As a Vladimir main, my only fear if they nerf him is if they Kha'Zix' him

YumaS2Astral··25 votes·4,289 views

I know that he is strong, he doesn't need nerfs now, but will probably need, after the AP item changes.

However, there are two things that I am afraid of:

  1. People still don't learn how to counter Vlad, I've realized that most people just don't know how to capitalize on Vladimir's early weakness.

  2. I fear that Riot will do to Vlad the same thing they made to Kha'Zix: nerf him repeatedly until they finally hit what makes him strong, but they won't revert previous nerfs, and Vladimir will be left on dust for a long time until Riot gives him buffs, but those buffs will be very minor.

90 Comments

HateDaddy26 votes

He's probably going to need to be reworked after these changes, though he's always needed one. He has arguably the lowest decision point ability in the game while it's also the most powerful: Q when off cooldown, no questions asked. I play Vlad too but he needs to be reworked overall, he's legit one of the most cancerous champs in the game.

Saianna4 votes

C'mon stop it.. Everyone wants to rework every champion older than 1 day. THAT IS NOT A SOLUTION.

HateDaddy16 votes

Riot has admitted that he is one of their worst designed champions. He's historically one of the most nerfed champions as well, which should tell you something about his design.

DeathToHeretics2 votes

More so than Irelia?

Kuroi863 votes

Irelia nerfed in 5 patches throughout history. Vlad nerfed in over six patches throughout his history. Vlad has been hit harder with the nerf stick than most other champs, the only ones that can claim to have had worse are Eve, Olaf and possibly Kha.

Sammystorm1 votes

I would probably throw rengar on that list.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Riot has admitted that he is one of their worst designed champions. He's historically one of the most nerfed champions as well, which should tell you something about his design.

They have actually apologized for making him if I remember correctly, lmao

Voluug131 votes

That was Xyphereous asking mercy for creating Riven.

James Stone10 votes

As another Vlad main, let me barge in and say this. He doesn't have an early weakness. I win almost all my lanes as Vlad because people think I'll be Poppy or Singed, an early farmer, when all I do is harrass them to kingdom come, getting ready to go all ham on lvl6 if their jungler dares showing up.

Vlad is, in my opinion, THE champion with the best lvl1 that plays top. If you know how to farm with your autos, he can save all of his Qs to his opponents. It's not unusual for my lane oponent to be at half health at lvl2. He remains strong throughout the lane, and at lvl9, if he has 4 stacks on his E, he can easily double the jungler.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not the lvl2 all-iners and lane bullies than win against a vlad. Riven, Irelia, Wukong? I'll just bring them to half health, put a point in W at lvl2 and out-trade them. It's the people with inherit tankiness, who can survive the early levels and scale well into the late game. Sion, Cho'Gath, hell even Nautilus, people who survive and with enough CC to lock down Vlad for when the jungler comes.

His counters come with intelligent playmaking, jungler support and the ability to lock him down for somebody else to finish the job. This new itemization changes, twice-more if the Abyssal Rework goes through, will push Vlad over the edge, and make him completely unstoppable if he gets ahead, instead of nearly.

BigPooStorm1 votes

His counters are champions with high damage and reliable gap closers, like Riven and Irelia. Sorry, but if the Riven and Irelia players you face are getting taken to half HP by a skill on a 10 second CD, then they're just bad. Also Irelia should have enough sustain with her W + flask that she should be fine until she's strong enough to all in and chunk you.

James Stone2 votes

{quoted}

His counters are champions with high damage and reliable gap closers, like Riven and Irelia. Sorry, but if the Riven and Irelia players you face are getting taken to half HP by a skill on a 10 second CD, then they're just bad. Also Irelia should have enough sustain with her W + flask that she should be fine until she's strong enough to all in and chunk you.

Honestly, same thing can be said for your Vlad skills. I'm perfectly able to do so after playing against people with multiple tiers. I have played against Plat and Diamond friends, one of them Riven mains, and I can consistently beat them. The damage calculations favors a cautious yet aggressive Vlad. Riven straight up loses against a Vlad who takes pool at lvl2 and another point in Q at lvl3. She can't do anything that Vlad can't do right back to her, and he can heal it up easily while she cannot.

And against Irelia, she does have enough sustain to engage on me at full health. However, the constant poke and harrass will leave her with little to no healing consumables left. If she started flask, she started with no combat power while I started with Amp. Tome, which allows me to duel her at lvl4 fairly easily.

BigPooStorm3 votes

I took a quick look at your OP.gg and saw the game 1v1 you played with your "diamond" Riven main friend, and he is not diamond, he's in Gold 3, and you lost. Right when I saw the whole "I play against diamond level players" I knew you were overexaggerating. And yes, the fact remains, if your opponents are getting chunked to half their HP with a skill on a 10 second CD at level 1, they aren't very skilled.

Anyone who knows anything about this game knows that a well played Riven and Irelia counter Vlad hard. You on the other hand think Vlad somehow counters them, because he has the "strongest level 1", which is honestly laughable. His Q isn't very hard hitting at level 1, and it's on a high cooldown, not to mention the only defense he has against people who can gap close on him is his pool, which takes off 20% of his current HP and is on a 26 second CD.

James Stone2 votes

{quoted}

I took a quick look at your OP.gg and saw the game 1v1 you played with your "diamond" Riven main friend, and he is not diamond, he's in Gold 3, and you lost. Right when I saw the whole "I play against diamond level players" I knew you were overexaggerating. And yes, the fact remains, if your opponents are getting chunked to half their HP with a skill on a 10 second CD at level 1, they aren't very skilled.

Anyone who knows anything about this game knows that a well played Riven and Irelia counter Vlad hard. You on the other hand think Vlad somehow counters them, because he has the "strongest level 1", which is honestly laughable. His Q isn't very hard hitting at level 1, and it's on a high cooldown, not to mention the only defense he has against people who can gap close on him is his pool, which takes off 20% of his current HP and is on a 26 second CD.

Fine, I see it's a lost cause. LBelieve whatever you want. We'll just wait and see then.

And, by the way, the hypocrisy of calling something laughable when you judge my entire statement based on one recent game is palpable.

Not to mention, you use distortion and libel to try and win the argument. DId I say my Q chunked them for half HP? That's literally impossible, even against a Sona. I said that when they reach lvl2 they're close to half HP. Let's says it takes 35 secs for them to get to lvl2. My Q deals, after resistances, 82.5 damage. 1-2 Autos for every Q, like I tend to do, after armor, contributes with 30-60 damage. If I Q every 10 seconds (realistically it's like 12) and give at least 1 auto after that, it's 377 damage. "About" half HP. Irelia will have to consume at least 2 pots and 1 flask charge to get her full health back. Riven will have to get shield at lvl1 not to get to half HP. Plus, even if they play smart I still successfully zoned them during the time they need to create an advantage.

And if you need to use your pool more with more than 26 seconds then you're the one who has a problem.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

As a Vlad main I must say: The only champion that gives serious problems to me is Riven, she can all-in me and there is nothing I can do against that. She is resourceless just like Vlad, and while she doesn't have sustain at all, her outstanding damage and CC is too much for Vlad, he will not be able to sustain through that.

The only other champion that used to be as much of a problem as Riven was Fizz, but due to the nerfs, and his loss of Griveous Wounds, he is a lot easier to deal with as Vlad.

Irelia is a skill based matchup. She is only a counter if you aren't experienced, otherwise Irelia is a matchup that is somewhat hard early but can be won, and Vladimir will always outscale her. Unlike Riven, Irelia has a predictable and conditional CC, is mana dependent, and while she has sustain, it isn't enough to outsustain Vlad.

James Stone1 votes

{quoted}

As a Vlad main I must say: The only champion that gives serious problems to me is Riven, she can all-in me and there is nothing I can do against that. She is resourceless just like Vlad, and while she doesn't have sustain at all, her outstanding damage and CC is too much for Vlad, he will not be able to sustain through that.

The only other champion that used to be as much of a problem as Riven was Fizz, but due to the nerfs, and his loss of Griveous Wounds, he is a lot easier to deal with as Vlad.

Irelia is a skill based matchup. She is only a counter if you aren't experienced, otherwise Irelia is a matchup that is somewhat hard early but can be won, and Vladimir will always outscale her. Unlike Riven, Irelia has a predictable and conditional CC, is mana dependent, and while she has sustain, it isn't enough to outsustain Vlad.

Irelia is hard early? Why is that? After level 4 you can win all fights if you use your minion wave to your advantage, and before that you can poke her hard at lvl1 to diminish her all in chances.

Riven is hard if you don't bait her spells, but she's too predictable and very easy to be exploited. Animation canceling can fuck Vlad up, but a well coordinated pool can turn the tides against her. Late game she can't be 1vs1'd however unless you're very ahead.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

No one can 1x1 Riven at late game, except Malphite, but Malphite can't prevent Riven from just going on his allies instead, except with his ult (and that can be countered with Banshee's Veil, which Riven will buy if she is smart)

BlownOffMyRocker3 votes

Jax, Master Yi, Fiora, Irelia, Nasus, Poppy, Trundle, Tryndamere, WarWick. Especially Jax, Poppy, Warwick can easily beat her late game.

Sammystorm1 votes

I think he meant that no one can beat a late game poppy.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Garen

jDVL20eCYs1 votes

i crush vlad incredible hard with kassadin in high diamond elo. but vlad is indeed toxic as fuck and deserve a minor nerf

James Stone2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ekko or feed,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z2GdGgPF,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2015-06-21T22:01:27.999+0000)

i crush vlad incredible hard with kassadin in high diamond elo. but vlad is indeed toxic as fuck and deserve a minor nerf

Kassadin! Thought I was forgetting something. A good Kassadin is an early game counter thanks to the instacast shield that ensures he always outtrades Vlad, and at lvl6+ can fight him with little fear of jungle retaliation.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=James Stone,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z2GdGgPF,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-06-21T20:02:47.313+0000)

As another Vlad main, let me barge in and say this. He doesn't have an early weakness. I win almost all my lanes as Vlad because people think I'll be Poppy or Singed, an early farmer, when all I do is harrass them to kingdom come, getting ready to go all ham on lvl6 if their jungler dares showing up.

Vlad is, in my opinion, THE champion with the best lvl1 that plays top. If you know how to farm with your autos, he can save all of his Qs to his opponents. It's not unusual for my lane oponent to be at half health at lvl2. He remains strong throughout the lane, and at lvl9, if he has 4 stacks on his E, he can easily double the jungler.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not the lvl2 all-iners and lane bullies than win against a vlad. Riven, Irelia, Wukong? I'll just bring them to half health, put a point in W at lvl2 and out-trade them. It's the people with inherit tankiness, who can survive the early levels and scale well into the late game. Sion, Cho'Gath, hell even Nautilus, people who survive and with enough CC to lock down Vlad for when the jungler comes.

His counters come with intelligent playmaking, jungler support and the ability to lock him down for somebody else to finish the job. This new itemization changes, twice-more if the Abyssal Rework goes through, will push Vlad over the edge, and make him completely unstoppable if he gets ahead, instead of nearly.

Ive had success against Vlad with Sion, Jarvan, Aatrox and Renekton.

HaxProdigy1 votes

Yeah but your gold 5...

Workshop Shaco6 votes

What the f*** did you just f***ing say about me, you little non diamond subhuman scum? I’ll have you know I got to diamond 1 at the top of my class in the lol academy, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Summoners Rift, and I have over 300 confirmed kills in a single match.

I am trained in Summoner warfare and I’m the top Tryndamere in the entire US OF A. You are nothing to me but just another bronzie. I will wipe you the **** out with plays the likes of which has never been seen before on this Game, mark my fing words. You think you can get away with saying that **** to me over the Internet? Think again, fer.

As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Diamond 1 overlords across the World and your Summoner Name is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, bronzie. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your Summoner. You’re f***ing dead, bronzie. I can be anywhere on the map, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with Tryndamere.

Not only am I extensively trained in Top lane, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Shop Keeper and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable bronze face off the continent, you little low elo sh*t.

If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” backtalk was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fing tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you filthy low elo trash. I will **** fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fing dead, non diamond scum.

You should try wearing diapers. I used to have accidents when I was growing up too. It used to really stress me out. Finally I bought myself a pack of diapers and started wearing them whenever I may not have immediate access to toilets. I felt so much better not have that worry hanging over me. Now I wear them pretty regularly. You should try it.

Why are bronzies/silver trash/gold trash/plat trash such perpetual posters about balance when in fact, they know nothing about the core design of this game. If you are bronze, it evidently means you are inferior than "humans" who are diamond; thus, I can safely conclude your logic presented on balance topics is below the threshold of what even a 5 year old can post. It also holds no base to support a thoughtful intelligent conversation amid us diamond players. Thus, we just ignore and dislike your post and move on. Please don't post garbage created in your incapable brain because it only makes society dumber and moves us back a 100 years in development. I also hate the fact that bronzies think they know balance that their post often show much vanity than proper information about the game.

Low elos should learn to stop back talking diamond 1s or higher. If someone from bronze has an opinion that differs from a diamond 1's, the bronzie should NOT try to reason with the high elo. He shouldn't ask why either. He should take what the diamond says as fact without talking back. Too many times, I've seen a bronzie backtalk a diamond 1, and it's disgusting, because the bronzie is wrong most of the time. The only time a bronzie is right is when 500,000 bronzies are talking back to a single diamond 1. There's a reason why you're stuck in bronze. It's because you think differently than the diamonds. Start thinking like a diamond.

America's place as the foremost world power is at jeopardy. Not because of middle eastern conflicts or China's economic awakening but because it does nothing to curb the tide of bronziocracy. American bronzies are given suffrage and even legal and reproductive rights despite having proved their inferior mental and moral status. In countries like Korea where being the worst at something is shameful people give their all to better themselves. However American culture celebrates mediocrity and encourages bronzies to merely stop playing the game when their self esteem might be tarnished by their inferior performances. Instead of sharpening their minds and, even more importantly, teaching themselves to overcome their inherent genetic disadvantages through hard work, American bronzies transition to smoking cannabis and having unprotected ***. They diminish their mental abilities even further while creating the next generation of bronzies. The only way to curb America's economic decline is the mandatory sterilization of all bronzies. While it would be inhumane to simply eradicate the bronzies America is already saddled with, their negative economic impact can be curbed by leveraging them as farm animals and mannequins.

Kouga1 votes

I have no idea what just happened here...

But it was entertaining to read.

xl Kirito lx1 votes

Someone let GD out.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Dude..... wtf is your problem......

Provengreil1 votes

Can we just let this copypasta die already? It's not even funny

Dextix LT3 votes

Vladimir's early weakness

HA!

No.......

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Just give him mana. Doesn't he like, have infinite sustain?

YumaS2Astral13 votes

Then finally item 3027 will be an extremely efficient item

BakedLotion2 votes

It's so easy to counter vlad early game lol. Just all in him whenever he uses q on a minion. Heck, even if he doesnt use it on a minion, and uses it on you, you still win the trade cause its on a ~10 sec cd early game. AKA, don't harrass. Just all in.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

That is the problem with the tank meta: most tanks can't all in him because they don't have the damage necessary for that. And those that do, can be outsustained.

Partholonian3 votes

So he lanes well against tanks, what's wrong with that? He doesn't do a tank's job in a teamfight (CC, soaking up damage, blocking skillshots), so if there really is a tank meta, his team will still need a tank that isn't him (i.e. probably a jungle tank).

BakedLotion1 votes

{quoted}

That is the problem with the tank meta: most tanks can't all in him because they don't have the damage necessary for that. And those that do, can be outsustained.

lol play riven top and see how much vlad cries. Heck, even fiora

What Is Smite4 votes

No, as a Fiora main I can say that Vlad is one of the more harder match-ups to win since his sustain surpasses your own. Even if you go Hexdrinker compared to his Hextech Revolver you still lose the lane because of obscene amounts of healing done from little cost to him. I understand that Vlad's healing is mitigated by how much AP he has to build in order to utilize his spellvamp, but when you compare him to Aatrox (another champion who uses HP for spells) then you find that AP is more abundant on Vlad's core items while Aatrox has to rely on his lack luster healing from W (if he is above 50% health). Bottom line is that Vlad bullies out nearly every melee champion in top lane just by throwing a couple of abilities out and healing up any and all damage he has taken.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=What Is Smite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z2GdGgPF,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2015-06-21T20:40:31.599+0000)

No, as a Fiora main I can say that Vlad is one of the more harder match-ups to win since his sustain surpasses your own. Even if you go Hexdrinker compared to his Hextech Revolver you still lose the lane because of obscene amounts of healing done from little cost to him. I understand that Vlad's healing is mitigated by how much AP he has to build in order to utilize his spellvamp, but when you compare him to Aatrox (another champion who uses HP for spells) then you find that AP is more abundant on Vlad's core items while Aatrox has to rely on his lack luster healing from W (if he is above 50% health). Bottom line is that Vlad bullies out nearly every melee champion in top lane just by throwing a couple of abilities out and healing up any and all damage he has taken.

That being said, Aatrox actually has a pretty decent time against Vlad.

item 3153 item 3065

RottedApples2 votes

Aatrox loves fighting ap laners in general

Only Play Darius1 votes

Good luck all-inning him at level 3 with someone like Nasus

DarthSpectrum2 votes

Riot has admitted that they regret releasing Vladimir with his kit in its current condition.

Vladimir either wins lane or doesn't. Besides the rudimentary game play decisions, a Vladimir player only has to be concerned with when to pool to avoid the most abilities.

His Q and E might as well be automated, because in 99% of the time, there is no reason now to use his Q or E while fighting. Even comparing to Annie, one of the most basic champions, Vladimir seems simple to play because he does not have to manage a stun nor a mana bar.

Vladimir does not have to orb walk since he is a mage, he does not have to manage minion aggro, he does not have to get in melee range and navigate around creep block, and since he is a resource-less champion with Spell Vamp, he can spam all he wants. Vladimir either gets a good match-up, such as against Nasus, or a poor one, such as against Riven or Swain.

I would much rather Riot just rework Vladimir to make him a better champion.

manliestdino1 votes

I actually think Kha'Zix is in a pretty good spot right now, especially with the recent buffs. Vladimir's design is just terrible and Riot themselves admitted he's bad design.

Shac Norris1 votes

{quoted}

I actually think Kha'Zix is in a pretty good spot right now, especially with the recent buffs. Vladimir's design is just terrible and Riot themselves admitted he's bad design.

khazix in a really good spot? he became a ''get 10/0 early game or lose'' champion, used to play him, now im wondering why the fuck i dont have refunds anymore so i can refund that piece of crap champion and his skin along him

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

It's going to be hard to pin-point what is going to need to be done after the changes come through. Not just on Vlad, but many champions that are going to benefit heavily from the AP item changes.

For Vlad though, I'm not sure what the best option would be. Should they emphasize his healing ability but cut his damage? Should they reduce his ability to heal as effectively and keep his damage? Or should they do something regarding CD's and base stats to keep him down in earlier parts of the game? Thematically I love Vlad, a "blood mage" who sucks the juice out of his opponents and hits them in the face with it. But his damage combined with his healing ability makes him extremely annoying and strong. I love that Vlad can build HP and AP to compliment each other, it's one of my favorite gimmicks in league: Singed Galio and Ryze have similar "fun" builds that incorporate different scaling mechanics (less so with Ryze now).

What I really want Riot to emphasize when they nerf or rework Vlad is to make his build much more... intelligent. Right now, Vlad pretty much goes for high AP builds, and why shouldn't he? He gets a lot of HP for the AP he gets. At 600AP he gets about 850 health if he opts for an HP item as his last item he can have a good chunk of health to work through while he is also dishing out high DPS.

I remember my first Vlad game ever. Back in the Season 4 preseason/Season 3 postseason. It was an ARAM and he was free that week, so I was going to try him out. I was pretty new at the game and didn't know what I was doing for the most part but I decided to just build against my opponents the best way I knew how. My final build probably looked something like this: item 3152 item 3065 item 3143 item 3047 item 3135 item 3157 . It was a really long match that we were losing for the large portion of the game, but we made a comeback near the lategame as I became nearly unkillable and it allowed me to deal a lot of damage in teamfights. I likely had about 350AP and 3500 health at the end of the game. But what I found is that if teamfights were very extended, my team would come out on top because of my R damage amp (which is INSANITY; teamwide DFG?) and my sustain throughout the teamfights; but if the fight was very short it meant that the enemy team had obliterated us and I was a nonfactor. It was a very memorable game as it was probably the first times I had carried a game, but I think I bought Vlad shortly after that.

What I want to see out of Vladimir is a way that he can use both aspects of his Passive to boost each other. Right now, the only health items you will see on Vlad is typically a item 3065 or a item 3116 with the rest being full AP items. But I want to go back to what I experienced in my first game as Vladimir. Itemizing primarily against your opponents to make yourself the strongest you possibly can, rather than what it feels like now when the opponent has to itemize AGAINST Vladimir because you need either MR or Grievous Wounds to deal with him as he sustains back whatever you throw at him and he hits like a truck if you have no MR. With the change to WotA in the works, MR is no longer a way to deal with his spell vamp as the healing portion will be at max strength regardless of resistances.

I think now would be the best time for Riot to get Vlad in a healthy spot though. They can afford to have him more of a tank that deals good damage rather than a high dps mage that can take more than a few hits. Think about it this way. If they cut a lot of his damage in his Q and E, he can still use the heal from WotA without needing penetration. So he can grabitem 3152 and item 3065 and use his natural sustain built into his kit in addition to the boosted unhindered heals from his WotA to keep him alive through very extended teamfights. He can then build up more tanky items and just become a super tank that can hit back. Taking Rabadon's wouldn't be that bad either as it gives you AP and HP bonus on top of the 120 AP you get from it that supplements both his heals and his damage. Vladimir is a champion who has low AP ratios on his abilities already (really being saved by their low CD's) so either reducing base damages or his AP ratios a little bit more might incentivise a more hybrid buildpath.

Those are my thoughts on the matter. Feel free to comment and share your opinion. Later. Peace.

Cloud Potato1 votes

For me, Vlad is a drain tank who can make use of both offensive and defensive items much more freely than other Bruisers. Drain tanks are typically unbalancable, but I feel like late game Vlad works just fine. His kit's play and counterplay are awful, but the need to be in the middle of a fight to deal damage means that there is a lot of decision making to be had, similar to how melee DPS champions have to weigh those decisions.

If I were to do a small scale change, I'd do something like Yasuo where his counterplay starts high but scales down with some stat, maybe Q's range scaling with HP or something. A full rework would be nice though.

TheSingularity1 votes

Vlad doesnt need nerfs I mean, hes been fine for like, ever so why change him now. If he's OP now then fix what ever riot changed. I'll smash a vlad in the face with zac any day of the year. Mundo, gragas or any other sustain based top laner will come out even or above vlad. And as they tank up they just gotta sit on him and whack him up.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

Of all those, only Mundo is an actual threat to Vlad, as Zac and Gragas can be smashed and outsustained.

Sammystorm1 votes

Riot has consistently hated vlad. he has been nerfed many many times and Riot has even said they don't like his kit.

TheSingularity1 votes

Then why not remove him? I mean I don't like it either. Its just so boring. Press q, Press q, press q, LEVEL UP!, spam e, spam q, REACH LVL 6, ult on occasion. I mean come on his kit is the most boring thing eva. A rock has more character

Sammystorm1 votes

Because people like him as a champ.

LICENSED HOOKER1 votes

i can see it happening, after all riot regrets making him.

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