sivir, Ashe, and Miss Fortune do better.

Mobility/Safety? No. Kalista, Vayne, and Caitlyn do better.

Late Hypercarry? No. Vayne, Jinx, and Tristana do better.

Burst Damage? No. Draven and Graves do better.

Crowd Control/Utility? No. Ashe and Sivir do better.

Dueling? Lucian, Vayne, heck even Teemo does better.

Tank Busting? Vayne is still a champion for some reason.

There's just not a single strength Twitch has that isn't always outclassed by another ADC or more.

MettanoiaDec 18, 20152 votes

is your point here that twitch has no specific niche? because if so then your wording your argument wrong. from what youre typing it sounds like twitch should be amazing at any point in the game in any pick. he can win trades, he can carry. he needs some work yes, but hes not unplayable.

Lady HammerlockDec 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z3s9eZsv,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-18T12:26:35.016+0000)

I think Twitch clearly needs a buff. He's one of the worst early game ADC's only beat by Kog'maw with no mobility, mediocre damage, and is probably the weakest scaling late game "hypercarry" as all hypercarries have strong AD steroids that scale well, Twitch's only steroids is his passive that doesn't even do more than 200 damage if you even manage to get that off and an unreliable AS steroid. I think Riot looking at his passive and his W which both feel insignificant throughout the game.

Maybe making his passive stack faster and his W actually do damage not related to his passive.

5 stacks on an enemy and bam you deleted their hp sure it aint easy to pull of but his early game isn't that weak if he gets 1 kill ahead he can be quite frustrating to fight

A Miss FortuneDec 18, 20151 votes

What are you talking about, even 6 stacks on an enemy during early game is only 72 - 108 true damage over 6 seconds (the damage would be almost totally nullified by a health pot and because it's a long duration DoT a champion's health regen lowers the effect of the damage).

Lady HammerlockDec 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z3s9eZsv,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2015-12-18T15:59:58.888+0000)

What are you talking about, even 6 stacks on an enemy during early game is only 72 - 108 true damage over 6 seconds (the damage would be almost totally nullified by a health pot and because it's a long duration DoT a champion's health regen lowers the effect of the damage).

did you forget that his E very clearly exists?

A Miss FortuneDec 19, 20151 votes

At level 1 if you have your passive on someone at max stacks and use your E while they still have max stacks on them you do 167 True/Physical damage + 25% bonus AD

Solidair3Dec 18, 20151 votes

Twitch is already operating at a 52% winrate in plat+ (Kalista is actually winning fewer games than him at 51% and has nerfs coming next patch). I doubt they are looking for ways to make him stronger.

If they were to give him mana return on his E, they would likely have to take power away elsewhere, and I doubt you want that.

Spicy RiceDec 18, 20151 votes

Honestly, i'd rather they change him. As long as he kept his ult, and got a passive close to what he has, i think people would be fine

kaltenashesDec 18, 20151 votes

i think it would be great a qol for his ult like the range in orianna's ball... i always have to press a to know my attack range when i ult, yeah i'm that bad

Spicy RiceDec 18, 20154 votes

its the range of your expunge. So, once you poison someone, when you turn on your ult, that ring is your aa range

kaltenashesDec 18, 20152 votes

OOOOOOOHHH... i wish i knew it sooner, thnx [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Dar RaksadaDec 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Twitch is already operating at a 52% winrate in plat+ (Kalista is actually winning fewer games than him at 51% and has nerfs coming next patch). I doubt they are looking for ways to make him stronger.

If they were to give him mana return on his E, they would likely have to take power away elsewhere, and I doubt you want that.

What are the pickrates and what's the average experience of a player that picks them? Of course it doesn't mean everything, but I'm curious now.

TransgressorDec 18, 20151 votes

Kalista can casually rend to help with farming. Twitch cannot

Keep comparing apples to oranges.

Can Twitch's E refund half or all mana on minion kill?

No.

BottleCapsterDec 19, 20151 votes

Other than Twitch's Expunge having a cap, and his passive dealing DoT, Their skills act almost exactly the same.

Its quite literally (Attack x times, then hit for a damage spike).. This isn't apples to oranges. Apples to oranges would be comparing Braum and Nautilus' passives. These skills function almost entirely identical to each other.

That said Kalista is getting her free refunds hit this next patch so she can take her time to at least make sure to kill two minions with it before getting free executes on her cs.

TransgressorDec 19, 20151 votes

Kalista doesn't go invisible. Twitch doesn't have infinite bunny hops. Kalista has to buy her AoE, Twitch has it on his R. Twitch's passive completely negates HPregen and early lifesteal, Kalista's not. Twitch doesn't have a knockup, Kalista can't just "throw" rend stacks on her enemies by using an ability. Rend is just a damage nuke, it can be used as an exectute. Twitch's passive and in turn Contaminate, add stacking true damage dps that's at the moment stronger than thornmail.

We could argue forever, but instead I suggest you go watch Qtpie's stream, and watch him play Twitch. I'm not the person to suggest you go watch this or that, but for this certain case, I think it's for the best.

BottleCapsterDec 19, 20151 votes

Honey, I'm not saying Kalista is basically Twitch. I'm saying Rend and Expunge function identically, and are mechanically the same in principle.

TransgressorDec 19, 20151 votes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzZlThoCMAElCF_.jpg

PS. No, they are not the same neither mechanically nor in principle, peace out.

Dr BirdieDec 19, 20151 votes

But Kal CAN "throw" rend stacks on enemies by using an ability. In fact, Kal can apply MORE stacks with one ability. Get a cannon low. Q it with enemy behind it, boom. 4 or 5 stacks in the enemy. While also damaging them with the ability itself, something Venom Cask does not do.

Also none of the things you listed aside from the "abilities applying stacks" and Deadly Venom's stacking true damage points had anything to do with their Expunge abilities.

MatteusDec 18, 20151 votes

http://%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%/?s=YrxEbwX

AzteryzDec 18, 20151 votes

in my opinion they should either do what you are suggesting or just flat out give him more dmg on his e/allow for more stacks if they want to seperate them a bit more