The only thing I wanted out of the tank update was to jungle early and be able to defend from LeeSin

PapaGreg21·Apr 20, 2017·68 votes·3,401 views

As somebody that has basically had to stop playing Sejuani this year because Graves/Lee Sin/Elise can easily blow me up for my first three clears over and over, I was excited for the rework. I see Graves and Lee in roughly half of my games, which is ridiculous. I see no reason why they can't keep doing this to me after seeing the rework on the PBE. Heck, if I see the enemy pick Sejuani I know the game is over because I'll just sit in their jungle and starve her by taking her camps or kill her outright.

84 Comments

Big LincolnApr 20, 201722 votes

sorry, none of that

have some gimmicks instead

MelledoneusApr 20, 20173 votes

"Here at Riot Games, we like to say we're going to fix problems on the champs you like, but then replace their core identity with a new and improved mechanic that we will shortly nerf after release."

Mira Arya EntheApr 20, 201720 votes

Heck as a Shyvana main I CAN camp your ass and make it miserable to play Sej, Amumu, Zac or Nautilus jungle. And they did nothing to fix that.

RalanrApr 20, 201731 votes

Wonderful. Tank junglers have a weak early AND late. Why would I ever play one when I could play a CC heavy diver?

EndlessSorcererApr 20, 201733 votes

Masochism.

RalanrApr 20, 201739 votes

But I could just play Mundo for that!

greekvandaLApr 20, 20171 votes

cause they have retarded mid games to compensate.

RalanrApr 20, 20177 votes

Top lane tanks have decent early, great mids, and fall off late.

Jungle tanks apparently have shit earlies, which makes it much harder to get to their mids.

greekvandaLApr 20, 20171 votes

they still got absurd mids doe we cant ignore that. ( ofc ik their early is aatrocious unless they rush bami but then they run oom ) but champs like Zac/Olaf/ Amumu have godlike midgames.

RalanrApr 20, 201710 votes

Olaf isn't a tank and ADCs have godlike late yet they keep thinking they shouldn't have shit earlies.

Our late games aren't great at all. Our kid is when we shine, but tanks usually have a decent early because that's what helps them get to their mid.

I really don't like the idea of the only thing separating a support tank from a top or jungle tank is whether you purchase Bami's or not.

greekvandaLApr 20, 20171 votes

dont bring adc's in the discussion i want nothing more than to see this role be irrelevant for a while.

RalanrApr 20, 201711 votes

Then don't fucking talk about phases of power.

Cause I am not in the mood to argue about that shit without bringing up how ADCs and tanks fucking fit into that equation.

Can you fucking do that for me or do we need to stop?

greekvandaLApr 20, 20171 votes

why you so mad today LOL. w/e idc enough to make it a bigger convo.

RalanrApr 20, 20178 votes

Honestly I'm just seeing some dumb arguments for things and I'm getting tired of them.

No offense to you.

AirKingNeoApr 20, 20171 votes

ADCs are good late, but they're completely garbage outside of that unless they don't build Crit.

Sounds like shit game design to me.

RalanrApr 20, 20175 votes

And yet no adc seems to want to sacrifice late for early.

AirKingNeoApr 21, 20171 votes

Lucian? Ashe? They build very early game builds and fall off massively late.

RalanrApr 21, 20175 votes

Compared to other ADCs maybe, but compared to other classes? Not so much due to how ADC itemization works.

Unironic SJWApr 21, 20172 votes

ME ME MEMEMEMEMMEMEMEMEMEME MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 21, 20171 votes

adc have decent early thanks to item 3153 btw.

ChaoticPineconeApr 21, 20172 votes

Well, they fall off - yes. But they dont fall off as hard as juggernauts or Divers. I would still say their late is pretty decent due to their utility. I would rather have a Sej on my team lategame than Vi. Neither are going to kill the ADC, but Sej comes with a lot more CC, AoE damage, and a "clean" initiation.

And I dont know where this weird circlejerk came from. Maybe if youre Master or Challenger, you can complain about the state of tank junglers. Even up to Diamond, tank junglers like Zac, Gragas, Rammus, and Amumu sport over a 50% winrate. (Even in Master and Challenger, some tank junglers still do well).

People use Sejuani as the bar for tank junglers when they really shouldnt. Sej is the weakest of the tank junglers - of course she wont do as well vs a Graves or Lee Sin. But complaining about the state of tank-junglers because of Sejuani is like saying ADCs are weak and using Corki as an example.

RavenhaleApr 21, 20171 votes

This could very well be true because I have taken Poppy into the jungle and found her sustain/durability/safety to be superior to Sejuani across the board. Poppy seems similar to Naut where the issue is more about clear times. You'll be healthy but it will take you forever.

Sadly, Sejuani doesn't have a high enough damage trade off for her inferior durability. She takes too much damage for a minimal improvement on clear time. With the new PBE changes to Sejuani in which she is even less durable due to the change in her passive... I can already say her slightly buffed damage which now all rests on well placed W casts will not be enough for a lot of people to justify taking her into the jungle. She's going to be too hard to play with minimal gains in selecting her.

PapaGreg21Apr 20, 20179 votes

Yeah especially if the enemy is Lucian with BOTRK and Cleaver. It makes you feel like your tank items are made out of paper.

Kelly KApr 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wonderful. Tank junglers have a weak early AND late. Why would I ever play one when I could play a CC heavy diver?

Because they're definitely not buffing tank items and giving them new items also :DDDDD

RavenhaleApr 20, 201712 votes

Irrelevant. The issue is having a weak early game before you buy items.

Kelly KApr 20, 20173 votes

so what you want them to have a strong early and mid game and sometimes even late?

RavenhaleApr 20, 20174 votes

It just seems sensible that if a champion is a tank jungler, that they should be able to jungle before buying Bami's Cinder. You either do this by increasing their damage output or their durability/sustain. Otherwise there is no reason to take a tank in the jungle, which is exactly what Ralanr said. You may as well see how they function as a support or top laner.

Snowman ArcApr 21, 20171 votes

So what, you just make it pretty impossible to pick a slow jungler just because they have strong mid game? In any division above bronze and silver, those weak junglers will get abused to nothing. Having strong mid game while being level 6 and 0/3 while the enemy jungler is having 5 kill participationand 3 levels up isn't really ideal.

Tik115Apr 21, 20171 votes

Lee/Graves/Elise can have it despite being bruisers/Marksmen/Mages

Why Can't tanks?

crippler38Apr 20, 20172 votes

Because naut can cc the carry and the frontline at the same time with his passive and ultimate and hook?

Zac can pull people together, knock em up, then ult em to drag them or knock them around.

Sej will basically be picked with yasuo or yi or something I'd imagine, someone who attacks fast and applies a lot of on hits who happens to be melee. Maybe as a support for mordekaiser?

Mumu you'd pick probably entirely with say a Karthus or Kat or Brand, people who do massive amounts of magic damage in short periods of time to a lot of people.

Granted their early clears are weak due to their ability to be invaded but since tank items are cheaper well, there's a reason Ivern is really strong.

Hint, it's because he's a support/tank on a lee sin's income.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 21, 20171 votes

Tank junglers aren't weak early. They're weak to invade... but their gank are strong. Why would u pick a divers unless LeeSin ? Divers are also weak to invade maybe not Warwick Elise XinZhao

But outsides theses Tank have a better mid and are better choice if u considere the xp lack.

Ben SharpioApr 20, 20172 votes

ok so you obviously dont understand how tanks work in general. So i'll explain it to you. Tank junglers can force ganks while you have to afk farm with shyvana. So "camping" or whatever you want to call it isn't effective, because tank junglers can take advantage of catch-up exp, and easily make up for what they lose to you. Also, tanks don't need gold to be efficient. So, by you taking camps and feeling good about yourself, it doesn't affect us because we don't need thousands of gold to be relevant.

Isnt it cool how strengths and weaknesses work?

RalanrApr 20, 201717 votes

Tanks don't need gold to be efficient.

Often times it really feels like they do imo.

KoKobotoApr 21, 20171 votes

Nah, because Rito understands how tanks work most tank items are cheap cause you know the whole playstyle.

RalanrApr 21, 20174 votes

There's a difference between needing gold and needing a lot.

Mira Arya EntheApr 20, 20172 votes

Except that isn't how it works. Shyvana counters tank junglers because unlike Lee, Graves or Elise they are easy to countergank. Shyvana wins in most 2v2s over a tank. A tank wins a gank by CC'ing the enemy and delivering a minor burst so their laner can do enough damage. Shyvana is an anti-tank Juggernaut like Darius but in the jungle, she should be taking their camps and killing them at their camps, forcing them to try ganking, gank patterns are high predictable for champions not Lee or Elise. So you get their farm, get fed from killing them, and get doubles on counter ganks with your laner.

I stopped trying to play Sej and Amumu for a reason, tank junglers are far too predictable and helpless early game.

ChaoticPineconeApr 21, 20172 votes

First of all, Amumu has a higher winrate than Sej until you get into Diamond. If you are under Diamond, I dont think you can complain too much. If you are in Diamond/Master/Challenger, there are other options for you if you want a tank jungler. Zac and Gragas are very viable options in that elo.

If youre complaining about Sej in particular, well, my response is that some champions are just weak right now. Azir is weak midlane. Corki is a terrible ADC. But you shouldnt judge the strength of a class based on the weakest link.

Bladerunner7777Apr 21, 20171 votes

Wtf is Shyvana supposed to do if she can't counterjungle? Gank? Good one.

Mira Arya EntheApr 21, 20171 votes

The problem isn't that she counter jungles, the problem is that she is a meh champion and not even one of the meta-lord jungle gods, yet she still shits on tank junglers. The only thing shittier than tank junglers is Kindred and Fiddlesticks jungle.

QuortApr 21, 20171 votes

Fiddlesticks is fun though!

AcidTheWarlockApr 20, 20176 votes

Graves shouldn't beat tank junglers early imo, I think he really should focus on having a good late mid-late game damage rather than full Lethality murderness.

I don't jungle though, so I don't know.

DivewingApr 20, 20179 votes

Not exactly the most logical and statistics driven response, but here goes; Graves is just fucking bullshit

Bladerunner7777Apr 21, 20173 votes

No logic or statistics? The boards welcomes you

Bladerunner7777Apr 21, 20171 votes

Graves' range is too short to be a lategame ADC, so he shouldn't be balanced around that.

Graves has always capitalized on early/mid even before rework.

KingnewgameplusApr 21, 20172 votes

Graves always had a tendency to blow you up if you get close to him but at least old graves couldn't jungle.

Bladerunner7777Apr 21, 20171 votes

Jg and top are the only places he can realistically be played because of the nature of his autos

HueboneApr 20, 20175 votes

The worst part is, that even though Lee falls off after you lose your game, Graves just keeps getting stronger, so not only do they get to make you shit - they become better than you ever could be.

Hexs FortuneApr 20, 20172 votes

I think every tank jg has that moment when they realize they have no real answer to being counter jungled other than run the other way if you see them coming

OkamikaziApr 21, 20172 votes

Strongly doubt Rito is gonna do Tanks justice. currently tanks dont win games.

Been spamming Galio since re-work and couldn't climb out of Bronze 2. Once I switched to Renekton I got 5 a game win streak and got to bronze 1 in 1 day.