Why can Rengar throw his E mid-leap but Kha'Zix can't use his W

Omiwom··80 votes·4,844 views

One is a death root ffs... the other is just a slow

89 Comments

Pierce The Veal56 votes

Well it was originally because he could w while jumping, and his w would proc his passive and nuke like crazy. But then they wanted to weaken that playstyle without removing the passive proc on w, so they made it so he can't w while jumping.

But here's the best part. Once they realized that the actual problem was the passive procing on w, they removed its ability to proc on w and never returned his ability to w mid air.

Riot never goes back on nerfs,after all, they never make bad decisions.

pE4CbxDPQO4 votes

This exactly.

A Miss Fortune7 votes

Urgot MissFortune Evelynn Elise Kassadin Cassiopeia Twitch Zyra Zilean Veigar Olaf

Can't think of a single case where a nerf was unfair or poorly made.

Pierce The Veal11 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-12-26T03:32:28.631+0000)

Urgot MissFortune Evelynn Elise Kassadin Cassiopeia Twitch Zyra Zilean Veigar Olaf

Can't think of a single case where a nerf was unfair or poorly made.

Not sure if serious orrr...

A Miss Fortune29 votes

Evelynn was recently picked once in competitive play. I believe this is a sign that we need to remove her ultimate because it looks pretty ratchedy, this should seperate the good Evelynn players from the walking ward players.

Pierce The Veal5 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T03:41:08.823+0000)

Evelynn was recently picked once in competitive play. I believe this is a sign that we need to remove her ultimate because it looks pretty ratchedy, this should seperate the good Evelynn players from the walking ward players.

Have my +1

I've had people seriously argue that all those nerfs were deserved, while arguing that zed, lee sin, and a fee other champions were exemplars of balance. Ihonestly don't know what to expect from this community.

My Waifu Vanilla13 votes

Zed is actually the most "balance-able" and "healthy" of all of the assassins imo since he does not rely on completely out-statting your opponent to get kills like Akali, Diana, Talon, etc. do and can do decent from behind. Is he in a rather balanced state? I think so. The only thing I WOULD hit in his kit is his inherent waveclear early on to ensure he is always relevant come mid game, but besides that he is fine throughout almost all stages of the game and has the least amount of random burst in his kit since his combo is very telegraphed and does not have extreme power spikes where he randomly comes back to lane and kills you after you have been going AT LEAST even with them the past 10 minutes (like Akali with Gunblade).

Pierce The Veal7 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T04:32:40.278+0000)

Zed is actually the most "balance-able" and "healthy" of all of the assassins imo since he does not rely on completely out-statting your opponent to get kills like Akali, Diana, Talon, etc. do and can do decent from behind. Is he in a rather balanced state? I think so. The only thing I WOULD hit in his kit is his inherent waveclear early on to ensure he is always relevant come mid game, but besides that he is fine throughout almost all stages of the game and has the least amount of random burst in his kit since his combo is very telegraphed and does not have extreme power spikes where he randomly comes back to lane and kills you after you have been going AT LEAST even with them the past 10 minutes (like Akali with Gunblade).

I feel like you don't have a very profound understanding of assassins. None of them is really toxic. And most are not safe. One of the exceptions to the not safe rule is Zed. A good Zed player can completely make it so that you have no chance whatsoever to fight back. Besides Fizz and Ekko, no other champion can boast the same.

My Waifu Vanilla12 votes

I main Akali Top....and it is definitely not toxic at all when I can simply farm for 10 minutes, buy a gunblade, and then slam my face on my keyboard while hovering over my opponent for a free kill. Every. Game.

Pierce The Veal4 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T06:10:20.902+0000)

I main Akali Top....and it is definitely not toxic at all when I can simply farm for 10 minutes, buy a gunblade, and then slam my face on my keyboard while hovering over my opponent for a free kill. Every. Game.

Let's be honest. You don't need anything more than level 6 plus 3 stacks of ult. Gunblade just makes it easy.

There are quite a few toplaners who can deal with her if they're smart about it.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

{quoted}

There are quite a few toplaners who can deal with her if they're smart about it.

Like the ones who regularly buy pink wards

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-26T16:48:34.836+0000)

Like the ones who regularly buy pink wards

Fuck them.

No really.

But really, I was mostly talking about champions too tanky to kill, with too much cc, or champions like darius and garen who laugh at you.

But basically every other toplaner can fight back against her if they gots the pink eye.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

Most tank march ups are boring farm lanes where neither of us can kill each other, but I still come out ahead since I get a free pass at mid game and they just get tqnkier.

The only very difficult tank match up I ever dealt with was Maokai because he out damaged me all laning phase and had hard engage. Outside of him, the only other pain in the ass lane is Darius since Garen really isn't that big of a deal since I will rarely be the villian in laning phase and it becomes a boring sustain lane where he is much easier to gank and I can widdle his health bar down easier than he can do to me (E every time he goes for a last hit completely negates his passive and doesn't draw minion aggro).

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=000200010000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T21:00:35.528+0000)

Most tank march ups are boring farm lanes where neither of us can kill each other, but I still come out ahead since I get a free pass at mid game and they just get tqnkier.

The only very difficult tank match up I ever dealt with was Maokai because he out damaged me all laning phase and had hard engage. Outside of him, the only other pain in the ass lane is Darius since Garen really isn't that big of a deal since I will rarely be the villian in laning phase and it becomes a boring sustain lane where he is much easier to gank and I can widdle his health bar down easier than he can do to me (E every time he goes for a last hit completely negates his passive and doesn't draw minion aggro).

I like to roam a lot. So oftentimes I do have the villain mark.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

It honestly depends. Akali is one of the few top laners I still consistently take TP on since ganking bot is usually beneficial and worse comes to worse I have to back prematurely and pick up my longswords early or something and come back with 5 potions to tide me over in a "losing" lane. Other than that I don't roam THAT much outside of potentially disrespecting their jungler and killing them at a camp if they are behind or it is a literally free kill mid.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T21:51:36.298+0000)

It honestly depends. Akali is one of the few top laners I still consistently take TP on since ganking bot is usually beneficial and worse comes to worse I have to back prematurely and pick up my longswords early or something and come back with 5 potions to tide me over in a "losing" lane. Other than that I don't roam THAT much outside of potentially disrespecting their jungler and killing them at a camp if they are behind or it is a literally free kill mid.

Yeah.

I love to roam though. I love checking out their jungle, and also trying to flank their midlaner. Sometimes this may put me behind in exp, but if I succeed it oftentimes lets my team get quite ahead.

I'm considering fitting cleanse onto akali. Righ now I have to choose between that, flash, ignite, and teleport, and it's a tough decision.

RIP revive tele akali though. Usually meant you use up all your ult stacks, fight to the death, and play as both the engage and the finisher.

kaltenashes1 votes

my difficult match (as akali top) was versus nautilus, his e, lockdown passive and q were hard to swallow

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

People are always too late to buy the pink ward and 9/10 it doesn't do anything since you can't "pink ward the damage". Pink wards are only good if they are already beating me in lane.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

They have to start pre-6 Most of the more damage oriented top laners I know can kill Akali pretty well without her stealth early on

kaltenashes2 votes

tank > assassin, akali included

its not a easy match at all, makes me wish i was akali facing lux

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

tank > assassin, akali included

its not a easy match at all, makes me wish i was akali facing lux

Lux and Morgana vs akali sucks too :/

If they are fast enough they can deny you an engage and leave you hating your life.

But tanks can do that too :/

kaltenashes1 votes

yep, i like starting with doran's shield and get boots with item 3144 first, otherwise these mages shut me down in the first 5 min

and you need to be aggressive in these match, if you dont you're poked to death

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

yep, i like starting with doran's shield and get boots with item 3144 first, otherwise these mages shut me down in the first 5 min

and you need to be aggressive in these match, if you dont you're poked to death

Yeah that's what I found as well.

However I like to rush my revolver first. It gives a lot more sustain than cutlass imo. As for doran's shield, though it's great, I find it better to rush a tome so you can build revolver as soon as you back with ~800 gold. Idk though, I do start dorans shield vs a few.

48983507DEL12 votes

Not really. If an assassin is playing intelligently, he should be able to kill you before you have any time to react anyway, and most of them are point-click champions with nothing to really dodge.

The all have ways of being safe as well.

Akali has her shroud/spell vamp

Diana has her double-shield

Ekko has Chronobreak and his W

Elise has Repel

Evelynn has a giant f*cking shield

Kassadin has Riftwalk

Katarina has her resets

Fizz has Trollpoll

Kha'Zix has his resets and ultimate

Leblanc has Distortion

Rengar has armor/mr + heal as well as bushes

Shaco has his Q and his ultimate

Talon has his ultimate

Yasuo has Windwall, and a passive shield

Zed has his shadows/ultimate (still a shadow)

Yes, some have weaker defensive tools, with the weakest probably being Diana, Evelynn, Rengar, and Yasuo. But, you also have to account for their other tools, like Diana's massive burst and cc, Evelynn's eternal stealth, Rengar's stealth and bullshit 1-shot damage, and Yasuo's insane mobility and consistent damage.

The point is, most assassins have really good defensive tools that make them difficult to counterplay against while having ridiculous amounts of damage, and it's because they are ASSASSINS. They have 1 job, usually have 1 predictable way of doing it, and have low counterplay if they get into a position to complete their job.

I say get into a position to complete their job because their counterplay is usually precautionary, meaning you have to prepare to deal with them before they get in range to do anything. That goes for every assassin, because if they get in range to Lunar Rush, Chum The Waters, Death Mark etc., then you WILL die (granted they are decently skilled with the Champion). This means deep warding, letting your frontline seek out the assassins, getting your supports/tanks ready to cc the assassin once he/she jumps in, buying pink wards, and overall just preparing for the storm to come.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

{quoted}

Not really. If an assassin is playing intelligently, he should be able to kill you before you have any time to react anyway, and most of them are point-click champions with nothing to really dodge.

The all have ways of being safe as well.

Akali has her shroud/spell vamp

Diana has her double-shield

Ekko has Chronobreak and his W

Elise has Repel

Evelynn has a giant f*cking shield

Kassadin has Riftwalk

Katarina has her resets

Fizz has Trollpoll

Kha'Zix has his resets and ultimate

Leblanc has Distortion

Rengar has armor/mr + heal as well as bushes

Shaco has his Q and his ultimate

Talon has his ultimate

Yasuo has Windwall, and a passive shield

Zed has his shadows/ultimate (still a shadow)

Yes, some have weaker defensive tools, with the weakest probably being Diana, Evelynn, Rengar, and Yasuo. But, you also have to account for their other tools, like Diana's massive burst and cc, Evelynn's eternal stealth, Rengar's stealth and bullshit 1-shot damage, and Yasuo's insane mobility and consistent damage.

The point is, most assassins have really good defensive tools that make them difficult to counterplay against while having ridiculous amounts of damage, and it's because they are ASSASSINS. They have 1 job, usually have 1 predictable way of doing it, and have low counterplay if they get into a position to complete their job.

I say get into a position to complete their job because their counterplay is usually precautionary, meaning you have to prepare to deal with them before they get in range to do anything. That goes for every assassin, because if they get in range to Lunar Rush, Chum The Waters, Death Mark etc., then you WILL die (granted they are decently skilled with the Champion). This means deep warding, letting your frontline seek out the assassins, getting your supports/tanks ready to cc the assassin once he/she jumps in, buying pink wards, and overall just preparing for the storm to come.

Being able to take precautions against these champions can be considered as an efective way to counterplay them. When it comes to actually fighting them after failing to take said precautions, reaction speed is what matters most. If your team has similar or better reaction speed than the assassin, then you're in luck. The toughest part of that being that, as assassin players, we tend to hone reaction speed more than anything.

There are a few champions that might need more counterplay (namely fizz), but none of these champions are broken overpowered. They have a clear goal in mind, so maybe it's not a good idea to send your adc solo splitpushing.

Actually xPeke1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-12-26T03:32:28.631+0000)

Urgot MissFortune Evelynn Elise Kassadin Cassiopeia Twitch Zyra Zilean Veigar Olaf

Can't think of a single case where a nerf was unfair or poorly made.

Kassadin Got nerfed into the shittest of shit tier because he was competive in super high ELO. Riot LITERALLY nerfed everything from him. His damage, his silence, his "shield". And then they went as far to nerf his ult, the only thing that kept him strong.

I'm glad Kassadin is back in a good position atm, but he was shit tier after ulti nerf.

Maligaro Spike1 votes

a champ with such mobility must be treated carefully,if they buff the wrong thing his winrate can potentially skyrocket. Personally i would buff his waveclear a little maybe making his W E deal bonus damage to minions and slighty less on champs EDIT:I meant E should deal more damage to minions "facepalm"

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I like playing Kass a lot, but after all of the nerfs it feels dumb that I am pretty much pigeon-holed into maxing W first. Q costs way too much mana for how little damage it does and gives a rather lack luster shield that only lasts 1.5 seconds so it is extremely easy to just wait it out. E takes charges and costs mana and has gotten overly nerfed because it used to get maxed first. This leaves W which does comparable damage to Q, but costs no mana and gives you a LOT of mana on hitting a champ and makes last hitting extremely easy. It's just.....idk.....sad I guess that W is usually the "best" option since all of the other options are complete garbage tbh.

Maszii1 votes

Q damage is fine esspecially in a mages matchup

Jasiwel1 votes

It's worse when you realize they've done it twice to Kha'Zix. They also integrated 2 second intervals in his ultimate stealthing back when he still had Damage Reduction on his ultimate during stealthing. One of the main reasons behind the intervals was to prevent the spamming of the Damage Reduction. Then they removed the Damage Reduction on his R during Stealth and never at least tweaked the interval times.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

It's worse when you realize they've done it twice to Kha'Zix. They also integrated 2 second intervals in his ultimate stealthing back when he still had Damage Reduction on his ultimate during stealthing. One of the main reasons behind the intervals was to prevent the spamming of the Damage Reduction. Then they removed the Damage Reduction on his R during Stealth and never at least tweaked the interval times.

Better nerf Kha'Zix amirite? I don't know why it is, but Riot is simply unwilling to revert their design decisions, even one mistake veing fixed could prevent the need for an entire rework.

I blame bureacracy and irresponsibility.

Jasiwel2 votes

I believe it's simply a preference in balance theory. Buffing a champion and then removing the buff are very different from reverting nerfs on features that have existed since the champions' start. Note for Kha'Zix and Sejuani, they adjusted such aspects of their kits most likely due to the fact that those features made them difficult to find a balancing point. Riot probably has the belief that all changes in that regard should remain as such for the sake of progress, otherwise they'd probably just bounce around numbers/features without solving the real problem they identified. It makes a lot of sense and actually works for the most part because it forces problem-solving rather than relying on numerical redundant adjustments.

That said, I don't find a lot of fairness in the persistence of Sejuani/Sion nerfs due to Cinderhulk's initial release a season ago. Riot stated the nerfs were the result of Cinderhulk, but when they nerfed Cinderhulk they also nerfed Sejuani/Sion even further because they were more or less tied to it. I think Riot should at least make exceptions when items are the leading factor for nerfs/buffs.

Kha'Zix will always be an argument and a debate. He brings out the best and worst in designs, whereas his design is awesome and also too good. He was basically a swiss-army-knife that only Lee Sin could put to shame and the fact that he could adapt to many disadvantages made him a solid pick. Then they nerfed his Evo-W (which was OP), nerfed his Evo-Ultimate (which was OP), and then smacked the shit out of his Isolation Range/Evo-Q (not OP, but people complained in 1v1s). It also brings out a lot of hypocrisy in the professional scene because everyone complained Kha'Zix was too strong and stifled diversity when Lee Sin/Katarina/Tristana/Zed/Fizz/Ahri/etc were all far more prevalent champions at the time (both SoloQ and Tournaments). He's one of the easiest champions to nerf because he has so many aspects to his kit and it's so easy to remove or weaken just one of them to take him below his competition. Players got what they wanted though because he has no teamfight capacity, requires professional players to be absolutely stupid, and is about as squishy as Tristana with none of the range.

I could talk all day about Kha'Zix. He was my main for two seasons until Riot basically made him impossible to play anywhere aside from the Jungle. Then they just kept nerfing him and only recently gave him life-support to prevent him from being Rumble/Evelynn-tier. He's doing absolutely terrible now, has a 5% pick rate at best and 46% winrate at best. They gutted the one champion that got me into League and it feels worse because those of us who loved the bug knew how to bring him down a notch without turning him into what he is now. I've been through a lot of growth in my understanding of League and competitive games in general as a result of playing practically nothing except Kha'Zix for two years. I think it's easy to understand if I think Riot absolutely failed that champion.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

snip.

Riot has no consistency.

Edge of Daybreak23 votes

This thread when khazix was busted. Why does khazix get a triple shot slow and rengar only gets 1 with short range! Yes I am ignoring everything that doesnt suit my argument but I'm hoping people ignore that.

Mob Psycho 1007 votes

{quoted}

This thread when khazix was busted. Why does khazix get a triple shot slow and rengar only gets 1 with short range! Yes I am ignoring everything that doesnt suit my argument but I'm hoping people ignore that.

except rengar has a stun/snare whatever his empowered bola is.

Edge of Daybreak5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mob Psycho 100,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-25T22:52:07.518+0000)

except rengar has a stun/snare whatever his empowered bola is.

You are correct. However it does not suit my argument so I am going to have to ignore that sir. Let us drink to bias!

Divewing1 votes

Actually it's completely valid, hes referring SPECIFICALLY, to the abilities being usable MID-FLIGHT of BOTH OF THEIR JUMPS. You are in fact changing it to suit by removing the jump from the equation.

ScatterPolice4 votes

Rengars "snar" is a skill shot easily missed or blocked. A guaranteed 70% slow which you can't dodge means you're dead.

That being said kha just has an over all stronger kit than rengar thus at the moment his numbers are slightly worse.

Yes rengar can instapop people even if it's 1v5. But he's going to give his life for it unless he's super Fed. Kha has a reset mechanic on his jump allowing him in and out. Plus tripple stealth. Kha has aoe, slow rengar has single target slow/stun (situational).

Kha just has more versatility in his kit. But they have talked about buffing him which I think kha needs (only number wise).

pE4CbxDPQO8 votes

Back when Kha'Zix was very good they took it away. He used to be able to and it WAS FUN AS FUCK he should probably get it back.

MrSlowDie7 votes

why khazix can deal 221 + 1.5 AD and 180 + 2.6 AD in a single spell? why khazix can leap wherever he wants, but rengar has to jump to the enemy? why khazix can go invis 3 times to reapply his passive but rengar can't?

because they are fkin different champion.

khazix need buff, but comparing him to rengar so you can farm upvotes is one kind of bad way to ask it.

Pierce The Veal6 votes

{quoted}

why khazix can deal 221 + 1.5 AD and 180 + 2.6 AD in a single spell? why khazix can leap wherever he wants, but rengar has to jump to the enemy? why khazix can go invis 3 times to reapply his passive but rengar can't?

because they are fkin different champion.

khazix need buff, but comparing him to rengar so you can farm upvotes is one kind of bad way to ask it.

Because taking one step towards an ally can reduce that to 170+ 1.2 bonus AD.

Aeolian Melodies6 votes

I would assume that because Rengar leaps on targets that he wants to AA when he's invisible or in a bush, rather than his jump being its own activated ability, that's why you can chain his jump and net but not Kha's jump and his spikes.

Tails Doll4 votes

It's actually like Draco said before, it was op, they removed, realized it was not the problem, nerfed the problem, never fixed it.

DrProfVibeCheck6 votes

Maybe he can't use it while jumping because its BUGGED.

HAHAHAHAHAHAhahaha......

...I'm sorry...

The Bearded Bard3 votes

You're right, let's take away Rengar's ability to do that.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-12-26T02:45:45.967+0000)

You're right, let's take away Rengar's ability to do that.

I feel like taking away champions' ability to go through with a combo just degrades a champion for no reason, and reduces their overall capability.

Nerf the skill floor, not the skill cap.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

There's already frustratingly little you can do as a squishy vs rengar. Even with sweeping lens, you can only see where he's coming from, you can't attack him now. While that does help you dodge a bit, you usually only have one escape, so he just has to wait for you to use it then boom, you've got no chance.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T03:22:20.940+0000)

There's already frustratingly little you can do as a squishy vs rengar. Even with sweeping lens, you can only see where he's coming from, you can't attack him now. While that does help you dodge a bit, you usually only have one escape, so he just has to wait for you to use it then boom, you've got no chance.

The magic to stopping an assassin is a team. Shocking I know. If a rengar tried to teamfight regularly or just run up to an adc without his ult I'll guaranteed he'd be dead before he could cast two spells. Meanwhile any crowd control non targeted spell or non targeted burst would stop him in his tracks.

Assassins are good in short bouts where they can blow their firepower all in a short amount of time before trying to get away. The fact that you always want to be able to fight back, even with a single item (not even one you spend money on), means that you really just don't want assassins to be viable. They try to take advantage of openings. They benefit from good ward coverage, but the enemy having good ward coverage also hurts them.

Guess what happens if you knew where Rango ulted from? Then you can simply group with some teammates and play it safe. The answer to almost any assassin is good vision control and teamplay.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

The magic to stopping an assassin is a team. Shocking I know.

Nami Oh, sure. When the squishy dies... Soraka ...It's all my fault. Janna But when the squishy lives... Sona ...It was a team effort. Taric I see how it is.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WgfIpARd,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T07:01:48.308+0000)

Nami Oh, sure. When the squishy dies... Soraka ...It's all my fault. Janna But when the squishy lives... Sona ...It was a team effort. Taric I see how it is.

Hey hey!

As an assassin main, I can say that the people I appreciate most are supports. Their role is the exact opposite of an assassin's, and that's why both assassins and supports are not appreciated or liked.

You save adcs, we kill them, and everyone else thinks neither of us should exist.

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